63 replies to this topic

[Grumpy Midget]

Dracarya, on 06 May 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

This is a different argument. I agree with you about Jaime, but it doesn't say anything about Neds' parenting. As a parent, I don't think he was too shabby, and doesn't belong on the 'worst parents' list. He didn't do very well by Jon, especially if he is his bastard and not Lyannas' son, but because we don't have the full story yet we can't really judge. With the rest of his kids, I think he did well. They're all pretty nice, well-rounded children, with good morals and a happy childhood.

Well rounded children?  with good morals?  Now are we talking about Sansa, who betrayed her family so she could be queen?  Or Arya, who rejected most of what Ned taught her? (Father was wrong, the lone wolf survives, while the pack dies).  Or maybe the cannibal bros?  Bran & Rickon.

[Grumpy Midget]

FuzzyJAM, on 06 May 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

Except, as I've already said, if his idea of what to do came from Ned, he wouldn't have slept with Jeyne in the first place.  It's ridiculous to blame Ned for how his son decided to deal with a situation Ned told him to stay away from.

You gotta remember Ned did bring a bastard home to raise in spite of his angry wife.

[Dracarya]

Grumpy Midget, on 06 May 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

Well rounded children?  with good morals?  Now are we talking about Sansa, who betrayed her family so she could be queen?  Or Arya, who rejected most of what Ned taught her? (Father was wrong, the lone wolf survives, while the pack dies).  Or maybe the cannibal bros?  Bran & Rickon.

Sansa did what any other teenage girl would have done - thought about herself and her 'true love'. Arya rejected what her father taught her because she had to survive while she was alone. It's not proven that the paste Bran has been eating contains any part of Jojen, and in any case, he didn't eat him on purpose. And we know nothing but rumours about Skagos, so only the gods know what Rickon has been doing.

[bloodymime]

Grumpy Midget, on 06 May 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

Robb could have left Jeyne with a bastard in her belly.  Instead he choose to spit in the eyes of the men who fought and bled for him.  Since Ned choose civil war over getting his hands dirty in a palace coup, I could see where Robb got his concept of "honor" from.

Robb grew up with what he believed to be walking talking proof that Ned wasn't above cheating on his wife and fathering a bastard. I wonder if growing up with Jon actually played a part in that decision. Robb feeling a guilt in growing up with Jon and not wanting to take the chance of his own little bastard.

Lord Baelish online, on 06 May 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

For all we know Syrio might be Jaqen Hgar in disguise. He probably tricked Eddard into letting him teach Arya. A man like Lord Eddard stark is not like to change his mind and perceptions so easily without force. see what happened when he was made to confess to the whole of king's landing that joffrey is the one true heir. Force made him do that. He's a fool.

Well we can't all be rats thriving in the sewer.

[David Selig]

I think Ned was a good parent overall, but a few things bug me about him in this respect, though they are mostly due to plot necessity. Giving his kids who were only 8, 7 and 3 year old at the time the sole control and responsibility for wild wolf cubs who he knew would soon grow up to be huge was irresponsible, he was lucky they happened to be wargs. Telling Bran "Climb as much as you like, just make sure your mother don't see you" was pretty irresponsible too, the kid was risking his life every day this way.

Edited by David Selig, 06 May 2012 - 07:30 PM.

[FuzzyJAM]

Grumpy Midget, on 06 May 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

Well rounded children?  with good morals?  Now are we talking about Sansa, who betrayed her family so she could be queen?  Or Arya, who rejected most of what Ned taught her? (Father was wrong, the lone wolf survives, while the pack dies).  Or maybe the cannibal bros?  Bran & Rickon.

Could you be any more disingenuous here?  

Wow.  

Grumpy Midget, on 06 May 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

You gotta remember Ned did bring a bastard home to raise in spite of his angry wife.

Well, I think we all know he didn't. . .

But that's besides the point - he presented him having supposedly fathered this child as a disgraceful thing.  Robb knew his father felt he shouldn't sleep with random girls, even if he had been brought up to mistakenly believe his father had broken that moral himself.

[Grumpy Midget]

bloodymime, on 06 May 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

Robb grew up with what he believed to be walking talking proof that Ned wasn't above cheating on his wife and fathering a bastard. I wonder if growing up with Jon actually played a part in that decision. Robb feeling a guilt in growing up with Jon and not wanting to take the chance of his own little bastard.

That's a good point.  But on the other hand Robb wasn't observant enough to realized how Theon was feeling living under the Stark household.  Makes me wonder how much he knows about Catlyn's treatment of Jon.  I remember in the show at least, when Catlyn told Jon to fuck off when Jon tried to visit Bran, Robb asked Jon afterwards about it.  Jon made up some lie and Robb took it at face value.

[Grumpy Midget]

FuzzyJAM, on 06 May 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

Could you be any more disingenuous here?  

Wow.

I know, sometimes I manage to impress even myself.

(Honestly, I'm just REALLY, REALLY bored.  Trying to kill an hour till the new episode comes on)

Edited by Grumpy Midget, 06 May 2012 - 07:33 PM.

[bloodymime]

David Selig, on 06 May 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

I think Ned was a good parent overall, but a few things bug me about him in this respect, though they are mostly due to plot necessity. Giving his kids who were only 8, 7 and 3 year old at the time the sole control and responsibility for wild wolf cubs who he knew would soon grow up to be huge was irresponsible, he was lucky they happened to be wargs. Telling Bran "Climb as much as you like, just make sure your mother don't see you" was pretty irresponsible too, the kid was risking his life every day this way.

Come on, these weren't modern day sissies making their kids strap on helmets to go to the bathroom.

Grumpy Midget, on 06 May 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

That's a good point.  But on the other hand Robb wasn't observant enough to realized how Theon was feeling living under the Stark household.  Makes me wonder how much he knows about Catlyn's treatment of Jon.  I remember in the show at least, when Catlyn told Jon to fuck off when Jon tried to visit Bran, Robb asked Jon afterwards about it.  Jon made up some lie and Robb took it at face value.

In the book I believe Robb hesitates before asking to indicate he knows and is afraid of what he'll hear. I'm sure all the kids knew and didn't care except for Sansa who slightly mirrored Cat with lines like “He gets jealous because he’s a bastard.”   I'm pretty sure it also says how Sansa always referred to Jon as her half brother as soon as she learned he was a bastard and what it meant.

[Lord Orys Baratheon]

Not including Craster my top3 is:

1. Cersai/Robert - talk about negligent. Robert never cared or took much time to be a parent. Cersai was and still is obsessed with herself and the childhood prophecy. Also when she does try to be a parent she fails miserable with all the advice she gives her kids.
2. Walder Frey - He seems to look at his children like basic pawns in a game (which to be fair they are) and shows no real emotion for any of them.
3. Tywin - I think his character is awesome. That being said he always treated Tyrion horribly only due to him being an imp. Turned a blind eye on the Jamie/Cersai relationship. I assume Tywin is smart enough to know what was going on there for awhile and he never attempted to stop it (as far as we know).

Honorable mention: Cat - not the worst parent, but she seemed pretty obsessed with hanging out with Robb for no real reason, he obviously no longer needed his mom around; I never quite understood why she almost never showed any desire to go home with her two boys except on occasion. She wanted to be with her dying father, so she gets a little bit of a pass, which is why shes not in my Top3 worst parents. Clearly she wasn't the worst but far from the best as well. Poor Rickon.

[The Last Martell]

Excluding Craster...

I think it's easily Robert/Cersei (and Jaime).  They completely mishandled the raising of their children.  They neglected two, and the other was Joffery so enough said.  And then of course right after Joff dies Cersei and Jaime have sex in front of his corpse.

Other honorable mentions are Lysa Arryn, Randyl Tarly, and Mad Aerys.

[Gaius Martell]

Ignoring Craster,

Lysa Tully - Breastfeeding Robert until he's married, so he can switch straight from one teat to another?  How horrid.

Cersei Lannister - Your favorite child ended up a horrible sociopath, and you ignore/ hate the other two.

Tywin Lannister - Specifically with Tyrion.  You deserved your manner death, sir.

The Clegane parents who let Gregor get away with his bullshit.

Randyll Tarly - Sam has to fit your expectations?

[The Manhood-Eating Goat]

Obviously excluding Craster, I'd have to say Randyll Tarly too.

There was a lot wrong with Sam when he first turned up at the Wall, but he was still a compassionate, kind, intelligent young boy and yet his father threatened to kill him simply because he didn't fit his expectations.

[butterbumps!]

bloodymime, on 06 May 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

Come on, these weren't modern day sissies making their kids strap on helmets to go to the bathroom.

oh-  I'd taken that for a joke, as in "I have to really reach for issues I take with Ned."   Or maybe it wasn't.

[Burning down the House]

Robert/Cersei/Jaime and there is plenty of blame for all three of them.  They are responsible for Joffrey and are therefore the worst parents in Westeros.

[NOc]

Jaime.  He didn't have anything to do with his children, didn't even care about them.  At least Craster raised his children, even as twisted as it was.

[Leto]

Dracarya, on 06 May 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

He didn't raise Ramsay though, the fault there lies with the mother.

Some people just might argue that abandoning your child is a sufficient criteria for bad parenthood. The very same people might also argue that the act of abandoning a child does not free you from the responsibility of the upbringing.

[Dracarya]

Leto, on 07 May 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

Some people just might argue that abandoning your child is a sufficient criteria for bad parenthood. The very same people might also argue that the act of abandoning a child does not free you from the responsibility of the upbringing.

I wouldn't go that far. Now we're talking with our modern values, which can't really be applied to situations like this. Roose raped Ramsays' mother, he's not going to give a shit that that rape resulted in a pregnancy. I don't disagree with your arguments, I'm just saying that applying them to Roose makes him a bad parent by our standards, not necessarily the standards of Westeros. Many high lords had bastards scattered all over the country, it seems to be a norm.

[Storms End]

Putting the stark parents in the same boat as the likes of craster, is a boat destined to sink to the bottom of the ocean, never to be discussed or heard of again.

[Natalie_S]

Excluding Craster....

1. Tywin Lannister. No competition here.

2. Randyll Tarly- would have killed Samwell because he's fat and a bad fighter.

3. The Clegane's - all in all, Sandor turned up surprisingly well compared to Gregor, but still they're both pretty fucked up.

4. Lysa Tully- gross.


I won't include Robert, because his idea of fatherhood probably included only conceiving the child and then provide for his life (which he did with Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen), and Cersei, because the 2 younger kids turned up quite well.
Ned did his best... it's not really his fault if he was a bit thick.
Catelyn is appalling only towards Rickon... but then again, nobody ever really concerns about Rickon (even Sansa doesn't mention him when she's missing her family) so maybe it's GRRM who doesn't really remember about him when he writes about the Starks.