180 replies to this topic

[tze]

Bran Vras, on 10 May 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

There is a single thing which is certain about the birth of the dragons:  three lifes (Rhaego, Drogo, Mirri) had to be sacrificed. The equation is clear: a life has to pay for a life. But not all sacrificed lives are equal, and the newborn depends on whose life has been taken. In a certain way, the newborn inherits something from the sacrificed creature. Dany hints to that by the choice of the names of her dragons.

The idea of a human being reborn into an animal form is something we've seen literally (with wargs) and metaphorically (Ramsay claims the women who give him "good sport" get "reborn" as his dogs after he murders them). But can we really say that Rhaego was sacrificed during, or for the purposes of, this ritual? I don't think we can. (For that matter, was Drogo's "life" still even a factor during this ritual? Not necessarily.) Right now, readers still have no idea what ultimately happened to Rhaego's body at all. We can't even confirm 100% that he's actually dead. But there's no mention whatsoever of his body being placed on that pyre (and given that Dany goes into great specifics about the objects on that pyre, you'd think her infant son's presence would have been noted). Not to mention, if Rhaego's spirit really was switched with Drogo's spirit in the tent (which, granted, wasn't necessarily the case) . . . then either the sacrifice of Rhaego could have played no further role on the pyre, as sacrificing and then re-sacrificing something seems like it defeats the point of a "sacrifice", or "Rhaego" was actually really sacrificed when Dany smothered Drogo's body, and Drogo's spirit played no role on the pyre.

Because Drogo's "spirit" had supposedly left his body at the time Dany smothered him. That was the whole point---whatever transfer Mirri effectuated, it wasn't enough to restore him to himself. Drogo was no longer Drogo when Dany smothered him. The spirit in him seems like it was either Rhaego's spirit (the spirit of a child) or the spirit of his horse, but either way, the flesh on that pyre does not appear to have necessarily held Drogo's actual essence as its last "occupant" before death.

So there are explicitly three "bodies" on that pyre: Drogo, Mirri, and a dead horse. (Note that this horse is not Drogo's stallion, but rather, a horse from the small herd that remained after the khalasar broke up---this is one of the horses the new khals didn't take, so presumably it's one of the "lesser" horses). I think no matter which way you look at it, three human lives can't be said to have been sacrificed for that pyre. At best, you come up with two humans and a horse. At worst, you come up with two horse "souls" (the horse on the pyre, the horse in the tent that might have gone into Drogo's flesh) and a human being (Mirri).

(As a side note, if Drogon has the spirit of a horse, it might actually explain a number of things about him. Why he lets Dany ride him without any magical implements. Why he responds to a whip in the pit when we know the whip doesn't actually hurt him. Why he camps out on the Dothraki Sea instead of attacking villages and neighboring cities in Slaver's Bay (which Drogo's spirit would logically have inspired a dragon to do)---it's not the dragon's spirit, it's not Drogo, it's all about the horse. And actually, given the bits mentioned upthread about a connection between the fall of Valyria and the rise of the Dothraki . . . perhaps ancient Valyria originally "tamed" dragons by effecting some type of horse-transfer, a transfer between an animal that was ordinarily ridden and this wild fire-breathing monster? No evidence there, just thinking aloud.)

I think this discussion would be enhanced by an analysis of what was "actually" going on in Drogo's tent, as that event served as our only precedent for Mirri's magic. (Not to mention, look at the physical parallels: the tent involved Mirri, Drogo, and a horse all inside the tent, surrounded by shadows, with Dany and the khalasar outside; Jorah then carried Dany into the tent. The pyre involved Mirri, Drogo, and a horse together on a platform surrounded by flames, with Dany and the (lessened) khalasar outside; Dany then walked into the flames under her own power.).

Mirri claims she wanted all along to destroy the Stallion that Mounts the World, that Rhaego was always going to be the "death" needed to save Drogo. She says that a mere horse would never have been enough. It's assumed that, by carrying Dany into the pyre, Jorah inadvertently condemned Rhaego to death, as being in the tent is assumed to be necessary for the spell to work. But that doesn't necessarily make sense, because Mirri is the one who actively prevented Dany from remaining in the tent during the ritual:

Quote

She sent her handmaids away. "Go with them, Silver Lady," Mirri Maz Duur told her.
"I will stay," Dany said. "The man took me under the stars and gave life to the child inside me. I will not leave him."
"You must. Once I begin to sing, no one must enter this tent. My song will wake powers old and dark."

If Mirri's spell relied all along on Dany's (and therefore Rhaego's) presence in the tent to effectuate a Rhaego/Drogo transfer . . . why on earth would she take such steps to prevent Dany from being in that tent during the spell? It seems incredibly counterintuitive.

I think there are two options here: 1) Bringing Dany into the tent didn't cause Rhaego's death, because Mirri was perfectly capable of using him as a sacrifice even when he was outside the tent's confines, or 2) The horse actually was meant as the sacrifice all along, and Rhaego either isn't dead or his death played no part in this ritual. Both options have interesting implications for what happened on the pyre.

Option 1) implies that Mirri's magic has a precedent for affecting someone physically outside the confines of the place where magic is being performed. In both instances Dany entered, against all counsel, the physical place where the magic was being performed---the physical confines of the tent, and later the flames of the pyre. But if Mirri's magic really could affect Rhaego inside Dany's body when both were outside the tent, couldn't her magic logically have also been affecting Dany when she was still outside the pyre? And look at the magic actually used in the tent: a human life initially found outside the tent (Rhaego, who was in Dany's womb) was supposedly exchanged in order to preserve a human life found inside the tent (Drogo). It seemingly wasn't intended to birth Rhaego (at least, not in a way that would lead to him surviving) or to resurrect Drogo (as Drogo wasn't dead yet).

But if Mirri's magic was able to affect Rhaego outside the tent all along, why did she bother telling people to stay outside? If it didn't matter if Rhaego was inside or outside the tent, as Mirri was able to kill him either way, (as events imply to be a possibility), why bother kicking everyone out of the tent in the first place? Perhaps the reason was simply that Mirri didn't want any interruptions. If Dany had been inside the tent at the start, she might have done something to interfere with Mirri's song, especially once the pains started, and Mirri could have wanted to avoid that. If that's true, then the fire's effects on Mirri's song---causing her to switch from singing to screams---could be an issue.

Option 2) can answer a number of issues regarding Mirri's ultimate "plan". Clearly she never intended on Drogo returning "as he was". It's not in her interests or the interests of her people to have Khal Drogo rampaging again. If she really thought the ritual wouldn't work with a horse, and she needed Rhaego . . . why kick Dany out and specifically tell everyone to stay outside, leaving her alone with just the horse? And if someone's presence in the tent mattered (and there's a chance that it might have) then given that Mirri forbade every human being from entering the tent, perhaps the whole plan all along was to switch Drogo's life for his horse's life, so that Drogo ended up with a "lesser", inhuman life-force. But if her "targeting" was foolproof, why would it matter if there were humans in the tent? Perhaps Mirri was afraid that her magic might seek a different target if other people were in the tent along with the horse, and that's why she kicked everyone out. If Jorah had dropped dead in that tent, or even Dany herself . . . perhaps Khal Drogo actually would have been restored to full health (an adult human life exchanged for an adult human life, especially in the case of Jorah, who was a warrior and (at one point in his past) a leader of men, like Drogo). And Mirri of course didn't want that.

And I think the issue of what really happened to Rhaego (is he alive or dead?) would logically inform Mirri's choices vis a vis the pyre. If Rhaego is alive---if someone grabbed him and took off when the khalasar split, and Jorah didn't tell Dany because he knew she'd have had no real way of either finding or rescuing him---then in MIrri's eyes, the Stallion would still be a threat. How to counteract him? Well, dragons would do it. But dragons in the control of Rhaego's mother . . . that makes no sense.  Dragons in the control of Mirri Maz Duur, in the control of the Lamb Men, would make more sense from Mirri's perspective. (Remember what the Valyrians were before they got dragons: shepherds.) But if Rhaego is dead, introducing dragons into the equation makes far less sense, from Mirri's perspective.

We know Mirri knows Marwyn, a Westerosi maester. It's very possible she has knowledge of Westeros and the Targaryens. What were the Targaryens known for? Not for hatching dragon eggs---quite the opposite, actually. They were known for getting themselves killed in rather spectacular ways while trying to hatch dragon eggs. If Mirri wanted dragons for herself, first she'd need some eggs. Dany's eggs weren't readily accessible. A scenario whereby Mirri manipulates Dany into getting the requisite elements together, with Mirri expecting that Dany will get herself killed in the hatching process (as Targaryens are wont to do), thus providing a necessary blood sacrifice and leaving Mirri Maz Duur with some brand-new dragons, sounds like a more reasonable interpretation to me than a scenario where Mirri works hard to give Dany dragons. Because even if you disagree that Mirri wants Dany to suffer . . . she keeps, rather rightly, calling Dany a naive child. And working hard to give a naive child fire-breathing death machines strikes me as absurd.

[tze]

I hate double-posting, but I wanted to bring this up, because nobody's really been discussing it: why do people think Dany's hair burned off in the pyre? It's such a random point, but presumably GRRM included it for a reason. I gave my speculation in the original post (it's evidence that Dany wasn't fully fireproof, which points to the nature of her "fireproof-ness" deriving from an external (and not foolproof) source, i.e. Mirri).

For that matter, in the Dothraki culture, losing one's hair is a sign of defeat. Dany points this out the last time she touches Drogo's body before lighting the pyre:

Quote

She washed his body clean and brushed and oiled his hair, running her fingers through it for the last time, feeling the weight of it, remembering the first time she had touched it, the night of their wedding ride. His hair had never been cut. How many men could die with their hair uncut?

The fact that she loses all her hair in the pyre, an indication of a khal's defeat, could be a sign that the result of the pyre, which Dany sees as her great victory, is really nothing of the sort.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[Apple Martini]

I really don't know about the hair. I think it's an interesting point about losing one's hair equaling defeat for the Dothraki, but not sure if that was GRRM's intention there. I do think it's odd that someone who's supposedly fireproof (even in that moment) still lost her hair. Unless we're meant to contrast that with the fighting pit, in which her hair burns but not all the way off (as I read it), nor did her clothing, and conclude that the fighting pit was NOT another "fireproof" moment.

Edited by Apple Martini, 13 May 2012 - 04:55 PM.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Well tze I really have no idea what to think now, about Dany's hair being burned off in the pyre, after reading all of the logical thoughts on the forum. I think I'll wait and see on this one because even though Martin is writing fantasy I still think he prefers logical explanations.

I'll tell you what I thought the first time I read the Dany emerging from the pyre; I saw it as a possible sign of her rebirth, coming back into the world the same as the first time she was born. I knew I should still question this and pay attention as I continued to read but it was my first impression.

[Bran Vras]

It's a bit late for me to reply to all posts in detail. Regarding tze's objection about the three sacrificed lives, I based also my reasoning on the following passage (Daenerys, ACoK):

Quote

[The dragons] had been born from her faith and her need, given life by the deaths of her husband and unborn son and the maegi Mirri Maz Duur.

My understanding is that both Drogo's and Rhaego's spirits were taken by the shadows in the tent summoned by Mirri Maz Durr, and duly counted as two of the three needed sacrifices for the final ritual. Perhaps bodies on the pyre were necessary as well, though.

Greenhand: excellent finding about Moqorro. The high wailing songs are not part of the repertoire of the red priest in principle, are they?

Elaena: No idea about the great wolf and the man in flame in the tent, but I'd love to be enlightened. And I missed the twist and stretch part. (I don't know how to explain that Dany felt motherly feeling for that egg.)

[kissdbyfire]

GreenHand, on 13 May 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

I find the idea that the quality of a sacrifice is important. Perhaps this is value of Kings blood, but what of the life/blood of a mage? Beware Melisandre and Marwyn.


Although Mirri mentions birthing alot and specifically songs of birthing (and the dragons are born). Consider that Moquorro uses a comparable sort of singing (we never hear Melisandre singing, even though it seems to work!) from Moquorro to heal Victarion with fire.

We do see Melisandre singing at least once, and again there's fire and ashes.

ACoK, chapter 10, Davos:

"Stannis peeled off the glove and let it fall to the ground. The gods in the pyre were scarcely recognizable anymore. The head fell off the Smith with a puff of ash and embers. Melisandre sang in the tongue of Asshai, her voice rising and falling like the tides of the sea. Stannis untied his singed leather cape and listened in silence. Thrust in the ground, Lightbringer still glowed ruddy hot, but the flames that clung to the sword were dwindling and dying.
By the time the song was done, only charwood remained of the gods, and the king’s patience had run its course."

[Baelor Blackfyre]

First of all let me say your theory is pretty amazing. Very observant. Actually ridiculously observant. I agree with pretty much everything you said. So I have no quarrel with any of your points regarding Dany's fireproof-ness, or really lack there of, in reference to the pyre. But I'm curious to what you have to say about Dany's encounter with Drogon in ADwD.

Quote, p. 698
"Drogon roared full in her face, his breath hot enough to blister skin."

But yet in the next chapter, Dany seems to have no burns on her face at all.

Quote, p. 699
"Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dipped onto the scorched sands. He is fire made flesh, she thought and so am I.

A weaker point, but one I wanted to bring up. So Drogon was bleeding was assumed to be pretty hot blood all over his back, but yet Daenerys hops on him, pulls the spear out and rides him. Since the blood was dripping onto the sand, I'm assuming that he would have blood all over his back and neck. But yet she rode him and held onto his neck.

Edited by Baelor Blackfyre, 14 June 2012 - 10:08 PM.

[tze]

Baelor Blackfyre, on 14 June 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

But I'm curious to what you have to say about Dany's encounter with Drogon in ADwD.

Quote, p. 698
"Drogon roared full in her face, his breath hot enough to blister skin."

But yet in the next chapter, Dany seems to have no burns on her face at all.

I think the answer's pretty clear: Drogon's breath, while hot, wasn't actually "hot enough to blister skin" here, given that his breath here never blisters skin. Remember, all of this comes solely via Dany's POV. She has no way of objectively measuring the amount of heat coming from Drogon's breath here, and she has no way of judging what the "usual" effects of this particular heat blast would be on human skin other than by looking at what's happening to her own skin. If she has no blisters on her skin, then this breath cannot be considered to actually be hot enough to physically blister skin. The only way for her to have said that Drogon's breath here was literally hot enough to blister skin would be if someone had been standing right next to Dany, gotten a faceful of Drogon's breath, and had gotten blisters from that heat (or if Dany herself had gotten blisters on her face from that heat). Given that neither of these things happen, there's no reason whatsoever to take Dany's statement of the amount of heat given off by Drogon's breath as anything other than a colorful way of saying that Drogon's breath was very hot.

Baelor Blackfyre, on 14 June 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

Quote, p. 699
"Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dipped onto the scorched sands. He is fire made flesh, she thought and so am I.

A weaker point, but one I wanted to bring up. So Drogon was bleeding was assumed to be pretty hot blood all over his back, but yet Daenerys hops on him, pulls the spear out and rides him. Since the blood was dripping onto the sand, I'm assuming that he would have blood all over his back and neck. But yet she rode him and held onto his neck.

I don't think there's any reason to assume Drogon had blood all over his back or all of his neck. If Drogon really had blood all over his back and neck, then Dany's clothing would have come into contact with that blood when she rode him. Not only is no mention made of her clothing being burned, but she explicitly mentions stains on her tunic made from "sweat and grass and dirt", while making no mention of any bloodstains (or blood-caused holes). Drogon is stabbed at the base of his neck with a spearpoint, and the blood drips onto the sands---there's no reason to assume it was flowing over his back or up his neck, rather than to down the sides of his body. All Dany had to do was sit on Drogon's back, grab onto the part of his neck above the base, and by avoiding touching that small wound or the stream of blood flowing down Drogon's side, and she'd be fine.

For that matter, note that Dany's hands are burned, presumably when she grasped the spear that had been heated by Drogon's blood. She is never described touching Drogon's actual blood, but that is the only time she's ever described as coming into contact with anything connected to Drogon's blood, and she ends up with burns.

Edited by tze, 14 June 2012 - 11:14 PM.

[Baelor Blackfyre]

tze, on 14 June 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

I think the answer's pretty clear: Drogon's breath, while hot, wasn't actually "hot enough to blister skin" here, given that his breath here never blisters skin. Remember, all of this comes solely via Dany's POV. She has no way of objectively measuring the amount of heat coming from Drogon's breath here, and she has no way of judging what the "usual" effects of this particular heat blast would be on human skin other than by looking at what's happening to her own skin. If she has no blisters on her skin, then this breath cannot be considered to actually be hot enough to physically blister skin. The only way for her to have said that Drogon's breath here was literally hot enough to blister skin would be if someone had been standing right next to Dany, gotten a faceful of Drogon's breath, and had gotten blisters from that heat (or if Dany herself had gotten blisters on her face from that heat). Given that neither of these things happen, there's no reason whatsoever to take Dany's statement of the amount of heat given off by Drogon's breath as anything other than a colorful way of saying that Drogon's breath was very hot.

I don't think there's any reason to assume Drogon had blood all over his back or all of his neck. If Drogon really had blood all over his back and neck, then Dany's clothing would have come into contact with that blood when she rode him. Not only is no mention made of her clothing being burned, but she explicitly mentions stains on her tunic made from "sweat and grass and dirt", while making no mention of any bloodstains (or blood-caused holes). Drogon is stabbed at the base of his neck with a spearpoint, and the blood drips onto the sands---there's no reason to assume it was flowing over his back or up his neck, rather than to down the sides of his body. All Dany had to do was sit on Drogon's back, grab onto the part of his neck above the base, and by avoiding touching that small wound or the stream of blood flowing down Drogon's side, and she'd be fine.

For that matter, note that Dany's hands are burned, presumably when she grasped the spear that had been heated by Drogon's blood. She is never described touching Drogon's actual blood, but that is the only time she's ever described as coming into contact with anything connected to Drogon's blood, and she ends up with burns.

Quote.
"The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me. It had been the same in Daznak's Pit. that much she could recall...The sun grew hotter as it rose, and before long her head was pounding, Dany's hair was growing out again, but slowly."

But her hair was burned off, completely. And the only time it seems she was in direct contact with heat that could do this, was Drogon's breath.

He did try to hit her with some fire, but she dodged it, and I don't really see that circumstance completely burning off all of hair. Perhaps the fireball could have singed her hair a little or lit her hair on fire. But since she doesn't make note of either of that happening, I don't really see it. The only time she does make note of something that could do some damage to her was his breath. So for me, the most likely candidate for her hair being burnt off was the point blank range blast of dragon breath she took in the face.

Quote.
"She remembered the dragon twisting beneath her, shuddering at the impacts, as she tried desperately to cling to his scaled back. The wounds were smoking. Dany saw one of the bolts burst into sudden flame."

I find it hard to imagine that when your riding a dragon for the first time, and keeping in mind the pure chaos they just came from, that you would make note not to touch certain parts of the dragon your riding. It's hold on and live, or fall off and die. So I think it would have been normal in the situation to accidently get burned by his blood, which from several descriptions is very hot. He's also taking on several more wounds, which means more blood, thus more heat.

And while I agree that she only noted sweat, grass and dirt on her clothes. She did note that they were in pretty rough shape, appearing as rags. And if we keep in mind that his blood just made a crossbow bolt burst into sudden flame, I highly doubt her clothes would show any signs of blood. The blood would have just burned right through her clothes, turning them into rags. Which is how they appear.

I agree with your theory and I'm not arguing she IS fireproof or resistant to fire. But her whole encounter with Drogon throws a wrench in the engine for me.

Edited by Baelor Blackfyre, 15 June 2012 - 01:16 AM.

[IAmNobody]

Tze and Greenhand both have interesting theories.

But I disagree with the theory that MMD was chanting to save her life or hatch the eggs.
Let's consider the sequence of events and MMD's reactions...
Dany makes it clear MMD is going to burn. MMD calmly says that Dany won't hear her scream and by that I assume that MMD isn't afraid of any death Dany can give her.
That is until Dany makes the "not your screams, only your life" comment. That gives MMD pause. The fear in MMD's eyes is then not the fear of death, but the fear of what will happen to her soul if Dany invokes blood magic. MMD of all people should know what can happen to shades and souls.

And so my theory is that she was chanting to end her life before the fires got to her. So that her soul wouldn't be trapped in this world to do the bidding of shadow binders and sorcerers.

But the fires got to her first. And her life paid for the life of the first dragon hatched.

People keep talking about possessing magic. And I always figured that people can only be conduits of magic, not possessors. So the magic that had been set in motion by the funeral pyre didn't need either Dany or MMD specifically.

Here is my theory. MMD started the ball rolling unwillingly by trying to bring more magic into an already blood-magicked situation. Her life bought the life of Dragon no. 1. Why this didn't happen at Summerhall is a good question. I suspect because Egg wasn't a strong enough conduit to the magic. But Dany was.
But the question remains whose lives bought dragons no. 2 and 3?
Drogo was already dead when he was laid on the pyre. And Dany remained alive. So whose lives where claimed?

About Dany's non-burning issue.
Someone raised the issue of living flesh being unburnt but the dead parts of the body like hair burning away. They went on to say this isn't logical because her nails didn't burn.
It's easier for strands of hair to catch fire and burn no? As opposed to densely packed cells of keratin stuck to your fingers?

Her un-burning signified that while everything else in the fire burned, her body was a vessel to the magic and so remainedsafe.

I believe that the dragons hatched because they were ready not because of Dany's X factor.
Like the Others came on their own, without human intervention, the dragons came too.

[JonTargaryenW/Viserion4WIN]

I tend to agree that Dany's unburnt moments were not evidence that she is immune to fire. It has been exhausted in many threads and I don't want to beat a dead horse (or burn one).  

The pyre and dragons were an amazing way to kick off an epic fantasy series and was really our first introduction into the magic that exists in this world. But when considering the magic involved in the birth of the dragons it is crucial to examine the whole world and the existence of other supernatural phenomena that correspond to the reemergence of dragons.

The red comet is the celestial omen signaling the return of dragons. It is known by Old Nan and is definitely embraced by Dany as a beacon of hope.

Celestial bodies have always been associated with Gods in our world and likewise in GRRM's world. The second moon that traveled to close to the sun and cracked, releasing dragons initially unto he world, is a prime example. Though this is purely myth, it is precise enough metaphorically that we the readers can draw some literal parallels to Dany's dragons. They too require heat to crack and be born.

But this to me is a no brained.
Almost all egg born animals (birds and reptiles) require incubation in a non-cold environment.
It would go without question that an animal that is "fire made flesh" would require a lot of heat to inubate properly, and a hypothetical wild mother dragon would have the means of providing an intense amount of heat to properly do this.

But using fire to hatch dragons eggs is not a new idea. The Westerosi Targs have been attempting this for a while to no avail.

What treatment then did Dany's dragons receive that was not new?

As some very thoughtful boarders have brought to light, magic and a maegi to wield that magic (and  from what we are led to believe it is real magic) played a vital role in the pyre occurrence.

I tend to agree that some spell was cast and that may have directly or indirectly protected Dany from the flames. But I'm still not convinced that magic played a part in the hatching.

Instead I tend to think of the hatching as more of a miraculous event, something Martin is said to have alluded to (though I haven't read this first hand). The dragons were reborn into a world that has only recently been reintroduced to a mythical evil that hails from the coldest part of the world. It has been many thousands of years since the White Walkers have assailed Westeros and as soon as they do we also have dragons born after hundreds of years of no dragons.

It is a song of ice and fire. And where some have alluded to the ice and fire being symbolic of certain characters in the story, a much more literal interpretation would be that the ice and fire are symbolic of the war between the force behind the White Walkers and the allegiance of dragons and humanity.

There are only two gods. Rh'llor the Lord of Light and the Other.
I know this theory is chalk full of holes and I would welcome any criticism.

[sillent]

A couple of things:

If Drogon is truly the horse incarnate from the ritual, then based on actions made by the other dragons, can we infer which of the other sacrifices are present in the other two dragons?

If MMD was possibly doing a person-switch spell in the tent, trying to swap Drogo and the horse (which is why she didn't want any human in the tent with her) could Drogo and Rhaego have been swapped? Or Drogo and the horse?
If she indeed was doing a swap-souls kind of spell in the tent, who's to say she wasn't doing that at the pyre? Namely, MMD would be in a better position of power if she was actually Dany, and had dragons- as the horde would flock to Dany, but not necessarily to MMD. The spell itself could have been both a fire immunity + swap souls spell, and it may or may not have been botched. Dany only walks into the fire once MMD goes silent, which could mean:
1) MMD is dead -- could very well be possible, she botched her spell / couldn't finish it.. and the flames were too much and they killed her.
2) MMD is in one of the dragons -- if the horse is in Drogon, why can't she be in one of the others, its hard to control a dragon, but what if you ARE one.
3) MMD is in Dany -- if she was swapping Rhaego/horse with Drogo, and later possibly horse with Drogon, what's to say she wouldn't just swap or combine herself with Dany? When she has 'died' in the pyre (or swapped), Dany (or MMD?) decides to walk into the pyre.

I know it sounds a bit crackpot, but if were ready to accept soul swapping in the tent / with Drogon then I dont see why we cant extend that to Dany and MMD as well. It at the very least is a possibility.

[Zabuza]

Awesome analysis and post, glad I stumbled on it, unfortunatley I'm late to the party.

Sand Snake No. 9, on 07 May 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

Dany's formula for dragon hatching would seem to invalidate Melisandre's idea that king's blood is required, unless the already-dead Rhaego supplied the king's blood.  

Wasn't Drogo technically King of the Dothraki, or the most powerful Khal?

just an Other, on 07 May 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

I wonder if Jorah will ever tell us what he saw in the tent.

We may not need Jorah's perspective as Dany saw silhouettes before being taken into the tent.

Elaena Targaryen, on 13 May 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

"She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames."

I Don't think MMD can use magic at all. She can summon the spirits and they do the supernatural magic.

Stannis' new sigil is a stag wreathed in flames, and we are not introduced to Rh'llor till the 2nd book, on purpose so that we would not recognize him in the tent.

I think the FlameWreathedMan spirit is the spiritual embodiment of Rh'llor [(does this make the great wolf the great other? {possibly also making the stark children tools of the great other. but that is for another thread.} as there are only two gods...)]

MMD may not have been able to make anyone fireproof, but I think Rh'llor is capable of doing so. I think MMD was attempting to summon the same spirits (Rh'llor) from the tent.

This makes it so Dany isn't fireproof, MMD didn't botch her summoning and Rh'llor came, but the wrong person got the benefit (possibly if MMD was giving Dany her blood). And the miracle happened as Rh'llor doesn't do this often, if ever at all before.

EDIT: And it makes it so no humans are casting magic.

Edited by Zabuza, 23 July 2012 - 01:13 PM.

[Apple Martini]

Baelor Blackfyre, on 15 June 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

<snip>

If you stop to appreciate just how much of Dany's thought process in the Dothraki Sea after the fighting pit is based on memory, and also understand how fallible memory really is, you can square this — she's an unreliable narrator.

Think about it: She is trying to tell herself that the pit was another "fireproof moment" for her, despite having burn wounds and despite there being no burning or scorching on her clothing, evidence that she actually didn't come into bodily contact with fire. When she did touch fire (her hands), it burned her, and when she didn't touch fire (her clothes), it didn't burn her, not because she's immune to it, but because she didn't actually touch it.

[Pod The Impaler]

tze, on 06 May 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

I think one of the reasons the "Dany's fireproof!" theory keeps getting brought up despite all evidence to the contrary is because the exact nature of what happened to Dany (not the eggs, Dany herself) when she walked into the pyre hasn't really (from what I can see) been discussed. When I first read it I, like many others, assumed it meant Dany had some Targ-related fire immunity. But given what happens (and doesn't happen) in subsequent books, coupled with GRRM explicitly stating that Targs are not fireproof, on re-read that idea now strikes me as patently absurd. So if the point of the pyre wasn't to show Dany being fireproof, why did GRRM write it as he did? What's really happening to Dany on that pyre?

I think the key lies with Mirri Maz Duur, the only actual sorceress at that pyre. Dany is not a sorceress. She knows practically nothing about magic. She has not studied magic; none of her ancestors, from Aegon the Conqueror on down, are described as sorcerers (the exception, Bloodraven, seems to have gained his greenseer powers from the Blackwoods, not the Targs); and every other time she comes into contact with magic before and after that pyre, that magic has derived from somebody else (the Undying, Quaithe, etc.). Everything Dany "knows" about magic comes from a brief conversation with Mirri Maz Duur, her enemy, who claims to have studied magic for years (not . . . minutes, like Dany). We never see Dany "performing" any actual magic before or after that pyre, which is weird, given the way all the other magic-users' powers grow as the story progresses (the Starks pop to mind). So do we take our unreliable narrator's word for it and assume Dany survived that fire unscathed because she's "blood of the dragon"? I think an examination of the sequence of events leading up to Dany walking into the flames points in another direction.

Look at what actually happens on that pyre. Dany doesn't just light it up and immediately walk into the flames:



Interesting. The fire was very explicitly "too hot" for Daenerys Targaryen "to bear" when she lit it, so she "stepped backward", away from the fire. Immediately after Dany backs away from the fire, unable to bear the heat,

:

Mirri Maz Duur is a witch, with proven magical abilities. Compare what she's doing on the pyre with what she did in Drogo's tent:



When we saw Mirri use magic in Drogo's tent, she was very explicitly singing. On the pyre, she was singing as if her life depended on it, singing even as the fire swept over her.  And it's only after this, after Mirri sings, after the fire reaches Mirri and starts burning her, that Dany shows any resistance to the flames whatsoever:



How interesting. The fire that was "too hot to bear" before Mirri starts her singing, before Mirri starts to burn . . . suddenly stops being too hot for Dany and her "blood of the dragon" to bear only after Mirri Maz Duur, the witch who sings her spells, who we've seen using a type of magic (shadow magic) that at least one other sorceress (Melisandre) has associated with fire, sings a song and burns alive.

And it's only after Mirri falls silent (and presumably dies) that Dany starts walking into the flames without being harmed.

This is not a sequence of events that, in my eyes, points to anything about Dany being the magical key to her fire resistance on the pyre. We saw this entire sequence of events solely through Dany's eyes. She sees survivng the pyre unscathed as her crowning moment of glory, her great vindication, a testament to her blood. She notes MIrri's song and fiery death, but as if from a distance---she's far more concerned with sililoquizing at great length about the wonderful, beautiful flames and about how she totally knows more than Mirri, a woman who's actually studied and worked at magic. If we'd seen this event through Mirri's eyes, would our understanding of what was actually going on here alter? I suspect it would.

When stories are told about witches being burned, the question people always ask is "Well, if she was really a witch, why didn't she just cast a spell that made herself immune to the fire?" Logically, if you have magic powers and some crazy person is trying to burn you alive, you'd try to use those magic powers to protect yourself from the flames. I think this is exactly what Mirri was trying to do on that pyre. When the fire comes, she's singing as if her life depends on it----and perhaps the whole point is that it did.

Yet why did Mirri burn while Dany didn't? Mirri is desperately singing even as the flames reach her body, and Dany even notes that the agony from the flames seems to be affecting Mirri's song. Look at the sequence of events Dany describes: notice how it's only after the flames reach Mirri, and her song is altered by her agony, that Dany starts experiencing the first glimmers of heat/fire immunity. Did Mirri get to finish her spell before the flames reached her and killed her? Did the agony from the flames cause her to accidentally miscast her spell?

If we look at Dany's fire immunity on the pyre, not as Dany's crowning moment of glory, but as the result of a botched fire-immunity spell of Mirri's, then I think several things pop into place. Why Mirri, who'd made it clear she thought Dany was a naive child, appeared to be casting a spell that ended up benefitting Dany (like Dany's later victories in Slaver's Bay, Dany benefits here not because of her own competence, but because of her enemy's incompetence). Why Dany, who's never demonstrated any magical abilities before or since, whose family members frequently died in fires, whose family funeral ritual involved cremation, and whose plot trajectory frequently involves her benefiting from other people's mistakes, is portrayed in conjunction with the outwardly "successful" harnessing of wild magic forces that Dany frankly knows nothing about. It's been a major theme thus far that people who try to save themselves by destroying others inadvertently destroy themselves, and that those who use fire/blood magic are not inherently immune to its effects (look at what nearly happened to Melisandre when Rattleshirt was burned, look at the fate of Valyria). I see no reason why Mirri Maz Duur would be exempt from the same karmic reckoning.

And this idea---that Dany's single instance of fire immunity really derived from a botched spell cast by Mirri---also brings up a point I haven't really seen discussed: namely, why did Dany's hair burn off at all? Hair burns easier even than flesh, and this obviously wasn't a case where there simply wasn't enough heat present to ignite hair. At first I thought this could be an issue where the magic in the pyre only protected "living" tissue, but if that were true, Dany's nails should have burned off along with her hair, since nails are also dead tissue---yet there's no indication that happened. But if we look at Dany's fire immunity on the pyre, not as evidence of some magic inherent in inbred Targ blood, but as evidence of Mirri Maz Duur botching a spell by trying to make herself fireproof and accidentally making Dany only mostly fireproof, the fact that Dany's hair burned off can be explained as evidence that the spell itself wasn't working properly.

(As a side note, I've seen the idea floated that Mirri was actually trying to hatch those eggs, that she wanted Dany to do what she did, but I think that's unlikely. Mirri didn't quietly acquiese to Dany's plan, she tried to get Dany to untie her. Mirri's whole spiel to Dany was basically "You're a child, you have no idea what you're doing, you don't understand the consequences of your actions and you're playing with forces you don't understand." Given that Dany, by attributing the pyre to some special qualities of her own rather than to the actual sorceress she sees apparently casting a spell, and especially through pretty much all of her later actions in Slaver's Bay, seems have proven Mirri right on all accounts, I sincerely doubt Mirri wanted Dany of all people to have access to three fire-breathing death machines, let alone that Mirri would have willingly sacrificed herself so Dany could hatch those eggs.)

And thematically, I think Dany being "the Unburnt" on the pyre looks less like Dany being "rewarded" for being an inbred Targ and more like Mirri being "punished" for messing with forces even she didn't fully understand.

My take on it is that Dany is not fireproof - but worked a sort of instinctual magic, creating a ritual of fiery death and rebirth.
If Mirri had an effect on this, I think it was in her blood magic ritual - Dany was touched by death as much as touched by life. The fire in Dany's dragon blood was awakened, it responded by channeling death (the Khal, Mirri, her offering herself) into life (the dragons). She is no warlock of Qarth, nor a maegi - but despite any real magical edication, she clearly has the gift.

As well, you can look at the act itself - walking into a pyre yourself, risking death and daring fate - as part of her Targaryen madness, an awakening of that madness. They say genius and madness are twins - Dany's madness conceived this ritual, subconsciously and instinctually. She would not be the first Targ to play with fire and death to try and transform or awaken something with powerful magic. One drank wildfire. Summerhall burned. Aerys II wanted to create a giant pyre out of King's Landing, both out of spite and the notion he would become immortal.

Where they failed, Dany succeeded. If you notice, the moments where Dany is most successful and most powereful are when she has done things that seem to be fiery madness: She watches her brother burned to death by molten gold and says "he was no dragon; fire cannot kill a dragon" (where did that notion come from, exactly ?);  She put the maegi on the pyre with Drogo and herself, all because she sensed her dragons eggs would hatch; one simple utterance of "Dracarys" so in one stroke Unsullied are unchained, and Astapor's mighty were slaughtered and burned.

This is why Danaerys is dangerous. Her Targaryen heritage includes a madness that may be genius, and pyromania that may be instinctual magic. The coin may land on either side when flipped, but it is ultimately the same coin.

Edited by Pod The Impaler, 23 July 2012 - 01:29 PM.

[winterbird]

I have to read more and read it again, but I did like the idea of botched and unfinished magic and I am going to say considering her character it seems more likely to me that when she knows she is going to dye she uses her last breath to curse Dany.  (who has had no luck even with her Dragons).

The words Mirri Maz Duur spoke to Dany about her child/Drogo seem to be more of a curse to me than a prophecy though people treat it as such.  She could have been wishing for horror and death to be unleashed upon Dany... and enter dragons!  The spell might not have worked out as she anticipated, and the dragon hatching might not have been for an intentional benefit.  Dany ended up with beasts she couldn't control and the only thing they really gave her is a false sense of security.  I would say the spell however Mirri worded it ended up on Dany and the dragons and that is why for the one instant she was not burned.

When Melisadre prays to the her god she is said to do it once in the common tongue, once in high valeryan and once in the tongue of ashaai (a high undulating voice) which means what we really know is what language Mirri uses, we don't know what she says.  But it seems unlikely to me that she would try to help Dany or even to save herself from what she tells Dany about life.  It seems that magic that saw her through the pyre wouldn't keep her safe and hale.  That Dany survived with her dragons seems more to me a curse upon Dany and letting destruction into the world.  Yes it's fantasy we all went "She's got DRAGONS?!  YES!"  But remember, the dragons were killed before for a reason.  They were brutal beasts that couldn't truly be controlled and the ones they could control lead a sad life of captivity (remember the dragons in KL that were smaller than they should have been because of the pit?  sad for the dragons.)

There is also the matter of the other magic she did (which I can't access right now as my book is not with me) but she preformed magic a short time before that took the souls of a Khal and his son... in a sense "two kings father and son."  So it might be that the magic is calling back to that or the souls were bound to Mirri who is burned to hatch the dragons.  (Was that in their usual tent were the eggs nearby?  I will have to check on that).  The fact that the one act precedes the other might be what makes these dragons hatch.

The other factor could be linked to the return of the Other (though not that itself), but some global event that is bringing magic back into the world.  The PtWP is supposed to bring about the "ever ending summer" but what if it is a misreading on the part of the characters to a return of the normal seasons where winter would last for a few months and not for years?  Maybe the initial CotF spells (we established it was them right?) that screwed up the seasons are now at the end of their magical energy or are wearing off?  Maybe that bound magic for a time along with the Others or something?  It would be time timing that made Dany's dragons hatch.

There is more in the text and I am kicking myself for not having my text with me.  But we've been talking in the other threads.  Are we sure Dany is a hero?  Are we sure the dragons will bring about good?  Are we sure Dany is tPtWP or AA or anything really?  I need my first book back.

[Zabuza]

Pod The Impaler, on 23 July 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

The fire in Dany's dragon blood was awakened, it responded by channeling death (the Khal, Mirri, her offering herself) into life (the dragons). She is no warlock of Qarth, nor a maegi - but despite any real magical edication, she clearly has the gift.

This implies that her blood is naturally magical. I completely disagree and believe while she does have some heat resistance in her family line (Egg liked scalding bathes too.) I don't think her blood has any sort of mystic properties. Making her blood magical almost coincides with her being fireproof. So I can't buy it.

Pod The Impaler, on 23 July 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

Her Targaryen heritage includes a madness that may be genius.

I agree with this statement as
"There is a fine line between genius and insanity." - Oscar Levant
So she could very well be inherently mad.

Edited by Zabuza, 23 July 2012 - 02:26 PM.

[winterbird]

Could the difference this time be that she had just birth a baby herself?  AppleMartini mentioned something about maybe the missing factor the Targs didn't have was the female, what if it also had to do with the gestation/birth life/death process?

The strongest image in that whole scene to me was when the fire died and she was left giving suck to the dragons.  She was truly mother to dragons and not simply a bystander that hatched them.

[Zabuza]

I think we need to eliminate focused or planned magical acts from this theory, as magic is very misunderstood and unexplainable, paraphrasing GRRM. Here we are trying to explain a miracle by magical means through magical explanation. I can't agree with the magic rituals, as we are trying to explain something unexplainable.

If the people like MMD, Mel, and the starks are mediums through which the gods are able to use their devices. The ululating wailing is only to bring them around. What they do once summoned is completely up to them and not upto the summoner.

Edited by Zabuza, 23 July 2012 - 02:37 PM.

[Lord of Insignificance]

The dead horse on the pyre was for beating...in forums

All seriousness aside though,  Perhaps the spell served as a continuation of the spell done at summerhall. Perhaps MMD's spell (which she may have learned from Mawryn) happened to contain the rest of the steps.
Step one: Kill some targs
Step two : Add salt
Step three: Throw a horse in there so we can relate it to R+L= Hodor