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Stannis is the One True King


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#281 hiraeth

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:07 AM

He'd be a terrible King. Fanboyism has clouded your judgement.


Edit: Let me explain my reasoning.

Good leadership : Constantly pisses off his men and purposely Alienates them - distances himself from them - that isn't good leadership. Robb (And Rob Bara and Eddard...) got to know their men and win their loyalty, Jon did not and in fact almost every encounter ignored the rather reasonable council of his advisers and didn't even try to change their views, causing more splitting away from him.

Upbringing: WHAT? Better than Aegon's? Although both of their heritages are unknown at the moment Aegon has a much better upbringing, he speaks multiple languages, has been trained much better than any average Lordling or their bastard son and understands ruling much better than most people in the Gots.

Justice wise: Yeah , guy's pretty sound and follows his conscience. Not much to say, really.

Stannis: He won't have to bend the knee to a disposed half bastard with a minor claim to the throne and then only if he conquers it. He'd slay him like Renly if he didn't bend the knee.

to Summarize he'd make a good master of Laws or small council member/ maybe Lord at best but as we can see from his stint as NW commander getting ceaser'd isn't being a good leader and nothing he does in that time is particularly good leadership, saying he's smarter than other candidates is folly too with the information we have on them, you're just saying that because you like the character - and he is a good character.

Also, his sense of humour haha, nice touch. Maybe he's just angry no one gets his jokes? /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />


Sorry, I'm too old for fanboyism - all I said is that Jon would be a better king that Stannis, not the best king there is...

Good leadership - the only one who does something to feed the people - remember the banker?
Pisses off his men? Some men... Would Robb have the same relationship with his men if he was a bastard they met a year or two before as a bastard-turned-commander?Jon needs to learn more, I agree, especially when it comes to his social skills and needs some sophistication, but he is by far better material then Renly, Daenny, Stannis, Tommen, Aegon...


Upbringing: Hands-on upbringing for Jon, fancy boy upbringing for Aegon... Harsh realities of life vs. cruising on an old boat with a mentor and a septa... Leadership and kingship is not learned from books... Languages... As far as I know, everyone speaks the same language in Westeros, except for the Children and some other people from beyond the Wall. Hmmmm, why is that even important when you are faced with the Others' invasion... Will they negotiate?

#282 Knight errant

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:42 PM

You call me a fool sir? /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />
What makes you think forming an alliance between two massively powerful houses during a time of upheaval that allows you to jump the line of succession through force of arms and political savvy is luck?

When Ned spelled out his idiotic plan in Kings Landing and Renly tried to save him from himself...to no avail...was that luck?

I would say luck was having your estranged bored housewife join a cult which brought you a mistress who birthed demon assassins who murdered your brother before his inevitable triumph much closer to luck.

Then again i am a fool /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


Hardly a cult haha unless the seven are a cult too, it was lucky just be being the younger son of a king he could marry anyone and the Tyrells happened to have a girl of marrying age he'd been in contact with. He'd be a corrupt and ineffective leader from all I've seen , Robert come again but much, much worse.

#283 Knight errant

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:47 PM

Sorry, I'm too old for fanboyism - all I said is that Jon would be a better king that Stannis, not the best king there is...

Good leadership - the only one who does something to feed the people - remember the banker?
Pisses off his men? Some men... Would Robb have the same relationship with his men if he was a bastard they met a year or two before as a bastard-turned-commander?Jon needs to learn more, I agree, especially when it comes to his social skills and needs some sophistication, but he is by far better material then Renly, Daenny, Stannis, Tommen, Aegon...


Upbringing: Hands-on upbringing for Jon, fancy boy upbringing for Aegon... Harsh realities of life vs. cruising on an old boat with a mentor and a septa... Leadership and kingship is not learned from books... Languages... As far as I know, everyone speaks the same language in Westeros, except for the Children and some other people from beyond the Wall. Hmmmm, why is that even important when you are faced with the Others' invasion... Will they negotiate?


That isn't good leadership, that's necessity to say no leader would do the same in his situation is stupid, he needs men alive so he keeps them alive, circumstance allows him to do so. Good leadership *Rolls eyes*. Had the Banker not been there, what then?

No he is hardly better material than Stannis or Aegon, they are better rulers. He almost wants his own men to betray him the way he acts to a lot of them. Out of all the rulers who's been stabbed by their own men? (Does Robb apply to that too? Guess it runs in the family...). No he lacks a lot of the stuff Stannis and Aegon have, it's more than being a bastard. Many of the NW are low born, they don't care he's a bastard, in fact it's better as he at least has some noble blood. Give me an actual group of examples of his good leadership, in dealing with problems, commanding in battle or organizing/stopping hostilities. Stannis' mixed force has more cohesion than his NW/wildling alliance.

#284 MtnLion

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:08 PM

That isn't good leadership, that's necessity to say no leader would do the same in his situation is stupid, he needs men alive so he keeps them alive, circumstance allows him to do so. Good leadership *Rolls eyes*. Had the Banker not been there, what then?

No he is hardly better material than Stannis or Aegon, they are better rulers. He almost wants his own men to betray him the way he acts to a lot of them. Out of all the rulers who's been stabbed by their own men? (Does Robb apply to that too? Guess it runs in the family...). No he lacks a lot of the stuff Stannis and Aegon have, it's more than being a bastard. Many of the NW are low born, they don't care he's a bastard, in fact it's better as he at least has some noble blood. Give me an actual group of examples of his good leadership, in dealing with problems, commanding in battle or organizing/stopping hostilities. Stannis' mixed force has more cohesion than his NW/wildling alliance.

Why does Stannis' force have cohesion? Because Jon explained to him how to achieve it. There are elements in any group that will resent the appointed leadership leadership, and be willing to turn dissent against that leadership. Jon had explained himself to Bowen Marsh many a time, and Bowen was too short-sighted to understand. Bowen was not low-born, either, so we really don't know whether Jon's status had anything to do with his resentment of Jon, but we do know that it had a lot to do with Alliser's. Jon is doing the best that he can with the resources at hand. What really caused him the most grief was having to send his supporters away to keep things in order at remote locations. He could only keep his enemies close.

So, what great leaders in history have dealt with mutinies and assassinations? Julius Cesar, John Kennedy . . . There are more, but you get the idea.

#285 Nick Baratheon

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:15 PM

That's the exact problem Robert's Rebellion created. Without the Targ line, the throne is meaningless. The Starks and Greyjoys were right, let the kingdoms go their own way.


My opinion exactly!

#286 Knight errant

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:22 PM

Why does Stannis' force have cohesion? Because Jon explained to him how to achieve it. There are elements in any group that will resent the appointed leadership leadership, and be willing to turn dissent against that leadership. Jon had explained himself to Bowen Marsh many a time, and Bowen was too short-sighted to understand. Bowen was not low-born, either, so we really don't know whether Jon's status had anything to do with his resentment of Jon, but we do know that it had a lot to do with Alliser's. Jon is doing the best that he can with the resources at hand. What really caused him the most grief was having to send his supporters away to keep things in order at remote locations. He could only keep his enemies close.

So, what great leaders in history have dealt with mutinies and assassinations? Julius Cesar, John Kennedy . . . There are more, but you get the idea.


Telling someone where to get men isn't leadership; it's local knowledge. How was Stannis supposed to know the location of villages not on the map and people never mentioned outside of the North, a place he's never been?

I can argue why they aren't good leaders (JFK and such), more bad ones have had to deal with assassination attempts too...

No he just puts Bowen down without good explanation nor does he try to convince Bowen to see his way of thinking he falls into Bowens trap and just goes "Oh he's a stupid person A who will never understand the great concept B", Bowen expresses real concerns and Jon brushes them off. The Weeper for example. He just tells them to let the weeper and all his men through with no other precautions, Bowen raises his concern and Jon does nothing to belay it, thus bad leadership he can't lead his men. Jon is Bowen in reverse and believes his own cause is right. There are times when he must listen to his advisers he's more stubborn than my man Stannis at some points.

In the matter of garrisons he could've sent anyone reasonable, he didn't need to trust them but be aware of their strengths and weaknesses. He'd actually know what they are if he bothered to get to know the men he leads so well.

Jon is a good character but not a good leader. Robb was the leader of the Stark family.

#287 By the Old Gods Not theNew

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:47 PM

Jon's a much better leader than you give him credit for. As both Mance and Stannis indicate Jon's leadership at CB was both unexpected and essential to thwarting Mance's effort to break through the Wall. He did more w/ less than more seasoned commanders at Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower. He has on numerous occasion tried to explain to B-Marsh et. al. why it's necessary to bring the wildlings south of the Wall. He's won the loyalty of numerous watchmen (Satin, Edd, Sam, and the rest of the crew). He's won the loyalty of many of the wildlings that have come south of the Wall. He's figured out how to feed both the NW and the Free Folk. He's remanned numerous strongholds along the Wall.

and in response to the OP no Stannis is not the "one true king" he's one of a number of contenders.

Edited by By the Old Gods Not theNew, 12 December 2012 - 06:51 PM.


#288 Knight errant

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:06 PM

Jon's a much better leader than you give him credit for. As both Mance and Stannis indicate Jon's leadership at CB was both unexpected and essential to thwarting Mance's effort to break through the Wall. He did more w/ less than more seasoned commanders at Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower. He has on numerous occasion tried to explain to B-Marsh et. al. why it's necessary to bring the wildlings south of the Wall. He's won the loyalty of numerous watchmen (Satin, Edd, Sam, and the rest of the crew). He's won the loyalty of many of the wildlings that have come south of the Wall. He's figured out how to feed both the NW and the Free Folk. He's remanned numerous strongholds along the Wall.

and in response to the OP no Stannis is not the "one true king" he's one of a number of contenders.


There, okay he's alright. Not exceptional. Most of that battle was commanded and planned by good ol' Donan Noyle (Or something like that I forget, R.I.P forgettable guy) - who ever one forgets, ironically me too. He planned for the siege then died leaving Jon to just slot in and not do much. It's hard to lose a siege when you're defending the known worlds largest wall. He's had some achievements but no more than anyone else. Look at Robbs, or Stannis' or Aegons or even at a pinch Dany's victories and stuff, he's not that amazing. People overrate him.

He could've tried harder, he says something to Bowen like twice, figured out? A BANKER showed up at his door, anyone could've put two and two together. It's obvious why he needs to bring the wildlings south of the wall. He's a good leader but not that amazing and he hasn't even got a claim to the throne...

I'd class good leadership as Robb in the whispering wood. Medieval tactics were 50% planning and 50% standing out to your men on the battlefield for them to follow and follow the example of etc. I'm studying some medieval history and Jon doesn't really get that whole presenting yourself and leading your men properly, he isolates himself from them it seems. Mel mentions the "trappings of power"...

#289 By the Old Gods Not theNew

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:30 PM

Jon was on the Wall commanding from the front. He took an arrow and kept fighting night and day w/ a ragtag bunch, that impressed both the Mance and Stan. He went out and parleyed w/ Mance and came back w/ Val and Mance's baby. He was captured by the wildlings and successfully thwarted their attempt to march through CB. Jon has stood out in battle. Stannis as well as others have taken notice. He's also shown planning skills by defending CB and advising Stan, who w/out his planning sessions w/ Jon would have blundered forward w/out any chance of defeating the Boltons.

Mel was referring to herself, not Jon. And what is Lightbringer if not the "trappings of power"?

#290 MtnLion

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:44 PM

Take it from an old age leader, Robb was good, Jon is brilliant. (Been in the military since 18, and am 61.)

#291 Guardian of the Lhazareen

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:49 PM

I do love the opertunity to critisise Stannis (though it does bring the fan boys down hard on me)

well here we go - overrated military comander.
religiously intolerent
adoulterouse
craven
kinslayer
user of underhand cowardly tactics
really douchy in his handing out of justice
hipocrite
cold and booring
distanced from everyone
bad at playing the game

#292 hiraeth

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:44 AM

That isn't good leadership, that's necessity to say no leader would do the same in his situation is stupid, he needs men alive so he keeps them alive, circumstance allows him to do so. Good leadership *Rolls eyes*. Had the Banker not been there, what then?

No he is hardly better material than Stannis or Aegon, they are better rulers. He almost wants his own men to betray him the way he acts to a lot of them. Out of all the rulers who's been stabbed by their own men? (Does Robb apply to that too? Guess it runs in the family...). No he lacks a lot of the stuff Stannis and Aegon have, it's more than being a bastard. Many of the NW are low born, they don't care he's a bastard, in fact it's better as he at least has some noble blood. Give me an actual group of examples of his good leadership, in dealing with problems, commanding in battle or organizing/stopping hostilities. Stannis' mixed force has more cohesion than his NW/wildling alliance.


What provisions has Stannis made to feed his army marching on Winterfell in the middle of winter? He's men are practicing cannibalism, while he's isolating and distancing himself... In addition, he is burning people in obscure rituals, which is something Jon has never done... As to cohesion of his forces - they stay together only because the Northmen have their own agenda currently complying to Stannis' agenda... He's men are dying of hunger and cold, I guess that's a good cohesive factor...

As for Aegon, even if he is not a fake, there have been many attempts throughout history to make an enlightened and educated ruler, some of them were moderate successes some of them complete blander... The things Jon went through and survived on the Wall and beyond are something Aegon will never do in a million years... He's just a stubborn kid, bright and attractive, but he has never been in a situation to make life-or-death decisions - what would he do if he was faced with the task of killing Qhorin Halfhand... He was never exposed to situations like that...

#293 Inara

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:28 AM

As for Aegon, even if he is not a fake, there have been many attempts throughout history to make an enlightened and educated ruler, some of them were moderate successes some of them complete blander... The things Jon went through and survived on the Wall and beyond are something Aegon will never do in a million years... He's just a stubborn kid, bright and attractive, but he has never been in a situation to make life-or-death decisions - what would he do if he was faced with the task of killing Qhorin Halfhand... He was never exposed to situations like that...


First, I think it's incorrect to assume that experiencing hardships make a great leader. In Westeros, a hard life is the rule rather than the exception, and there is nothing to say that not experiencing hardships precludes a man from being a good king. Some people are empathetic enough that even if they didn't suffer themselves, they can relate to the suffering of others. That is more important than just merely experiencing difficult events. Take Sansa vs. Shae - Shae's background is a lot harsher, and she's seen and done things that Sansa has never had to do. But Sansa's growing ability to empathize with people is what makes her a good person and one day, a good lady.

Secondly, we don't know what exactly Aegon went through in the first 16 years of his life. Given the way they lived on Essos, constantly going from place to place, hiding their identity, living as poor travelers, it's likely that Aegon has seen and experienced some of the same hardships as Jon. In fact, until Jon joined the Night's Watch, I'd say Aegon and Jon were equal. Jon was treated poorly by Catelyn, but in all other accounts, he was well-take care of in Winterfell, receiving the same training and education as Robb, had the highest quality arms and clothing, and never went to bed with an empty belly. Jon in fact lived a far better life than other people in his position. As for Aegon, his closest companions may have known he was a king, but to everyone else that met them, he was just the son of a sell-sword. Don't forget that he's had to live with the knowledge that his family was murdered and that if it hadn't been for the switch, he would have ended up as red pulp on the wall - and he also knows that another innocent baby was killed in his place. That's not easy to live with either.

Jon's had the chance to prove himself in a leadership position; it's not Aegon's fault that hasn't happened for him yet. We'll see how things are now that he's in Westeros, but saying that Aegon makes a poor king compared to Jon isn't quite fair.

Edited by Inara, 13 December 2012 - 10:30 AM.


#294 Beige Lunatics

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 10:49 AM

any thoughts, anyone?


So, you're saying Stannis has a legitimate claim because he's Robert's brother, and Robert was the legitimate king while he ruled?

Okay.

So then, you're saying that the Iron Throne belongs to whomever has the means to take it, since you acknowledge Robert's reign as legitimate. Therefore, if Dany is able to take the Throne back with her dragons/army/Jorah, she would be the true queen. According to your established logic.

Otherwise, you're saying "this person should rule because I want them to," which is Renly logic.

#295 Knight errant

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:46 AM

I do love the opertunity to critisise Stannis (though it does bring the fan boys down hard on me)

well here we go - overrated military comander.
religiously intolerent
adoulterouse
craven
kinslayer
user of underhand cowardly tactics
really douchy in his handing out of justice
hipocrite
cold and booring
distanced from everyone
bad at playing the game


except he's none of them.

Bad at playing the game, because he chooses to not be as big of a dick as Renly, Ned didn't "Play the game" either.
Underhand or cowardly tactics? As opposed to anyone else in this series?
Kinslayer in self defence and did he kill his kin? No. Not his hand, not too his knowledge and feels bad about it. He has morality.

His justice is more reasonable than any of the other rulers.

he isn't religiously intolerant, he's actively shown not to give a shit about religion so I don't know what book you're reading.

Overrated commander, still alive though so he can't be that bad and not really craven is he? He's never described as craven.

#296 Knight errant

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:55 AM

What provisions has Stannis made to feed his army marching on Winterfell in the middle of winter? He's men are practicing cannibalism, while he's isolating and distancing himself... In addition, he is burning people in obscure rituals, which is something Jon has never done... As to cohesion of his forces - they stay together only because the Northmen have their own agenda currently complying to Stannis' agenda... He's men are dying of hunger and cold, I guess that's a good cohesive factor...

As for Aegon, even if he is not a fake, there have been many attempts throughout history to make an enlightened and educated ruler, some of them were moderate successes some of them complete blander... The things Jon went through and survived on the Wall and beyond are something Aegon will never do in a million years... He's just a stubborn kid, bright and attractive, but he has never been in a situation to make life-or-death decisions - what would he do if he was faced with the task of killing Qhorin Halfhand... He was never exposed to situations like that...


what provisions can he make? He's a man, not a god. He can't magic food out of the air, nor can he wait at deepwood. Jon meanwhile has stores at a stationary point and won't be moving, with a harbor at his disposal, food can easily be brought in by any fool.

"Burning people in obscure rituals", no it's called an execution for cannibalism. His men are falling back in line. He was pushed to do that by his men and really, seems like an okay execution method to me, nothing wrong with burning people.

If "Mance" hadn't have been burnt he'd have been beheaded. Hardly a difference

Aegon, that's hardly justification "He killed a guy he befriended for about 2 weeks, Aegon will NEEEEVVERRRR get that" ...Yes, yes he will. He's already had better training than Jon, now he's putting it into action, he's proven cool headed but still young and rash for glory, hardly his fault. He's taken Stormsend and led the attack, he's seen men die for him then and for the realm so I hardly see how you can say he hardly compares to jon.



Jon is an alright commander, I'm not saying he's bad. I'm saying he's overrated. He is by no means the best or worst commander like many people say. He is above average at best, in my honest opinion and until he does more I will never think of him as more because he's not really had to struggle that much -whatever you say, killing one man who was a friend, commanding one battle (That Stannis won) and then getting stabbed by your own men is hardly the career of a good commander. George Patton, Bohemond, Tancred, Willam the Bastard, Longshanks etc. None of them were known for breaking an oath and getting stabbed by their men.

#297 Guardian of the Lhazareen

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:19 PM

except he's none of them.

Bad at playing the game, because he chooses to not be as big of a dick as Renly, Ned didn't "Play the game" either.
Underhand or cowardly tactics? As opposed to anyone else in this series?
Kinslayer in self defence and did he kill his kin? No. Not his hand, not too his knowledge and feels bad about it. He has morality.

His justice is more reasonable than any of the other rulers.

he isn't religiously intolerant, he's actively shown not to give a shit about religion so I don't know what book you're reading.

Overrated commander, still alive though so he can't be that bad and not really craven is he? He's never described as craven.


I read the book where he burnt the seven at both Dragon stone and Stormsend, and where he burnt peices of weirwood at the wall. which book are you reading?
Just because other people use underhand tactics deosn't justify him for doing so.
Craven for not meeting Renly in battle but assasinating him before hand. which was to his knowledge.
He chopped of Davos's fingers when he just saved his ass from starving, I understand why he did this but it just comes across as a dick move to me.

#298 Brandon Martell

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:31 PM

Craven for not meeting Renly in battle but assasinating him before hand. which was to his knowledge.

Tell me how it is more honorable to kill thousands of people on the battlefield than one man in his tent.
Just joking, but I couldn't resist saying it.

#299 Where Boars Glow

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:48 PM

Hardly a cult haha unless the seven are a cult too, it was lucky just be being the younger son of a king he could marry anyone and the Tyrells happened to have a girl of marrying age he'd been in contact with. He'd be a corrupt and ineffective leader from all I've seen , Robert come again but much, much worse.


What have you seen? Give a specific reference. I personally think Renly had many of Robert’s positive qualities. He also had one extra quality, the fact that he actually wanted the job. He wanted to play the game of thrones. Most of Robert’s major mistakes stemmed from the fact that didn't have ANY interest in politics. He just wanted to play and let someone else run his country for him.

1. Renly gathered a great army though political maneuvering
2. Renly was on the council and actually attended the meetings in order to form policy
3. Renly set up a smart marriage to solidify his position.
4. Renly made the smart play at Kings Landing when the shizzle hit the fan. If Eddard would have listened he would still have a family. and it would have been a single novel /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


#300 By the Old Gods Not theNew

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:21 PM

"Burning people in obscure rituals", no it's called an execution for cannibalism. His men are falling back in line. He was pushed to do that by his men and really, seems like an okay execution method to me, nothing wrong with burning people. 

If "Mance" hadn't have been burnt he'd have been beheaded. Hardly a difference


So you're saying that Stannis did not carry out an obscure religious ritual by burning 4 people but rather he executed them for their crimes because he was "pushed to do [it] by his men" and there's nothing wrong w/ burning people alive. really?

Sorry but the burnings were obviously a religious ritual that is both foreign and obscure in the North. The Asha/Sacrifice chapter makes it abundantly clear. For example:

Six queen’s men were wrestling two enormous pinewood poles into holes six other queen’s men had dug out. Asha did not have to ask their purpose. She knew. Stakes. Nightfall would be on them soon, and the red god must be fed. An offering of blood and fire, the queen’s men called it, that the Lord of Light may turn his fiery eye upon us and melt these thrice-cursed snows.

...Peasebury’s four would pay for their feast with their lives, by the king’s decree ... and by burning end the storm, the queen’s men claimed. Asha Greyjoy put no faith in their red god, yet she prayed they had the right of that. If not, there would be other pyres, and Ser Clayton Suggs might get his heart’s desire....

...The four victims were chained up back-to-back, two to a stake. There they hung, three live men and one dead one, as the Lord of Light’s devout stacked split logs and broken branches under their feet, then doused the piles with lamp oil. ...

...So far as Asha knew, the gods of the Karstarks were the old gods of the north, gods they shared with the Wulls, the Norreys, the Flints, and the other hill clans. She wondered if Lord Arnolf had come to view the burning at the king’s behest, that he might witness the power of the red god for himself.
At the sight of Stannis, two of the men bound to the stakes began to plead for mercy. The king listened in silence, his jaw clenched. Then he said to Godry Farring, “You may begin.”
The Giantslayer raised his arms. “Lord of Light, hear us.”
“Lord of Light, defend us,” the queen’s men chanted, “for the night is dark and full of terrors.”
Ser Godry raised his head toward the darkening sky. “We thank you for the sun that warms us and pray that you will return it to us, Oh lord, that it might light our path to your enemies.” Snowflakes melted on his face. “We thank you for the stars that watch over us by night, and pray that you will rip away this veil that hides them, so we might glory in their sight once more.”
“Lord of Light, protect us,” the queen’s men prayed, “and keep this savage dark at bay.” Ser Corliss Penny stepped forward, clutching the torch with both hands. He swung it about his
head in a circle, fanning the flames. One of the captives began to whimper.
“R’hllor,” Ser Godry sang, “we give you now four evil men. With glad hearts and true, we give them to your cleansing fires, that the darkness in their souls might be burned away. Let their vile flesh be seared and blackened, that their spirits might rise free and pure to ascend into the light. Accept their blood, Oh lord, and melt the icy chains that bind your servants. Hear their pain, and grant strength to our swords that we might shed the blood of your enemies. Accept this sacrifice, and show us the way to Winterfell, that we might vanquish the unbelievers.”
“Lord of Light, accept this sacrifice,” a hundred voices echoed. Ser Corliss lit the first pyre with the torch, then thrust it into the wood at the base of the second. A few wisps of smoke began to rise. The captives began to cough. The first flames appeared, shy as maidens, darting and dancing from log to leg. In moments both the stakes were engulfed in fire.
“He was dead,” the weeping boy screamed, as the flames licked up his legs. “We found him dead ... please ... we was hungry ...” The fires reached his balls. As the hair around his cock began to burn, his pleading dissolved into one long wordless shriek....

Culturally the North finds burning people alive as a form of capital punishment to be abhorrent. It's clear the Mnt Clans and Aly Mormont find the practice appalling.

“Even in this place of fear and darkness, the Lord of Light protects us,” Ser Godry Farring told the men who gathered to watch as the stakes were hammered down into the holes.
“What has your southron god to do with snow?” demanded Artos Flint. His black beard was crusted with ice. “This is the wroth of the old gods come upon us. It is them we should appease.”
“Aye,” said Big Bucket Wull. “Red Rahloo means nothing here. You will only make the old gods angry. They are watching from their island.”
The crofter’s village stood between two lakes, the larger dotted with small wooded islands that punched up through the ice like the frozen fists of some drowned giant. From one such island rose a weirwood gnarled and ancient, its bole and branches white as the surrounding snows. Eight days ago Asha had walked out with Aly Mormont to have a closer look at its slitted red eyes and bloody mouth. It is only sap, she’d told herself, the red sap that flows inside these weirwoods. But her eyes were unconvinced; seeing was believing, and what they saw was frozen blood.
“You northmen brought these snows upon us,” insisted Corliss Penny. “You and your demon trees. R’hllor will save us.”
“R’hllor will doom us,” said Artos Flint.

Asha is also disgusted by the spectacle.

Asha Greyjoy could taste the bile in the back of her throat. On the Iron Islands, she had seen priests of her own people slit the throats of thralls and give their bodies to the sea to honor the Drowned God. Brutal as that was, this was worse.
Close your eyes, she told herself. Close your ears. Turn away. You do not need to see this. The queen’s men were singing some paean of praise for red R’hllor, but she could not hear the words above the shrieks. The heat of the flames beat against her face, but even so she shivered. The air grew thick with smoke and the stink of burnt flesh, and one of the bodies still twitched against the red-hot chains that bound him to the stake.

The only people the burnings appeased were the Queen's Men, because it was a religious ritual. It was meant to end the snowstorm. It was accompanied by a prayer to the Lord of Light. It was an obscure Religious ritual, foreign to the North, and associated w/ a hostile foreign god attacking the olds gods and the olds ways of the North.

There's nothing wrong w/ burning people, who out of desperation, resort to cannibalism, really?

So do you think the Uruguayan Rugby Team that crashed in the Andes in the 1970s and resorted cannibalism should have been burned alive (http://en.wikipedia....flight_disaster)? Stannis's Lords are eating well enough (aly willingly chose to forego a meal, and asha harldy ate more than few bites, same for Justin Massey) but the common folk are starving to death and those who try to survive, as Stannis would (remember the siege of Strom's End), are being burned alive in obscure religious rituals to appease a God that most people doubt he even believes in. Is that the King's Justice under Stannis? Is that leadership? Is that how he will rule the realm? And people wonder why he’s the least popular of all the claimants.



Aegon, that's hardly justification "He killed a guy he befriended for about 2 weeks, Aegon will NEEEEVVERRRR get that" ...Yes, yes he will. He's already had better training than Jon, now he's putting it into action, he's proven cool headed but still young and rash for glory, hardly his fault. He's

Spoiler
and led the attack, he's seen men die for him then and for the realm so I hardly see how you can say he hardly compares to jon.



Not all of this happened in ADwD and probably needs a spoiler in the ADwD forum. And none of this has been confirmed. He said he wanted to lead the attack. He's probably seen men die by the start of TWoW, but not at the end of ADwD. Who are these men he's seen die for him and the realm? Where or when did he prove he was "cool headed"? JonCon and Tyrion both indicate he's rash like when he kicked cyvasse board, or by demanding to lead the attack on Strom's End. Neither of the 2 PoV that have given us insight into Aegon's personality have indicated he's cool headed. How is living on a pole boat w/ a measter and septa an exiled lord who lost his only major battle (how's that for tactics) and learning arms from Duck someone who JonCon describes as merely "adequate" (ADwD p.812) better training than one Jon received? Jon was educated in Winterfell by Maester Lewin w/ access to unique texts like Engines of War. He was educated by Old Nan and the Ned. He was trained in arms by Rodrik Cassel who's been battle tested unlike Duck. He then went on to receive training in arms from Thorne. Maester Aemon shared 100+ years of wisdom. He was chosen and groomed by the Old Bear and Halfhand. He was taught about wildling culture and the lands beyond the Wall and the knowledge long forgotten to the south. And he has far more battle experience than Aegon which has no doubt taught him much and more in comparison to the boy who lazily meandered on a pole boat for the last 16 years. He hardly compares because, words are wind, and thus far he's done nothing but act like a privileged child.

Edited by By the Old Gods Not theNew, 13 December 2012 - 04:31 PM.