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[Westeros]

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[The Bastard of Bolton]

This coverage feels slanted and overly negative.

[Ran]

I'd hope it feels slanted by someone having an opinion, rather than being the meanderings of a Vulcan or a robot.

Mileage varies, but one thing I can't stand are scenes that insult my intelligence. The Lorch scene was symptomatic of strange choices that simply seemed to assume that viewers were to stupid or too dazzled to care. Those first ten minutes simply didn't win that much charity from me. It left me disappointed as nothing else in the series to date has.

Edited by Ran, 07 May 2012 - 10:25 AM.

[HenrikLannister]

This coverage is definitely overly negative. smh

[boojam]

It's a good point are Benioff and Weiss too overworked from having to change one location and establish an additional one?

I'll say for about the 25th time, they are trying stuff 40 pounds of Geroge's prose drama into a 20 pound visual drama bag. They pulled off this cleverly last season, but not enough care is being put into thinking the episodes through... once again the too much material for 10 one hour episodes.

By the by , I'll ask it again, is George , has George seen every screenplay this season? He has mysteriously gone missing in commenting on season 2.

What happened to the horse budget? It seems to stay all in Northern Ireland.
Now Dubrovnik looks like a fantastic middle ages town, and it's probably more realistic than George's KL, the back streets all squashed down. But as you note things seem 'down sized' more than one would think for an approximate 6 million per episode. Has Blackwater sucked about a million out of each episode? That's gonna be a wopper of an episode if they spent 20 million on it!

Well the Harrenhal sequence didn't seem all that bad to me.... but it did seem a muddled... here really is a case of D&D not doing a good review job, plus , again, did George get to read the teleplay at all? He just seemed more involved than last season.
And wow , what's it about Aidan Gillen's contract? He seems to be everywhere!
(We will see if they use it later ,I think in fact that LF probably did recognize Arya , but may be a card in his deck he does not want to play, I can see where it could be of advantage to him to leave Harrenhal without mentioning it, it would be in character for him. )
Harrenhal sequence sure could have been constructed and even edited better, but I did not find it as jarring in the analysis. I figured Lorch would be the next victim. Just figured they would be more subtle with Jaqen's method. By the by , must be a matter of dramatic judgement, but did not seem or look like a joke to me.

On Qarth. First and foremost, I never cared for this part of the story in CoK, George just kind of riffs on narrative fluff , mostly for , what, Dany's five chapters. Except for the House of the Undying , which seemed an entertaining side show. Except for some enigmatic prophecies and running into Arstan and Belwas not much happens in Qarth.
O come on nothing wrong with the stealing of the dragons, adds to drama , spruces up those rather drab Qarth chapters.
I am sorry but you all take Qarth way too seriously , it's a value judgment I just don't subscribe too.

I love the books, and think George is a first class writer, but warts do show up from time to time, even in the first three novels.

All in all with the glitches I was entertained by this episode as much as any of the others, still to much strain to get all of CoK into 10 episodes, well just have to see  what the rating are.

What the hell has happened to Conleth Hill?

[Lyonel B]

Personally I think that is a ridiculously negative appraisal. I thoroughly enjoyed that episode.

[Raja]

Plenty of people banging on about how terrible the Dany sequences are , but you're not exactly going to like them if you hated the ones in the books are you? I thought this episode was probably the best one out of the lot. They did change things here and there , and probably will be later on too. However I don't think they should be given that much grief over mainly due to the fact tha

1) Most of the stuff which they add into the series stays very true with the essence of Martin's novels. A scene from season 1 that comes to mind is the Robert/ Cersei scene about their marriage . I could easily see that scene in the first novel without breaking away from what Martin has done with the books. For me it's okay that they are not staying line by line on what the books do mainly because I know they'll closely follow the overarching story of the books. Miniscule stuff like Rodrik dying instead of that other guy in the books , don't really bother me too much . As both instances serve the same purpose of showing how Theon has really become a different man.

2) Secondly and this is very off topic , anyone know how I could contact George RR? like an Email id or something like that ? You know the kind of stuff they put on "contact" on websites. I'm sure I won't exactly get his Email , but to put me in touch with his representatives?

[David C. Hunter]

I never expected David and Dan to make an exact replica of the books on the screen. Episode 6 was the best episode of the season for me. So far I will probably say that I enjoyed season 1 more than season 2(So far), but that has to do with the fact that I like the book AGOT more than ACOK. Never really cared for the 2nd book. There is no way they could fit everything from the 2nd book into 10 episodes. TV audiences are completely different than readers and many times one has to drop characters, combine characters and change settings because of money and budgets.

I understand what happens to Ser Roddrick in the books, but to be honest Theon chopping off his head is waaay more dramatic for me and I loved what he says. "I'm off to see your father." Beautiful and it saved time and condensed the story. Journeys will change in this series, but the end result will be the same. Jon Snow is separated from Halfhand. Not a big deal, because we still know what will happen in the final chapter, don't we?

I also suspect to see the White Walkers again before the season is over. You have to let the TV audience know the bad guys on the horizon.


I will say this....I am a big fan of the Reek/Ramsey/Theon storyline and it would suck if they eliminate that and just have Ramsay conquer Winterfell from Theon because I do not believe that it will have the same emotional impact. It is such a surprise when we realize Reek in Ramsay and I believe they should have time to do this, but we will see. If it happens a different way I will be disappointed, but it won't be a big deal because I know that this is an adaption and some things have to change. Im dissapointed the Reeds havent showed up, but its not really a big deal because I love the character of Osha.


PS I hated the Qarth scenes in the book, so any changes in it I welcome.

Edited by David C. Simmons, 07 May 2012 - 05:04 PM.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I basically agree with your review Ran except for the Dany part.  I really think unreal, almost mystical out of this world feel of Qarth in the original work was a detriment and not a benefit to the story. It is mostly why I just for the life of me cannot give a damn about Essos.  Essos is just not real to me the way Westeros is real to me.

Obviously it remains to be seen how they do it, but I am not in principle against making some changes to the Qarth storyline to give it a less surreal and more grounded feel, so the changes in Dany's storyline last night didn't bother me.

I do agree with you about Harrenhal, and the Robb/Jeyne storyline, both were poorly executed and I did not care for them.  Theon's taking of Winterfell was great and the best part of the episode, and I liked Jon's story too except they are working too hard to make Ghost not part of his story.  We haven't seen one meaningful interaction between Jon and Ghost this year.

[David C. Hunter]

The lack of direwolves and dragons is due to budget guys, not because Dan and David are trying to write them out the story

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I know why, I just want them to find another way  around the problem. So far they've just given the audience no reason to feel attached to those animals.

[The Anti-Targ]

Agree with the nitpicks, mostly. Though I think Qarth is being done just fine, in the round. disagree with the over all conclusion.

I was pretty well satisfied with the episode.

I don't know why the nitpick with LF/Tywin/Arya. LF knows who Arya is, his sideways glance at her, once he got a good look, showed he knows what he was looking at. His not outing her to Tywin is completely in-keeping with LF's character. He's not going to give up such important information without a guaranteed payoff. Tywin, however should be suspicious of LF talking to him, but not being able to take his eyes off Arya. Perhaps he thinks LF is a pedo, but he knows LF is a cunning manipulator and if he has some fixation on Arya then it means Arya must be much more than she seems. Perhaps time will thwart Tywin's growing realisation that Arya is perhaps a more important captive than first seeming.

My only real concern is Jon. I feel it's important for him and Qhorin to have that conversation and come to the realisation that a deadly course of action must be taken. It will be my biggest disappointment of the whole season if Jon and Qhorin's final conversation to be cut from the TV show. As such this episode only plants the seed of that disappoinment, I can still hold on to hope that the seed does not grow to bear fruit. So I'm going in to Ep7 with quite a bit of trepidation.

Love Rose Leslie, but she's altogether too beautiful to be Ygritte. She sounds exacly like her maid character in Downton Abbey.

[Ty3009]

I thoroughly disagree with the assessment of Dany's storyline in Quarth.  I'll give you that certain points in Harrenhal were a bit contrived/sitcomy but I think the good massively outweighed the bad.

Is Quarth really meant to be some otherworldy, fairytale location?  It's a city with different customs and social structure than we're used to seeing but the writers couldn't possibly work in the ridiculous complexity of the various factions.  It's a trade port and I think that calls for a bit of practicality.  The stealing of dragons won't become an issue later on because there will either be more security or they'll be, ya know, bigger, more dangerous, and tougher to steal.  I think their growth will be accelerated if they're going to pull off some of the scenes next season.

The HotU scene is undoubtedly one of the most ethereal in the books and there's still plenty of room for the writers to translate that faithfully.  But Quarth really shouldn't feel like Disneyland and the raising of the stakes and action is a welcome choice by the writers.

I feel that this analysis comes off like it's written by a disgruntled book purist that can't handle changes made in the adaptation.  I'm sorry if that comes off has harsh and I mean no disrespect but I think your expectations need to be adjusted.  There are some valid criticisms, particularly your point about insulting the viewers' intelligence.  I can totally see that with regards to the Harrenhal plotline.  However, I think that you have a knee jerk reaction to any change from the text.  The scene between Robb, Tulisa, and Catelyn, which you lampooned as artificial felt completely natural and believable to me.  Meet cutes are overdone but..they're also real.  That's how people really interact.  I just wonder if you're overly judgemental about it because its not in the books.

Edited by Ty3009, 07 May 2012 - 11:35 PM.

[Ran]

Quote

Is Quarth really meant to be some otherworldy, fairytale location?

That's the role in the narrative.

Spoiler

From the birth of the dragons to the destruction of the House of the Undying, Daenerys's story is following folkloric tropes. Something supernatural happening doesn't just get shaken off -- Dany travels into the desert after the red comet, she finds a dead city, she sends her bloodriders in three directions and one by one they return with news of wonders and dead cities and a living city where no other habitation can be found, and there are suddenly "three wise men" there leading her, each offering her something.

Once the Undying are vanquished, Qarth is no longer the place of splendor -- now Dany sees it for what it is, a place that offers much but gives little, just like any other place. The illusion is destroyed, and suddenly a ship from across the sea arrives to spirit her away, bringing her back into the world.

That is, in any case, my view.

Oh, and updated with a correction or two, plus the latest Thronecast video.

[DaveSumm]

I really didn't read the Harrenhal scenes the same way at all. Was Lorch's death really supposed to humorous? I didn't think so. The mysterious aspect of Jaqen's abilities that we see in the novels when the dog turns on his master has been lost, so we needed something to tell us that Jaqen isn't just some guy who believes three people need to die - he's actually GOOD at this. On a moments notice, he concocted a means of Amory dying and implemented it in the nick of time. I didn't for a second think it was funny.

Also, I've read the books twice and I didn't even think that a letter would have to be run by a Maester. To suggest that this is a glaring error that would have been picked up by a TV viewer seems a little silly to me. Maybe Lorch's retinue carry their own ravens and he dealt with the letter through his own people? Hardly more of a change than any other we've seen on the show. You could just as easily say that Theon's thought of writing to Robb was silly because it would have to have gone through someone else on Pyke.

Ultimately, I think all of the Harrenhal plots have been worth the changes simply to see the resulting Tywin/Arya scenes. I was sceptical at first of the decision to switch Tywin and Roose but I think it was the right choice. This episode was one of the best so far in my opinion.

[boojam]

Ran, on 08 May 2012 - 03:48 AM, said:

Spoiler

From the birth of the dragons to the destruction of the House of the Undying, Daenerys's story is following folkloric tropes. Something supernatural happening doesn't just get shaken off -- Dany travels into the desert after the red comet, she finds a dead city, she sends her bloodriders in three directions and one by one they return with news of wonders and dead cities and a living city where no other habitation can be found, and there are suddenly "three wise men" there leading her, each offering her something.

Once the Undying are vanquished, Qarth is no longer the place of splendor -- now Dany sees it for what it is, a place that offers much but gives little, just like any other place. The illusion is destroyed, and suddenly a ship from across the sea arrives to spirit her away, bringing her back into the world.

That is, in any case, my view.

Oh, and updated with a correction or two, plus the latest Thronecast video.

Just why is this information a spoiler? Even for non readers?

If they is anyone who likes breaking 'folkloric tropes' it is George!
Just my personal take, Qarth seemed splendid enough within on the green screen.... then it's budget crunch time ... that garden party looked exactly like some existing location in Dubrovnik , dressed set wise , that is.
I am impressed with Dubrovnik , it's 'back streets' are better than the ones at Malta, and larger vistas look good, but I am curious about architectural CGI enhancement as we had the first season. I don't think I am seeing it.

Edited by boojam, 08 May 2012 - 06:10 AM.

[The hairy bear]

Ran,

You have missnumbered the Arya chapters in your past two reviews. The second death takes place in Arya VIII (not VII).

Regarding the topic at hand, I must admit that I also agree with everything in your review save for Qarth. Dany's chapters are the weak link in ACOK, and while what D&D has done with her storyline so far is admitedly weak, is still better, IMHO, to the source material.

Quote

And did we really, really have to pull the “steal dragons” genie out of the bottle? It undercuts the Qartheen ceremonial, refined culture to simply have someone decide to steal the dragons because, in the end, what can Dany truly do? And it throws into question why we’re not going to see attempts next season, and the season after that, and the season after that.

I don't think I follow you here. I think that it stretches credulity that no one tried to steal Dany's dragons in Qarth. If not one of the competing guilds, some passing merchant or even a thief from the harbor. We'll see jow Dany gets her dragons back, but hopefully it relates to them ackowledging her as their mother, which I find believable and will close that door.

[akajea]

Quote

And did we really, really have to pull the “steal dragons” genie out of the bottle? It undercuts the Qartheen ceremonial, refined culture to simply have someone decide to steal the dragons because, in the end, what can Dany truly do? And it throws into question why we’re not going to see attempts next season, and the season after that, and the season after that.

Also take issue with this. It was simply baffling that no one tried to steal her dragons in the book. These are the greatest weapons that ever was or will be, the fictional equivalent to the atomic bomb, and they just let her go after she turns them down? A culture that has a basic sin like stealing be so taboo would never develop in our world, it goes against human nature completely. If that is their culture, Qartheens are as alien as the Others.

And as to how they will explain a lack of attempts in the future? Simple. Rumors. Drogon burns the HotU to the ground. We all know how rumors are, like chinese whispers. By the time the rumor reaches other cities, it'll be something like "The warlocks tried to steal the Dragonmother's babies, but she morphed into a terrible giant silver-scaled purple-eyed dragon, and destroyed them all with demonic rainbow firebreath." Of course, the smart ones will be skeptical, but it will make them just slightly more hesitant to try something.

By the time she's done in Astapor, she's basically the strongest force in Essos anyway.

Edited by akajea, 08 May 2012 - 07:50 AM.

[Ty3009]

Ran, on 08 May 2012 - 03:48 AM, said:

That's the role in the narrative.

Spoiler

From the birth of the dragons to the destruction of the House of the Undying, Daenerys's story is following folkloric tropes. Something supernatural happening doesn't just get shaken off -- Dany travels into the desert after the red comet, she finds a dead city, she sends her bloodriders in three directions and one by one they return with news of wonders and dead cities and a living city where no other habitation can be found, and there are suddenly "three wise men" there leading her, each offering her something.

Once the Undying are vanquished, Qarth is no longer the place of splendor -- now Dany sees it for what it is, a place that offers much but gives little, just like any other place. The illusion is destroyed, and suddenly a ship from across the sea arrives to spirit her away, bringing her back into the world.

That is, in any case, my view.

Oh, and updated with a correction or two, plus the latest Thronecast video.

Perhaps I didn't see it that way.  Different strokes and whatnot.

I saw Quarth as a city in which various factions are vying for power whether through scheming/treachery, money, or magic.  Kind of like the entire series.

[_Oberyn_]

Ran, on 07 May 2012 - 03:18 AM, said:

I'd hope it feels slanted by someone having an opinion, rather than being the meanderings of a Vulcan or a robot.

Mileage varies, but one thing I can't stand are scenes that insult my intelligence. The Lorch scene was symptomatic of strange choices that simply seemed to assume that viewers were to stupid or too dazzled to care. Those first ten minutes simply didn't win that much charity from me. It left me disappointed as nothing else in the series to date has.

And the review was bang on. I think alot of people are jizzing their pants over nothing this season while most of the stuff is mediocre, the "good scenes" are just what people were taking for granted in season one, because most of it was good.

Also the "WTF" Lorch moment was realy cheesy, I was expecting a benner to scroll acros the bottom of the screen saying "Chuck Norris approves this killing".