Stannis is the One True King

[Kate Poem]

There is no mercy in treacherous murder. Nor is there treason in open, honest challenge to Stannis' claim.

You right, there is no mercy in murder - in battle or in treachery. The treason IS in challenge to claim of: his king's ALL "heirs" (okay, Joffrey was monster, but what with Tommen and Myrcella, innocent children - he knew them all their lives, they called him "uncle", he did'nt know about incest); his older brother - the head of House Baratheon - oldest living male Baratheon.

Renly would probably end up killing Stannis at the battlefield. Fairly. After having tried to get his cooperation first. Giving him every chance to surrender.

That is honorable. Stannis' treacherous murder was anything but.

Yes, of course. Last act of honour was order "don't behead my brother's corpse" and joyfull babbling "Loras will bring me my brother's sword I will look at it then"

And trying get his cooperation and giving every chance to surrender:

- insulting and joking innocent niece in her father's face;

- jocking from his older brother's unhappy marriage;

- ALL Westeros knew what was for Stannis Robert's generosity for Renly with Storm's End. And Renly said "Take Storm's End as A GIFT FROM THE BROTHER". No word about place in the court or in Small Council. Practically it was "take Storm's End, I don't need it now - disappear from my sight".

That is quite the illustration of grasping at straws. He failed to commit a specific atrocity, so he must be moral? Really? Never mind that he considered it for a long time and was deprived the choice by Davos anyway?

By that logic, there are hardly any immoral people anywhere.

All thought Davos died in the battle with his sons. How long Davos was'nt on Dragonstone? I don't remember. Some time.

After that Davos landed in the dungeons. How long? I don't remember now. Some time.

Melisandre and Queen Selyse probably - we don't know for sure - all this time pleaded "My lord husband, burn this bastard, take the course from our marriage bed off", "Your Grace, make this sacrifice of king's blood"

How many times king said "No"? A riddle.

Davos was'nt here. He could burn little Edric 10, 20, 30 times but he could'nt. Edric had his lessons with maester, Edric played with his cousin etc. etc.

He considered it for long time, but he could do it in every moment. Davos was'nt here, I'll repeat.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

stannis may not have proof, but that' why he has to fight, do you expect him to give in just because ha doesn't have a video of jaime and cersei doing it.

rebellions are committed for far lesser reasons

and we know Stannis is right, with or without porn video

[Malpka]

People who blame Stannis for klling Renly should remember that, for Stannins, Renly has commited high treason and it was rather execution.

Still he met with him and offered very reasonable terms, even though supposed to only give him a choice between The Wall and execution.

And yes actually Stannis is right now the rightful heir to the throne, as Targeryns failed at keeping it, and Robert was actually crowned with all ceremony.

[mcb]

People who blame Stannis for klling Renly should remember that, for Stannins, Renly has commited high treason and it was rather execution.

Then he should proudly come clean and announce to the whole realm: yeah, I've killed my brother, the brat had it coming.

And yes actually Stannis is right now the rightful heir to the throne, as Targeryns failed at keeping it, and Robert was actually crowned with all ceremony.

As for "failing at keeping it", Stannis couldn't keep even Dragonstone, not to mention sit his ass on the throne itself. If you go with "possession is 9/10 of the law", then Tommen is the rightful king, and Stannis just another rebel.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

Then he should proudly come clean and announce to the whole realm: yeah, I've killed my brother, the brat had it coming.

he can also say - Hey I did it with the help of dark magic, no biggie, but once you know me I'm such a nice and caring person so it'd be great if you all joined me. Sometimes though, some things can really piss me off so when that happens I'll just take one or two of you and burn you alive as a sacrifice to foreign deity me and my bearded wife are worshiping, while my boy Clayton here is watching fires and jacking off.

Man, that is not the way to gather people under your banner, nor it is the advertising people want to hear

[Stannis Iron Baratheon]

Robert was getting his original claim to the throne through his grandmother (or great grandmother) who was a targaryen, so even though stannis is roberts heir, danyerys is the heir of the mad king and robert should have only been "keeping the seet warm for her"

[Buried Treasure]

Not at all, Robert deposed the Targaryens - and the decision that he would be king even before the old king was dead. It can be argued either way about whether Robert claiming the crown by conquest was legitimate or whether he was just a traitor - but there is no doubt he was establishing the Baratheon's as a seperate dynasty to the Targaryens.

The Bareatheon link to the throne through kinship with the Targaryens is the justification for Robert being chosen more than it is the reason. Even the way we were told of the link is offhand; it's 'oh there was mention made of a marriage and great-grandmother...' (not the actual quote as I can't recall what chapter it is in).

Once the alliance was committed into rebellion, and had reached the point where they were going to overthrow the Targaryens (rather than merely back Aerys into a corner) then they needed to identify somebody who was going to take the throne. In a choice between the three commanders of the rebellion Robert stood out by several measures. He was the vibrant charismatic leader who could win friends and inspire allies (Ned was cool / shy, and no mention is made of Jon Arryn being inspiring). He was young, and had brothers to inherit his other lands (applies also to Ned but Jon was already old and his first heir was killed along with Brandon). And the Baratheon-Targaryen link did help, not because it put Robert closer to the throne but because it gave his family a pan-Westeros connection; the Arryns are associated only with the Vale, the Starks only with the North (and they worship funny gods to boot). The Baratheons are a Stormlands House, but the regional association is not as strong.

[LuisDantas]

You said he had no semblance of morality, I think it's clear he has.

"Renly's Treacherous Murder"

"Renly probably would of given Stannis every opportunity to surrender"

Sensationalist guesswork, he has no choice because - If he beat Renly's army he would be unable to defeat the Lannisters, meaning his only way to win the Iron Throne was to have Renly bend the knee or to kill Renly with his army intact.

As with most people who dislike Stannis you overemphasize the shadow-murder of Renly and judge him for things he never actually did.

Stannis has no honorable choice that allows him much of a chance at the Iron Throne at the point where he murders Renly, true.

That is my whole point, in fact.

[LuisDantas]

stannis may not have proof, but that' why he has to fight, do you expect him to give in just because ha doesn't have a video of jaime and cersei doing it.

No. I expect him to give up because he tarnished his claim with the blood of his brother. Previous to that moment, I expect him to withold his claim until such a time as when he had a fighting chance.

But I guess Stannis isn't capable of giving up without breaking. Donal Noye had his correct measure.

[LuisDantas]

He had no choice, renly would've killed him without a second thought!

That is preposterous. Renly gave him every opportunity to give up or even to join him.

He certainly did not expect Stannis to take those chances. No one who knows Stannis did. But he can't be faulted for denying Stannis the chance, because he did not.

[LuisDantas]

You right, there is no mercy in murder - in battle or in treachery. The treason IS in challenge to claim of: his king's ALL "heirs" (okay, Joffrey was monster, but what with Tommen and Myrcella, innocent children - he knew them all their lives, they called him "uncle", he did'nt know about incest); his older brother - the head of House Baratheon - oldest living male Baratheon.

I don't remember Renly ever giving any indication of wanting to kill Joffrey, Stannis, Tommen or Myrcella without giving them a chance to surrender or flee first.

In fact, we have every reason to believe that he would rather not kill any of them. It is just not like Renly. We know that he fully expected Stannis to die rather than surrender, but then again, that is Stannis for all of us. He doesn't seem to be capable of surrendering to anyone.

Yes, of course. Last act of honour was order "don't behead my brother's corpse" and joyfull babbling "Loras will bring me my brother's sword I will look at it then"

And trying get his cooperation and giving every chance to surrender:

- insulting and joking innocent niece in her father's face;

- jocking from his older brother's unhappy marriage;

- ALL Westeros knew what was for Stannis Robert's generosity for Renly with Storm's End. And Renly said "Take Storm's End as A GIFT FROM THE BROTHER". No word about place in the court or in Small Council. Practically it was "take Storm's End, I don't need it now - disappear from my sight".

Stannis and Renly had no love for each other, true. It was mutual, but it did not mean that Renly _chose_ to kill Stannis. He accepted that he could not help it if it came to facing each other in battle.

Are you saying that Renly deserved to die because he refused to kneel for Stannis? Or because he lacked manners?

All thought Davos died in the battle with his sons. How long Davos was'nt on Dragonstone? I don't remember. Some time.

After that Davos landed in the dungeons. How long? I don't remember now. Some time.

Melisandre and Queen Selyse probably - we don't know for sure - all this time pleaded "My lord husband, burn this bastard, take the course from our marriage bed off", "Your Grace, make this sacrifice of king's blood"

How many times king said "No"? A riddle.

Davos was'nt here. He could burn little Edric 10, 20, 30 times but he could'nt. Edric had his lessons with maester, Edric played with his cousin etc. etc.

He considered it for long time, but he could do it in every moment. Davos was'nt here, I'll repeat.

True enough, I suppose. But really, that is saying that he was a reluctant would-be slayer of innocent kin at that point.

[Mulled Wino]

No. I expect him to give up because he tarnished his claim with the blood of his brother. Previous to that moment, I expect him to withold his claim until such a time as when he had a fighting chance.

But I guess Stannis isn't capable of giving up without breaking. Donal Noye had his correct measure.

His claim is not tarnished. There is plenty of proof.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

His claim is not tarnished. There is plenty of proof.

Renly was a traitor and usurper after all and Stannis' claim is senior to all except Dany and maybe Aegon

but despite his claim his deeds do make him a bad king - he is far better than Joff, Aerys and the rest of shizoid nutcases but still unfit (or not totally fit) to rule

[Fire and Blood!]

Stannis is a hypocrite he claims that he doesn't want to be king but instead of leagally abdicating for Renly(which he could have done) who was next in line anyway he assassinates him.How can people still consider him just and honorable?

[jon rr stark]

By the laws of succession Stannis is the rightful king. Simple. But hold on by the previous laws of succession Dany is the rightful queen. But how does any royal family start. Simple by aggerssion and taking a kingdom. They keep it by the laws of succession until someone else comes along and takes it with their army or dragons. The common people choose nothing because they have no power to do so, or education to realise that they shouldnt be ruled by a king anyway. They are mostly so downtrodden that just making ends meet getting in their harvest preoccupies their minds and time. How long and how much suffering have to be endured before the revolution and a republic. The free cities are the closest to a demoracry, Qarth with its merchent trade allows the low born or poor to rise eg x??? that chap dany stayed with rose from dock hand to richest man in Qarth and one of the ruling 13.

So in a monarchy might is right. 'No man shall have the right to fix the boundary to the march of a nation ' Charles Stewart Parnell

[bbqq]

Stannis and Renly had no love for each other, true. It was mutual, but it did not mean that Renly _chose_ to kill Stannis. He accepted that he could not help it if it came to facing each other in battle.

I disagree with this. He knew very well that Stannis would never swear him fealty, so as soon as Renly made his claim to the throne he made a choice that Stannis had to die, either at his order or someone else's.

[Yar]

Power rests with whomever people believe it to.

[Silent_Hero]

Stannis is a hypocrite he claims that he doesn't want to be king but instead of leagally abdicating for Renly(which he could have done) who was next in line anyway he assassinates him.How can people still consider him just and honorable?

Stannis is just, Renly who is younger than Stannis was a traitor and rebel, Stannis gave him very generous terms, he even offered to make him his heir! And it's not clear that Stannis knows Melisandre assassinated renly.

Stannis does not want to be King but he doesn't want incestous freaks such as Joffery claiming to be his bros son and King of the 7 Kingdoms

[kwvapor]

Stannis is just, Renly who is younger than Stannis was a traitor and rebel, Stannis gave him very generous terms, he even offered to make him his heir! And it's not clear that Stannis knows Melisandre assassinated renly.

Stannis does not want to be King but he doesn't want incestous freaks such as Joffery claiming to be his bros son and King of the 7 Kingdoms

I come parlay with my brother and he has 5 people and gives me "generous" terms while I have 50 people. If I had known better, his attitude took it as a slight. Maybe I should of told him that God told me with my 5 people, I'd kicked his ass even if he had 500 people and see if he'd get the gist of God's plan.

My point is, your argument doesn't take into consideration Renly's personality and circumstances. Obviously, we'd known if there was a Renly POV.

His inner thoughts might be like "even outnumbered my older brother is hard headed and not taking me serious, though I really dont know what I'm doing, my advisors can't be wrong."

I have a brother, way younger than me, although he is nothing like Renly, nothing wrong with swinging that way but ya that's another thread.

[Silent_Hero]

I come parlay with my brother and he has 5 people and gives me "generous" terms while I have 50 people. If I had known better, his attitude took it as a slight. Maybe I should of told him that God told me with my 5 people, I'd kicked his ass even if he had 500 people and see if he'd get the gist of God's plan.

My point is, your argument doesn't take into consideration Renly's personality and circumstances. Obviously, we'd known if there was a Renly POV.

His inner thoughts might be like "even outnumbered my older brother is hard headed and not taking me serious, though I really dont know what I'm doing, my advisors can't be wrong."

I have a brother, way younger than me, although he is nothing like Renly, nothing wrong with swinging that way but ya that's another thread.

What exactly are you trying to say? That Stannis is being hardheaded? I would say it is Renly being hardheaded as he is younger than stannis and lower in the line for the throne. As someone mentioned before as soon as Renly declared himself King he pretty much gave out a silent death wish for Stannis.