35 replies to this topic

[The Anti-Targ]

DaveSumm, on 08 May 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

I really didn't read the Harrenhal scenes the same way at all. Was Lorch's death really supposed to humorous? I didn't think so. The mysterious aspect of Jaqen's abilities that we see in the novels when the dog turns on his master has been lost, so we needed something to tell us that Jaqen isn't just some guy who believes three people need to die - he's actually GOOD at this. On a moments notice, he concocted a means of Amory dying and implemented it in the nick of time. I didn't for a second think it was funny.

Also, I've read the books twice and I didn't even think that a letter would have to be run by a Maester. To suggest that this is a glaring error that would have been picked up by a TV viewer seems a little silly to me. Maybe Lorch's retinue carry their own ravens and he dealt with the letter through his own people? Hardly more of a change than any other we've seen on the show. You could just as easily say that Theon's thought of writing to Robb was silly because it would have to have gone through someone else on Pyke.

Ultimately, I think all of the Harrenhal plots have been worth the changes simply to see the resulting Tywin/Arya scenes. I was sceptical at first of the decision to switch Tywin and Roose but I think it was the right choice. This episode was one of the best so far in my opinion.

To be fair, why would a Lannister host have a raven trained to home to some minor house in the North? "Send this to letter to House Mumble forthwith." "Sorry ser, but we have no ravens for that house." Is how I see that conversation going in an internally consistent sub-sub-sub-sub plot within the larger story.
Now in that context I do see Amory Lorch handing over a letter saying "Send this off immediately" and walking away, then the maester, or whomever, looking at the address and going "What the...? I better run this by his Lordship to make sure this is where he actually wants the letter to go. At which time his Lordship facepalms and decides to give ser Amory a good old fashioned dressing down."

There are credible ways for Amory to mis-direct an important set of orders or whatever and for this to come to the attention of Tywin. And Tywin being Tywin he has little time for incompetence, and given his later scene talking about Jaime's dyslexia Tywin would be inclined to treat another dislexic with a degree of contempt.

So if a raven actually got sent to the wrong place, that's not credible. But a semi-literate, dyslexic Amory Lorch putting the wrong address on a letter and this being reported through to Tywin is kinda credible. Why Amory had to be on the out with Tywin is a whole other question regarding time wasting of precious minutes on trivialities, as it doesn't really seem necessary given he would react to Arya having that letter the same way if he was in Tywin's good books.

What I could have accepted as a valid reason for a scene where Amory gets a telling off from Tywin is Amory subsequently being in a particularly shitty mood and abusing Arya with a smack around the head for her spilling a bit of water on his boots or some other minor inconvenience, at which point Arya hotheadedly wastes another assassination in an act of petty vengeance.

[DaveSumm]

I'm not saying it totally adds up, but I can't possibly imagine an average TV viewer noticing this. The reviews so far have been very fair and I've enjoyed reading them a great deal, but it seemed odd that what I see as a very minor oversight was deemed to completely ruin an episode this time - one that I think is the best in the series so far. The Winterfell scenes were superb (Alfie Allen was incredible in these scenes) and the Tywin/Arya scenes were fantastic. Even in the books, the actual logistics of ravenry aren't made explicitly clear, one assumes that they have ravens trained to 'home' on various locations but this is never explained outright IIRC. An intimate working knowledge of how the raven system works seems an incredibly big ask for a TV viewer.

[The Last Dragon]

The Anti-Targ, on 09 May 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

What I could have accepted as a valid reason for a scene where Amory gets a telling off from Tywin is Amory subsequently being in a particularly shitty mood and abusing Arya with a smack around the head for her spilling a bit of water on his boots or some other minor inconvenience, at which point Arya hotheadedly wastes another assassination in an act of petty vengeance.

To be honest, this would be a lot more believable. A dirk in the back of Lorch would be more believable, him stumbling to his knees through the door with his throat cut open from ear to ear would be more believable.

I absolutely loved this episode, but minor tweaks in the same scenes would be much more believable and less far fetched than what we saw. A mad Lorch who disliked Arya for making him look bad in the presence of mighty Tywin, would be enough ground to make a plausible story for Jaquen's second kill.

[Ran]

That's even better. Frankly, it's an aspect of Arya's storyline that's missing -- the abuse she suffers at Harrenhal, which hardens her heart some and helps lead to her attitudes later on. Having Amory Lorch beat on her, and Tywin not particularly care, would have been just the approach.

[Buckwheat]

I join the ones who think the rewiew to be overtly negative.

I agree that the Winerfell scenes were the best of the episode. Killing Rodrik now or a little later is not that important, and even the non-readers know him. Nobody would know who it was if they decided to kill a random extra who is suppsed to be Mikken the blacksmith.

I am not sure why Lorch's death would seem like an attempt to humor to anyone. It is a weird method of killing, but I do not see anything funny about it and do not think they were trying to make it funny.

boojam, on 08 May 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

I am impressed with Dubrovnik , it's 'back streets' are better than the ones at Malta, and larger vistas look good, but I am curious about architectural CGI enhancement as we had the first season. I don't think I am seeing it.

I miss them too, especially the look at the Red Keep from outside.

[boojam]

The Last Dragon, on 09 May 2012 - 03:39 AM, said:

To be honest, this would be a lot more believable. A dirk in the back of Lorch would be more believable, him stumbling to his knees through the door with his throat cut open from ear to ear would be more believable.

I absolutely loved this episode, but minor tweaks in the same scenes would be much more believable and less far fetched than what we saw. A mad Lorch who disliked Arya for making him look bad in the presence of mighty Tywin, would be enough ground to make a plausible story for Jaquen's second kill.

Has anybody made the point that Amory Lorch is the perfect victim for Arya..... because , he delived the coup de grace to Yoren? I am sure it was him. Arya would of had more affection for Yoren than even any of the Tickler's victims.
Toss out the whole message thing. Lorch would probably have recognized Arya from the capture and march to Harrenhal...have him abuse her. Total that up, especially the Yoren thing, and she would of had more than enough motivation to finger Lorch for Jaqen.
Seems D&D are setting up some kind of action sequence that could have been imagined some other way.
It's a minor fumble, but could have been fixed so easily.

[boojam]

Buckwheat, on 09 May 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

I miss them too, especially the look at the Red Keep from outside.

Yeah there were not a lot, last season they had some lovely shots of a VFX-ed Malta in the background that were very effective. There is one (maybe another) 'aerial' view of Dubrovnik that looks CGI enhanced.... but those are the only long shots... seem to be a lot of medium to tight shots in Dubrovnik.
Now Dubrovnik is a totally remarkable 'middle ages' looking town, surely it has some open squares or Piazza for some of the set ups.

[The hairy bear]

boojam, on 09 May 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

Now Dubrovnik is a totally remarkable 'middle ages' looking town, surely it has some open squares or Piazza for some of the set ups.

I can't think of any square in Dubrovnik's old city that can be used (the ones that come to my mind are full of churches or renaissance palaces).

I also think Dubrovnik has been an improve from Malta. However, I have the feeling that the actual vistas and sets do not match at all the first aerial shot we got of King's Landing. Those giant towers of should be seen from everywhere, the architectural styles do not combine very well, and the walls of Tyrion or Cersei's chambers have a different color.

[boojam]

The hairy bear, on 09 May 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

I can't think of any square in Dubrovnik's old city that can be used (the ones that come to my mind are full of churches or renaissance palaces).

I also think Dubrovnik has been an improve from Malta. However, I have the feeling that the actual vistas and sets do not match at all the first aerial shot we got of King's Landing. Those giant towers of should be seen from everywhere, the architectural styles do not combine very well, and the walls of Tyrion or Cersei's chambers have a different color.

Yes I remember that shot, it's a stunner.
Well a map of Dubrovnik shows there are camera POVs, if you can put a camera there that would duplicate that same view from season one. I seem to remember a view in S1, what E8?, of Ned walking along with this gorgeous view of the RK in the background.
An Harrenhal this season, perfect place for a few seconds of a long vista shot, we seem to have only gotten one sort of 'mid view' looked good...
Have they really shot their CGI budget on Blackwater and (wild guess) dragons (finally).
The one green screen of Qarth looked like a knock out, then zero vistas. The opening credit model looks like it's a schematic copy of that. I know it's not cheap, but even tho Pixomondo is a bigger group of CGI companies than Blue Bolt... and do a perfect job when called on (Drogon looked terrific episode before last) they can't cost that much more... so I don't know what is going on.

Edited by boojam, 09 May 2012 - 09:05 AM.

[Reposado]

I hadn't seen these, and I must say, you perfect encapsulated the problems I had with this episode, which was certainly the worst yet imo. Look forward to reading them each week.

boojam, on 09 May 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

Has anybody made the point that Amory Lorch is the perfect victim for Arya..... because , he delived the coup de grace to Yoren? I am sure it was him. Arya would of had more affection for Yoren than even any of the Tickler's victims.

I thought of that, and they totally wasted it by having the reason she chooses him because he is about to expose her to Tywin

and yeah, its tough to fit ACOK into ten episodes, but no one forced them to do that.

[Buckwheat]

boojam, on 09 May 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

Now Dubrovnik is a totally remarkable 'middle ages' looking town, surely it has some open squares or Piazza for some of the set ups.

The hairy bear, on 09 May 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

I can't think of any square in Dubrovnik's old city that can be used (the ones that come to my mind are full of churches or renaissance palaces).

No, I do not remember any either ...

Quote

I also think Dubrovnik has been an improve from Malta. However, I have the feeling that the actual vistas and sets do not match at all the first aerial shot we got of King's Landing. Those giant towers of should be seen from everywhere, the architectural styles do not combine very well, and the walls of Tyrion or Cersei's chambers have a different color.

I noticed that the cities are pretty different too. I do not think they especially tried to make the places look similar. The scene in firt or secon episode this season with Shae looking over the city from the walls of the Red Keep shows an entirely different town than the one in this link.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Of course the Lorch death was played for humor, because the entire thing is slapstick.  From Arya's escape from Lorch into the courtyard, like he couldn't have just yelled "seize that girl!"?

And then these was her whole interaction with Jaqen. Which by the way is what I disliked most about that scene.  Jaqen has been turned from a mysterious and dangerous figure in a very dark and dangerous place as Harrenhal to a light an fluffy BFF to Arya.  The entire sequence felt like belongs more in a "Princess Bride" or "Your Highness" instead of A Game of Thrones.

The tone is completely wrong.  Arya's turn into the girl with a hole where her heart used to be is not supposed to happen this way.

[bemused]

I don't like Vanessa Taylor's writing, much..There's too much of a tendency to rely on modernity in her writing. E.g. : the Robb / "Talisa" scenes , which are accompanied by retching noises at my house.  I'm kind of sorry she's become a permanent member of the writing staff. I believe I read somewhere that she hasn't read any of the books.. (Is this right ? ) So what's she adapting , a synopsis and selection of dialogue quotes to draw from ?... I guess... If she has read at least the relevant chapters, I'm afraid I think even less of her work.

She may technically be able to construct and hour long episode that's well paced..( I could stay absorbed for the hour ) I even had hopes she was going be doing much better than she did with Ep.14 , during the Winterfell opening...but no..

If you read the reactions of show only viewers ,you couldn't doubt that the whole scenario from Arya being stopped by Lorch, up until the Lorch death was written for comedic effect.I disliked eye-rolling Jaqen ... And what has happened to the little gems of wisdom that he slips to her along the way , in the books ( even while maintaining his air of mystery and danger ) ? Gone. ( I agree with the Princess Bride / Your Highness assessment. )

I suppose they thought they needed a change of pace after all the tension in the obligatory Littlefinger scene..

And it dismayed me further to hear people commenting on a podcast how Arya always seems to find these male mentors..Jon, her father , Syrio , and now... Tywin.

Edited by bemused, 10 May 2012 - 02:10 AM.

[Raja]

I think not reading a book is not too bad as it provides a good mix. Having her would provide a good balance as D and D are actively involved in the writing team , having someone who has not read them would benefit the viewers who have not read the books themselves. And that I can only think is a good thing.

[CrypticWeirwood]

DaveSumm, on 08 May 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

I really didn't read the Harrenhal scenes the same way at all. Was Lorch's death really supposed to humorous? I didn't think so. The mysterious aspect of Jaqen's abilities that we see in the novels when the dog turns on his master has been lost, so we needed something to tell us that Jaqen isn't just some guy who believes three people need to die - he's actually GOOD at this. On a moments notice, he concocted a means of Amory dying and implemented it in the nick of time. I didn't for a second think it was funny.

I’m with you on that one all the way. It truly never occurred to me that there was anything at all amusing to Lorch falling dead right at the threshold to Tywin’s chambers, let alone funny in a slapstick or audible guffaw kind of way. When I read people here saying that sort of thing, I just didn’t know where they were coming from.  Still don’t, really.

I dunno.  Maybe I need to have my funny bone examined; it may be malfunctioning.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood, 13 May 2012 - 05:31 PM.

[BlackTalon]

The hairy bear, on 09 May 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

I have the feeling that the actual vistas and sets do not match at all the first aerial shot we got of King's Landing.

I am currently using that shot as my desktop background :-)

It is a great picture by itself, but I always thought it was a pretty bad "Red Keep". That fortress is supposed to look brutal and intimidating, just like Maegor the cruel. Instead we got some fancy neuschwansteinish thing that look like something from a Disney fairytale or what a baker would put on top of a wedding cake.