184 replies to this topic

[Bran Vras]

tze, on 08 May 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

For that to happen, though, Mirri would have to have known what Dany was dreaming---presumably, she'd have to have been the person implanting the fever dreams in the first place. It seems that Dany's handmaidens and Jorah were with her when she was "ill"---you'd think they'd have mentioned that the witch who'd just done something unnatural to Khal Drogo had also been doing something weird to Dany, given that we haven't seen or heard mention of any particular drink being able to grant a specific dream. And these were really specific dreams, filled with personal knowledge that Mirri wouldn't have had access to. And unlike Bran's dream of the three-eyed crow, Mirri herself doesn't seem present, in any form, in this particular dream, so it seems unlikely to me that she was able to manipulate Dany to that extent.

Just to defend my notion that Mirri manipulated Dany's dreams. The Undying did not know personal details of Dany's life either, nevertheless Dany dreamt of the red door of her childhood after drinking the shade of the evening. The manipulation could work at a more abstract level that the specific personal history of the subject. (Like in psychoanalysis the transfer effect works regardless of the personal details brought up by the subject, if you are willing to accept the analogy. If you are not, don't bother.). In any case, Mirri could see that her magic was working, when she saw Dany craving the eggs on the carpet. However, there is a sign that Dany had been given something else before the dreams:

Quote

She woke to the taste of ashes.

So Mirri might have engineered a whole process, with the appropriate ingredients at various stages (and there is a third ingredient below). I don't claim to understand how that magic works. I am just saying that it is strongly hinted Mirri was acting, and using her skills as sorcerer, while Dany was sleeping.  

More precisely, there has been three stages:

1) Fever dreams, with an obsession with "waking the dragon", then Mirri provides the bitter beverage when Dany awakens.
2) Long serene dream, and Mirri is there again at awakening to give the dragon egg that Dany asks, and

Quote

When Jhiqui returned with more water, Mirri Maz Duur came with her, eyes heavy from sleep. “Drink,” she said, lifting Dany’s head to the cup once more, but this time it was only wine. Sweet, sweet wine. Dany drank, and lay back, listening to the soft sound of her own breathing.

In any case, it against common sense to give wine rather than water to a recovering person. (And GRRM points that for us, by mentioning Jhiqui and her water.) And, yes, wine is used in sorcery.

3) Sleep without consciousness.

(It sounds like indian metaphysics, yoga etc, each stage reaching deeper within the subject) It seems that what Dany has gone through there is not ordinary, and she has been affected, perhaps transformed, in a way that she doesn't understand under Mirri's watch. The visible result is that Dany is persuaded that she needs to burn in the pyre. And there is no other explanation than Mirri.

There is this suggestive passage when Mirri is taken to the pyre

Quote

Dany called out for the men of her khas and bid them take Mirri Maz Duur and bind her hand and foot, but the maegi smiled at her as they carried her off, as if they shared a secret.

So Mirri shows no lack of confidence. It wouldn't be different if she had planned it all along.

(For the sake of keeping the discussion focused, I have refrained from mentioning Mormont's attitude and the motherly feelings of Dany redirected toward the dragon egg.)

tze, on 08 May 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

I think it could go either way. Mirri could have been trying to poison her, drug her, etc.

The botched poisoning hypothesis is not reasonable (you seem insistent on making Mirri screw up, aren't you?). Given the situation, that would be akin to missing an elephant with a crossbow. That Mirri gave a potion for quiet sleep is more believable. But, in any case why would she bother about Dany at all, if she didn't want something from her?

tze, on 08 May 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

I don't think Mirri was executing some great plan to give Dany of all people the ultimate destructive weapon.

You are making a shortcut here. Visibly Mirri Maz Durr is an extraordinary character, who has traveled far and wide, an expert in various sorceries. She knows probably more than we do, even perhaps about dragons through her good friend Marwyn. And she might not have even have told her full story. So it's not possible to presume what she has planned is such a simplistic way (destructive power etc). Entirely different things might be at play. I have suggested a curse upthread for example (I admit I don't really know).

tze, on 08 May 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

But as I've said upthread, I sincerely doubt that Mirri's ultimate goal was to burn alive (a hideous death) in a way that permitted Dany's destructive powers to be monumentally increased.

The more I think about it, the less I like that Mirri launched a spell just to spare herself the pain of fire and that, by miracle, Dany's life was saved. Only my opinion, of course.



Edit: In fact there is a simple reason why Mirri could want the dragons to come, even as destructive power: revenge. She has seen her town destroyed by the Dothraki and there is no reason for the Dothraki not to come back. After she woke from her three staged sleep, Dany pronounces a curiously solemn vow:

Quote

“It was a cruel fate,” Dany said, “yet not so cruel as Mago’s will be. I promise you that, by the old gods and the new, by the lamb god and the horse god and every god that lives. I swear it by the Mother of Mountains and the Womb of the World. Before I am done with them, Mago and Ko Jhaqo will plead for the mercy they showed Eroeh.”

As if the oath was part of a deal that was concluded unconsciously while Dany was asleep. (However, the Eroeh story might need more digging.)

Edited by Bran Vras, 09 May 2012 - 07:00 AM.

[tze]

Bran Vras, on 09 May 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

Just to defend my notion that Mirri manipulated Dany's dreams. The Undying did not know personal details of Dany's life either, nevertheless Dany dreamt of the red door of her childhood after drinking the shade of the evening. The manipulation could work at a more abstract level that the specific personal history of the subject. (Like in psychoanalysis the transfer effect works regardless of the personal details brought up by the subject, if you are willing to accept the analogy. If you are not, don't bother.). In any case, Mirri could see that her magic was working, when she saw Dany craving the eggs on the carpet.

The circumstances surrounding Dany/the Undying were vastly different than the circumstances surrounding Dany/Mirri, though. Dany wasn't just given a drink there, she was led into the House of the Undying itself, a place that appeared to be actively controlled by the Undying (there are special rules of conduct, for example, and the Undying seemed to know exactly what Dany saw in the rooms leading up to their chamber). Dany (like Bran with Bloodraven) actually saw the Undying themselves (though disguised) in one of the visions she had in the House. Mirri, by contrast, does not pop up (in any sense that I can see) in any of Dany's visions, and Dany is not in a place of power central to (or unilaterally controlled by) Mirri.

As to the issue of whether or not she was just giving Dany subliminal hints, that's possible (though that would mean Irri/Jhiqui/Mormont didn't notice Mirri's attempts, which strikes me as odd). And if the drink was inherently meant to bring up Dany's subliminal desires, that would mean Mirri would have had to know Dany's subliminal dragon-related desires. I suppose, if she'd met Marwyn (presumably when the Targs were still reigning, an issue that might have been discussed between them), she might know a bit of Dany's family's historical obsession with hatching dragons . . . I don't know, it seems like a stretch to me.

Honestly, at best I can see Mirri trying to nudge Dany into destroying herself (getting her to, for example, stick the eggs on the fire, walk into the fire, Dany dies screaming, etc.). But I can't see what actually happened on the pyre---Mirri dying, eggs hatching, Dany surviving unscathed---being Mirri's actual end goal, for reasons I've already gone into.

Bran Vras, on 09 May 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

But, in any case why would she bother about Dany at all, if she didn't want something from her?

I think she clearly does want something from Dany. She wants Dany to know exactly what happened to her son, she wants Dany to see exactly what's been done to her beloved Khal Drogo. She wants Dany to suffer as Mirri has suffered, and if Dany just dies before finding out how she's screwed herself over (or is too feverish to understand what's going on around her), then Dany will never understand her own culpability in what happened to Rhaego and Drogo. And the whole point seems to be, not just destroying Rhaego, not just crippling Drogo, but making sure Dany herself suffers as well.

Bran Vras, on 09 May 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

You are making a shortcut here. Visibly Mirri Maz Durr is an extraordinary character, who has traveled far and wide, an expert in various sorceries. She knows probably more than we do, even perhaps about dragons through her good friend Marwyn. And she might not have even have told her full story. So it's not possible to presume what she has planned is such a simplistic way (destructive power etc). Entirely different things might be at play. I have suggested a curse upthread for example (I admit I don't really know).

Mirri is an extraordinary character, but the whole point is that being "an expert in various sorceries" is kind of oxymoronic. These are wild forces that humans, especially humans from human-centric Essosi cultures (as compared to, say, the First Men of Westeros, who are associated with multiple magical non-human species of human-level intelligence) can never fully control, and I see no reason why we should look at a human being who's old and wise and assume they're infallible, especially when it comes to magic.

And what exactly could Mirri "know" about dragons that would lead her to wanting them to be reborn? Mirri's whole schtick was protecting the innocent, and Dany's dragons tend to eat the innocent. (And given the dragon-related devastation Tyrion sees as he treks through Essos, I think a maegi, especially one from the Lamb Men of Essos, would have to have associated dragons with destruction). The idea of her basically "cursing" Dany with dragons as a double-edged sword is an interesting one, but doing that would mean Mirri was willing to basically allow untold future innocents to die by dragon as collateral damage, just so she could have an even more drawn-out and meticulous form of revenge against Dany, even though she'd already executed a pretty cruel and meticulous form of revenge against Dany (does she really gain enough to make the cost worth it? The fates of Rhaego and Drogo were pretty cleanly targeted, and loosing dragons appears to be the opposite of "cleanly targeted".)  I'm not convinced that someone whose whole beef with the Dothraki is the way they destroy everything in their path, would consider dying in order to give a Khaleesi the ability to destroy everything in her path (or even just resurrecting creatures who destroy everything in their path regardless of their "owner's" wishes) to be in line with her goals.

Bran Vras, on 09 May 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

The more I think about it, the less I like that Mirri launched a spell just to spare herself the pain of fire and that, by miracle, Dany's life was saved. Only my opinion, of course.

Or she launched a spell to protect herself from burning because no burning Mirri = no baby dragons for the Khaleesi. I think the idea that, by trying to stop something, she ends up inadvertently making it come to pass, is an idea with strong precedent in this story.

Bran Vras, on 09 May 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

Edit: In fact there is a simple reason why Mirri could want the dragons to come, even as destructive power: revenge. She has seen her town destroyed by the Dothraki and there is no reason for the Dothraki not to come back.

There's a pretty huge problem with that, though. Look at what Mirri calls Dany, even after she wakes: Khaleesi. Look at who Dany orders to whip Mirri: Dothraki. Look at who's surrounding Dany, serving Dany: Dothraki. Dany hates these new khals, but from Mirri's POV, Dany isn't a force separate from the Dothraki, she is Dothraki. Giving Dany dragons might lead to those khals' deaths, but it would basically be giving that power to a brand-new khal (Dany), which is rather counterproductive if the point is to stop the Dothraki from destroying innocent people. And given that her whole spiel to Dany was basically "you think you're helping people but you're really hurting them", and given what we know happens later (Dany tries to help people and ends up hurting them), I see no reason why Mirri would look at Dany the Khaleesi and seek to increase her destructive capabilities, especially given that Mirri basically told Dany she had terrible judgment.

[Apple Martini]

Budj, on 08 May 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

It catches on fire in the pits....I'm pretty sure she was bandaging burn wounds when she was in the Dothraki sea though....so....

Yes, at the very beginning of her last chapter, she notes that her burns are healing, but they're still cracked and oozing whitish pus. And she says that they don't look as bad as they had earlier. So it's not like she immediately walked out of the pit with only pus-oozing hands. The pus-oozing hands are the healing hands, and you can infer that whatever burns she did sustain were worse than that.

[Bran Vras]

tze, on 09 May 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

Or she launched a spell to protect herself from burning because no burning Mirri = no baby dragons for the Khaleesi. I think the idea that, by trying to stop something, she ends up inadvertently making it come to pass, is an idea with strong precedent in this story.

I won't insist on refuting your "botched magic" suggestion, which I think it can't be salvaged (no offense, honest opinion). It would not be a very interesting discussion, unless you bring something new.

What is interesting and needs to be explained is: why did Dany have the sudden inspiration to make a pyre for the dragons where she would jump? Note that the inspiration came when she woke up and it came with the certainty of surviving the fire against all verisemblance. So it is the result of the three-stage sleep, or, perhaps, of the ceremony in the tent.

The only explanation available is Mirri's magic, and it's hard to deny that Mirri is suspect of doing something to Dany with her potions. But it's unclear whether Mirri is implanting the suggestion or leaving that to some dark power, in the continuation of the ceremony in the tent.

I have tried to analyse upthread what happened during Dany's sleep. I am disappointed no comment came on what I thought was my most interesting point. The distinction you made from the House of the Undying appears arbitrary to me. At least what concerns the power of building itself. The presence of the warlocks within the dream might be significant, but that remain to be established. But that might not be important, because there is another comparison of interest, that I can't resist mentioning.

It's Jaime Lannister after having left Brienne in Harrenhal. Recall that Qyburn has treated Jaime's amputation. (Jaime, ASoS)

Quote

Qyburn had brought a skin of dreamwine, thankfully. While Walton set the watches, Jaime stretched out near the fire and propped a rolled-up bearskin against a stump as a pillow for his head. The wench would have told him he had to eat before he slept, to keep his strength up, but he was more tired than hungry. He closed his eyes, and hoped to dream of Cersei. The fever dreams were all so vivid . . .

Then a series of fever dreams follows, very much like what Dany has experienced. When Jaime wakes up, Qyburn is there. After a short conversation Jaime decides suddenly to go to Harrenhal, where he jumps into the bear pit to save Brienne.

It's a striking resemblance, isn't it? Of course, the common point between Mirri and Qyburn is their good friend Marwyn. (I believe that there is more between Jaime and Brienne than spontaneous friendship. Qyburn had prepared exotic beverages for Jaime in Harrenhal, and paid much attention to his relation to Brienne. A fascinating subject, on which I have a few things to say, but off topic for this thread.)

About dreamwine, it seems to be a painkiller and appears from time to time in the books. In particular, in ADwD, at Dany's marriage

Quote

Wine flowed—not the thin pale stuff of Slaver’s Bay but rich sweet vintages from the Arbor and dreamwine from Qarth, flavored with strange spices.

I am not sure that what Dany drinks is dreamwine, but the idea is there of the magical nature of the wine. (And apparently, no "sweet, sweet wine" is produced by the Lamb Men, so Mirri's wine is likely to be exotic and to come from Mirri's chest, which is noted for having followed her all along.)

tze, on 09 May 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

I think she clearly does want something from Dany. She wants Dany to know exactly what happened to her son, she wants Dany to see exactly what's been done to her beloved Khal Drogo. She wants Dany to suffer as Mirri has suffered, and if Dany just dies before finding out how she's screwed herself over (or is too feverish to understand what's going on around her), then Dany will never understand her own culpability in what happened to Rhaego and Drogo. And the whole point seems to be, not just destroying Rhaego, not just crippling Drogo, but making sure Dany herself suffers as well.

Concerning Mirri's motivation, I see no personal revenge against Dany. Why would there be one? Dany is not personally responsible for the sack of the Lamb men's town, and her actions have not made anything worse there. Mirri might not particularly appreciate whatever good Dany attempted to do, but she does not appear to hate the Khaleesi either.

Mirri might have cursed Dany's child as a revenge against the Dothraki, though. And she says so.

Quote

“You cheated me. You murdered my child within me.”
“The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now. His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust, “

Even if Rhaego was only the khal's son, and not destined to be Stallion that mounts the world, it's exemplary enough a retalliation to offer the baby to the demons. However, the Dothraki hardly care about a revenge against Dany.

Whether Mirri has control over what happens in the pyre is unclear to me. She objects to what Dany is doing, while Dany thinks she has outsmarted her. There might have been an agreement between Dany and Mirri, but Dany appears to change the terms while preparing the pyre. If the agreement was that Dany would take revenge on the Dothraki with her dragons,  I would like to see more evidence for the solemn oath than that. (To answer tze's criticism, there is the interesting notion, I think mentioned upthread by Servumal, that there was no khalasar at all when dragons ruled the world.)

Edited by Bran Vras, 09 May 2012 - 04:23 PM.

[tze]

Bran Vras, on 09 May 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

I won't insist on refuting your "botched magic" suggestion, which I think it can't be salvaged (no offense, honest opinion). It would not be a very interesting discussion, unless you bring something new.

I'm really interested in why you think the idea that magic doesn't always work like the magic-user intends to be such an outlandish idea? I'm not being snarky here---I'm genuinely curious. To me, the notion of someone in extremis, who's messing with a form of magic that everyone calls the most dangerous kind possible---if anything, I find the idea that putting that person in mortal agony while she's working her magic somehow doesn't lead to her losing control of the wild magic she's trying to harness and effecting a different result than the one she intended . . . that I find odd. If blood magic always works exactly the way its user intends, then where's the danger in it? If the precise forms and rituals a magic-user uses don't actually affect that person's magical control, why would they insist on performing those rituals in the first place?

Bran Vras, on 09 May 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

What is interesting and needs to be explained is: why did Dany have the sudden inspiration to make a pyre for the dragons where she would jump? Note that the inspiration came when she woke up and it came with the certainty of surviving the fire against all verisemblance. So it is the result of the three-stage sleep, or, perhaps, of the ceremony in the tent.

The idea of the pyre itself isn't out of the ordinary (according to Dany, all khals have funeral pyres). The idea for hatching the eggs appeared to come from a combination of the dreams and from what Mirri told Dany right before the blood magic in the tent. Dany's been sort of obsessing over those eggs for a while---the notion that she'd call for them upon waking from a dream involving dragons isn't inherently odd, in my eyes.

And actually, it doesn't seem like Dany's original plan was to walk into that fire: Jorah assumes it is, but then again, presumably Jorah has more historical knowledge of Dany's self-immolating ancestors than Dany herself. But during the pyre, Dany thinks,

Quote

Part of her wanted to go to him as Ser Jorah had feared, to rush into the flames to beg for his forgiveness and take him inside her one last time, the fire melting the flesh from their bones until they were as one, forever.

To me, that doesn't sound like Dany was originally intending to walk into the flames at all, let alone that she thought she could do so without being burned.

Bran Vras, on 09 May 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

I have tried to analyse upthread what happened during Dany's sleep. I am disappointed no comment came on what I thought was my most interesting point.

What did you think was your most interesting point?

Bran Vras, on 09 May 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

The distinction you made from the House of the Undying appears arbitrary to me. At least what concerns the power of building itself. The presence of the warlocks within the dream might be significant, but that remain to be established.

I don't think this distinction is arbitrary at all. For me, it goes toward the issue of control: at the HOTU, the warlocks were in full control of the location (and had utilized it, presumably, in similar ways many other times) and their presence in Dany's vision demonstrated a link between them and that vision (even if they weren't physically controlling those visions, their presence indicates at least a modicum of awareness of the form and shape of those visions). The Mirri situation contains none of those elements, and that's why I have difficulty imagining that she was exercising some measure of control over Dany's fever dreams (or that she was aware enough of the content of those dreams to allow her to serve as a manipulative force vis a vis them).

Bran Vras, on 09 May 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Then a series of fever dreams follows, very much like what Dany has experienced. When Jaime wakes up, Qyburn is there. After a short conversation Jaime decides suddenly to go to Harrenhal, where he jumps into the bear pit to save Brienne.

It's a striking resemblance, isn't it? Of course, the common point between Mirri and Qyburn is their good friend Marwyn. (I believe that there is more between Jaime and Brienne than spontaneous friendship. Qyburn had prepared exotic beverages for Jaime in Harrenhal, and paid much attention to his relation to Brienne.

Two things: first, I think we can agree that the thick, bitter drink Mirri gave Dany could not have been dreamwine, given that it led to dreamless sleep. If Mirri gave Dany something to drink before that that caused those dreams, it could not have logically been the same substance that later led to dreamless sleep. Second, if Mirri gave Dany dreamwine in the "blackout" period between when Jorah carries her into the tent and when she awakes tasting ashes, that could explain the dreams---but that still doesn't mean that Mirri herself in any way facilitated or controlled those dreams themselves. There's an extra step missing here (between the giving of a drink and the formation of the dreams themselves), and I don't see how Dany (who presumably wasn't just shoved in a corner all by her lonesome, and whom I can't see Jorah/Irri/Jhiqui leaving alone with Mirri Maz Duur) was in a position to have been manipulated like that without someone mentioning something about what the witch was doing to her when she was helpless.

I agree with you on the notion of parallels between Dany/Jaime, but I'm not sure that I agree that Mirri/Qyburn are necessarily to blame. Both Jaime and Dany had lost something precious, a literal part of themselves (the baby Dany was carrying and Jaime's hand). They'd suffered physical and emotional trauma, and that's enough to cause these kinds of dreams in anyone. I agree with the possibility that a drink caused those dreams, I'm just not sure I agree that the drink could have shaped the form of those dreams, especially with regards to Dany.

Bran Vras, on 09 May 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Concerning Mirri's motivation, I see no personal revenge against Dany. Why would there be one? Dany is not personnaly responsible for the sack of the Lamb men's town, and her actions have not made anything worse there. Mirri might not particularly appreciate whatever good Dany attempted to do, but she does not appear to hate the Khaleesi either.

Dany is Drogo's Khaleesi, and everything she had, she got either from or because of Drogo. (Even those eggs were only given to her at her marriage, never before). And everything Drogo had, he got from pillaging. Dany pretty clearly expected that she could benefit financially from the destruction of everything Mirri loved and have Mirri be grateful that she only got raped three times instead of four. If I were Mirri, I'd be pissed as hell at Dany. Dany'd set herself up as a representative of, not a force opposed to, the riders that burned everything Mirri loved. And Dany made no attempts to stop the destruction before it started, so in the grand scheme of things, why would Mirri be at all pro-Dany? Not to mention, Dany jumped at the idea of messing around with blood magic, all to keep the guy who led the assault on the Lamb Men alive and powerful. From everything Mirri's seen, Dany very much wants to perpetuate and benefit from the group that destroyed Mirri's home. Ordinary Dothraki attack each other's khalasars, so swearing vengeance against the new khals doesn't even set Dany apart from other Dothraki. And when Dany makes her speech, she speaks of building a new khalasar. The people in that khalasar are no longer slaves, but they're all Dothraki and they're all willing to form a new group that doesn't seem likely to just sit and build a quiet village by a lake somewhere.

Bran Vras, on 09 May 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Mirri might have cursed Dany's child as a revenge against the Dothraki, though. And she says so.

She specifically claims Rhaego had to die to stop him from becoming the Uber-Dothraki pillager, though. It wasn't just about revenge (although that was a strong element). When Dany accuses Mirri of murdering Rhaego, Mirri's response is Rhaego-centric: "The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now. His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust."

Bran Vras, on 09 May 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Whether Mirri has control over what happens in the pyre is unclear to me. She objects to what Dany is doing, while Dany thinks she has outsmarted her. There might have been an agreement between Dany and Mirri, but Dany appears to change the terms while preparing the pyre. If the agreement was that Dany would take revenge on the Dothraki with her dragons,  I would like to see more evidence for the solemn oath than that. (To answer tze's criticism, there is the interesting notion, I think mentioned upthread by Servumal, that there was no khalasar at all when dragons ruled the world.)

My criticism actually lies in the very notion that there was any agreement whatsoever between Dany and Mirri, not the idea that dragons and Dothraki somehow can't coexist (even if the latter only came into existence at the Doom, which I agree is an interesting theory). This is not a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" situation. Dany and Mogo may be enemies, and Mogo and Mirri may be enemies, but that doesn't mean Dany and Mirri are assumed to be friends. In a greater sense, supporting one khalasar over another seems counterproductive for one of the Lamb Men.

Edited by tze, 09 May 2012 - 05:23 PM.

[Miriamele]

There was a Rhaego is alive thread once. I know three deaths, three dragons, but still... Dany never saw the child dead, she was told he was deformed and dead. Maybe Mirri's comment meant he would become something else not a stallion that mounts the world.

[GreenHand]

tze, I like your sequential analysis of the text. I think a lot of topics/threads on this forum would benefit from precise sequential analyses.


The Magick of what one eats (and does around it before):

Bran Vras, I do find your point of the pre-pyre, ingestion, fevre dream events intriguing. I'm not sure what exactly to conclude. But I will agree with the Bran Vras-tze exchanges in that something was happening. The knowing smugness of Mirri suggests just before the pyre suggests an agenda. I suspect that Ser Jorah Mormont would not allow Mirri to leave even as everything was falling apart and the Khalasar dispersing. She was his last hope for saving his queen.

If I may take a potentially fruitful shot in the dark:
Bran Stark is told that the bitter something he ingests is the paste of weirwood acorns in order to warg a weirwood (create/enhance a connection). There is plenty of instances of cannabalism in ASOIAF, but is there any hints of cannabalism having any special effects? We know that weirwoods were given blood sacrifices and Bran tastes the blood ("cannabalism")when he witnesses this in his vision. One might presume that Skagos where the Old Tongue is spoken also practices the Old Ways along with or including Cannabalism. Perhaps this is significant. Would it be significant if Mirri mixed blood into the concoctions she gave Dany? Drogo's blood? Rhaego's blood? Her own blood? the blood of the horse used in the tent ritual?

And why...? Perhaps: To forge a connection? for a blood-magick spell she suspects & wishes to prevent or is considering attempting herself. We know she did magick using Drogo and the baby Rhaego in the tent, ostensibly to save Khal Drogo (and/or the baby and/or Dany at Jorah's subsequent request). But we know that she was actively against saving the former two. And I found the effect on Drogo after all that to be... weak, anti-climatic at best. So with all that shadow dancing and blood-spilling fanfare what was that spell really for and about? Do we see some of its effect in Dany's pre-pyre ingestions and dreams and possible transformations? or in the Pyre. Perhaps the magical influence on the Pyre doesn't just stem from what happened AT the pyre but before hand as well.

On possible GRRM Meta-narrative hint:

I was curious to see the exact phrase "fevre dream" in the three text quotes provided upthread. It is also the title of GRRM's venture into the Vampire mythos. With vampires we have resonant ideas of raising/summoning/binding the dead, life for life: draining life to live forever in youth, blood-magic, consuming blood (cannabalism, they were once human?), etc... I haven't read 'Fevre Dream' myself but if someone else has, please comment if you think there is anything of pertinence here. Sometimes GRRM develops ideas for ASOIAF outside of ASOIAF. for example, while 'The Ice Dragon' is not ASOIAF canon, I think one can see therein ideas from/for ASOIAF in genesis/development within GRRM.

-------

Bran Vras, on 09 May 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

I am disappointed no comment came on what I thought was my most interesting point.

I too have often been disappointed by a topic or comment going undiscussed. What gathers attention on a thread is often anti-intuitive. Oh well.

Bran Vras, on 09 May 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

(I believe that there is more between Jaime and Brienne than spontaneous friendship. Qyburn had prepared exotic beverages for Jaime in Harrenhal, and paid much attention to his relation to Brienne. A fascinating subject, on which I have a few things to say, but off topic for this thread.)

Yes, go for it. Make a thread and elaborate.

Edited by GreenHand, 10 May 2012 - 12:00 PM.

[GreenHand]

On Targaryen Pyres:

Many presume that, because the dragon-hatching is blood-magic as noted by Mirri Maz Duur, a key component in the process (whether Dany's inadvertant ritual or Mirri's spell or cosmic confluence) was the burning of Khal Drogo. But Khal Drogo did not die in the fire, he was smother a short time earlier in his bed (by Dany admittedly).

The Targaryens also burn their dead on pyres. Perhaps in times past, when dragons were routine/regularly (not frequently) hatched, this was part of a ritual to hatch a dragon. Perhaps a dragon hatched for everyone of their own (recently but already dead) they gave to the flames. So every time a Targaryen died a new dragon was born. If it were so, I could understand how this might look like the deceased Targaryen had actually "reincarnated" into the dragon or even transformed into a dragon. In earlier generations this may have been the fate of every Targaryen. Perhaps this is the origin of the strong family meme that Targaryens ARE dragons and BECOME dragons. (Even though the younger scions after the War of Conquest have forgotten the context).


Addendum:
Upthread I have suggested that the parallel of Mirri's Pyre singing parallels her singing in the tent suggests a two-phase "spell" akin to the Shadowbinding would have learned in Asshai and that Melisandre practices. In the tent Mirri claims to wake not only powers ancient and dark (ie Melisandre-esque shadows?) but specifically the dead: I further suggest that the hatching of dragons, also referred to as waking dragons from stone, required not only the giving of life or kingsblood through death but the binding of their shadow/shade/soul into the dragon. Thus the Dragon is in a sense consuming the soul, or "reembodying" the soul of the deceased.
Implication: This may mean that Targaryens used in Dragon hatching rituals do not only symbolically become dragons but whatever remains of them after death actually does become or enter a dragon. This is admittedly somewhat speculative, but this has implications for Mirri's prophecy regarding Drogo. Many people tried to tie the prophecy to the fate of Drogon as an "incarnation" Drogo.

[GreenHand]

On Why Mirri may have wanted the Dragons to return:

Mirri:
Mirri's true intentions are interesting and certain not clear.

What is Mirri, she is a healer/midwife, she is a Lhazareen, she is a godswife, but she is also a maegi/mage valuing the use of magick. She values magick which she has learned can do good as well as ill.

All the others learned and experienced in magick are very positively interested in the return of the dragons to the world (and with it stronger magick), if not in fact pleased and excited.

Given that Dragons are creatures of war and destruction I think they are very dangerous and it is quite possible, if not likely, that Mirri Maz Duur wants nothing to do with them and never a dragon to enter the world. And thus opposes their birth in some way.

...
Dragons and Magick:
BUT, I think it is also possible that she sees them in as part of the magical ecology of the world just as the other characters of magick ken do. And thus would like to see them enter the world and is willing to die since she has lost everything. The return of magick to the world is a wonderous thing for those who use it. And it can be used for great good. She has used it presumably to cure the innumerable patients she tells Daenerys about (that was important to her). It is perhaps what her and her brethren (those that practice magick in its many forms) have so long awaited.

However, for this to happen they need only enter the world.

Dragons and Humans:
The truly devastating destruction happens when dragons are controlled by people. Wild dragons only hunt for food, rather than go on systematic, focused city sacking/burning. They are happy to eat animals rather than humans when it's available (see Rhaegal and Viserion in Meereen. Drogon eats the lone pig in a fighting pit surrounded by swathes of human meat). The occasional human death is like that of any predator in the wild.

Dragons & the Dothraki:
Upthread it was noted that there was not a powerful Dothraki presence before the Valyrian Doom.
The Doom did not just wipe out the Valyrians but also the Dragons, wild and tamed. Before the Valyrians the Dragons had long existed without causing wide-scale devastation for the peoples of the region. When Drogon heads out on his own he chooses a roost out in the wild and hunts over a large and distributed territory. And in particular seems like eating... that's right, horse flesh. And horses are creatures of (and adapted to) the open plains. I think dragons may have prevented a roaming khalasar lifestyle for the Dothraki, keeping them in near Vaes Dothrak away from Valyria and its dragons. The dragons may have been fierce but they protected their disappearance opened the way for the Dothraki who were more of a threat to the Lhazareen.

So dragons more of a vengeance on the Dothraki, by extension protect her Lhazareen.

---

How does this play out at the Pyre:
The Dothraki are a superstitious people. Mirri Maz Duur has long hated them and probably knows of their quirks. If it were left up to the Dothraki left behind, in all likelihood the dragons would have been left alone (surviving in the wild on their own hunting rats etc). Only Mirri Maz Duur, Daenerys and perhaps Jorah would have seized on the opportunity to raise dragons. If Dany had perished in the Pyre (being instead the sacrifice) this would have been perfect, whether Mirri Maz Duur survived (even better) or not. Perhaps the dragons would not have been so co-operative and tamable/trainable for one who they had not imprinted on as their mother in the fire. So we might whether Jorah Mormont would have or would have been able to claim, tame and keep these dragons.

But Wild Dragons serve the purposes of global magick without serving any potentially tyrannical human agent.

Edited by GreenHand, 10 May 2012 - 11:56 AM.

[Apple Martini]

The thing that always baffled me about the Targaryens hatching eggs was, "Did they not know how they hatched before? And if so, did they forget? How do you forget something like that?"

It stands to reason that before the dragons died, they would've hatched their own eggs. The problem then when the last dragon died out was, there were no more dragons left to hatch them. Yet that didn't stop the Targs from trying (and failing). So were these attempts just last-ditch efforts and shots in the dark? Or were they actually based on "real" hatching methods, it's just that the attempts didn't work?

The deaths of the last dragons roughly corresponded to the end of the Dance of the Dragons, which itself ushered in a strong, strong dynastic and social disregard for Targaryen women. Aegon III's daughters were locked in a vault, Naerys was humilitated and treated like an afterthought, Aelinor died a maid, etc. What if the key to hatching dragons, the key that was lost when they died, has always been female influence or participation? And in that sense, MMD's role in this isn't necessarily diminished, nor is Dany's necessarily strengthened.

[Feather Crystal]

Didn't Daenerys say that one of her dreams told her how it could be done? This was a complete magical recipe. The three lives and the fire hatched the eggs and Mirri's singing enabled Dany to walk into the fire unburned.

[Apple Martini]

Melisandra, on 10 May 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

Didn't Daenerys say that one of her dreams told her how it could be done? This was a complete magical recipe. The three lives and the fire hatched the eggs and Mirri's singing enabled Dany to walk into the fire unburned.

Are you confusing the show for the book? Dany may have said something like that in her bratty temper tantrum to the Spice King last week, but if it's in the books, I don't remember it.

[Feather Crystal]

Apple Martini, on 10 May 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

Are you confusing the show for the book? Dany may have said something like that in her bratty temper tantrum to the Spice King last week, but if it's in the books, I don't remember it.

It is quite possible as I am a fan of the show as well! But, my main understanding would remain the same. I think Daenerys withstood the pyre because it was a magical, one time deal. Unless, of course, she were to come up with another "recipe".

[Elaena Targaryen]

GreenHand, on 10 May 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

On possible GRRM Meta-narrative hint:

I was curious to see the exact phrase "fevre dream" in the three text quotes provided upthread. It is also the title of GRRM's venture into the Vampire mythos. With vampires we have resonant ideas of raising/summoning/binding the dead, life for life: draining life to live forever in youth, blood-magic, consuming blood (cannabalism, they were once human?), etc... I haven't read 'Fevre Dream' myself but if someone else has, please comment if you think there is anything of pertinence here. Sometimes GRRM develops ideas for ASOIAF outside of ASOIAF. for example, while 'The Ice Dragon' is not ASOIAF canon, I think one can see therein ideas from/for ASOIAF in genesis/development within GRRM.

I have read and love Fever Dream! Martin did a reinvention on vampires that was amazing! I do not see a parallel here but I can see the possibility of that in a different part of the story.

[Miriamele]

Elaena Targaryen, on 10 May 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

I have read and love Fever Dream! Martin did a reinvention on vampires that was amazing! I do not see a parallel here but I can see the possibility of that in a different part of the story.

Not with this particular episode but the main character's story has some parallels with the Stark kids and Dany.

[Bran Vras]

I have thought a bit more about what happened between Mirri and Dany. It seems to converge on the following scenario.

Why did Dany succeed to hatch the dragons while all Targaryens had been failing for one or two centuries? The following dialogue between Mirri and Dany, while the pyre was prepared, seems to address precisely this question.

Quote

“It is not enough to kill a horse,” she told Dany. “By itself, the blood is nothing. You do not have the words to make a spell, nor the wisdom to find them. Do you think bloodmagic is a game for children? You call me maegi as if it were a curse, but all it means is wise. You are a child, with a child’s ignorance. Whatever you mean to do, it will not work. Loose me from these bonds and I will help you.”

It seems that Mirri has understood that Dany wants to hatch the eggs and that she claims to have the necessary knowledge. Without Mirri, Dany would be at the same point than all the Targaryens who failed and burnt into their own pyre. Dany refuses Mirri's offer for help and put the maegi in the pyre.

At this point, I need to introduce the main new suggestion. There is a single thing which is certain about the birth of the dragons:  three lives (Rhaego, Drogo, Mirri) had to be sacrificed. The equation is clear: a life has to pay for a life. But not all sacrificed lives are equal, and the newborn depends on whose life has been taken. In a certain way, the newborn inherits something from the sacrificed creature. Dany hints to that by the choice of the names of her dragons.

There is in fact strong textual evidence for this under our eyes. When Drogo is healed by Mirri, after the horse sacrifice, he ends up with a subhuman spirit, of the same level than a horse's spirit. Drogo's original spirit is somewhere with Rhaego's, waiting to enter a dragon. In a certain sense, Varamyr's final escape into the wolf follows the same logic.

According to my interpretation of the quoted passage, when Mirri found herself on the pyre, she knew that what Dany was attempting would not work on its own, but she thought to have the power to make the process succeed. So she acted. Of course, the maegi's sacrifice was necessary.

By giving birth to the dragons and giving her life at the same time, Mirri could earn some kind of second life in a dragon (I guess Viserion), which is at least better than death and perhaps full of possibilities. I don't necessarily envision something like warging, but rather a sense of purpose that passes into the beast, somewhat like the desire for revenge animating Lady Stoneheart, after Catelyn's death.

If what I am suggesting is right, that promises interesting developments.


A few words about the necessary ingredients for the birth: there are the sacrifices, the pyre. I think the spell (a birthing song) is necessary as well. It's an open question whether the comet and the moonless night played a role.

I wish I had time now to reply to every point I would like to. Greenhand: I promise I'll return to your posts. About magic and eating, do you know of any food tasting like ashes (of course the taste of ashes in Dany's mouth could come from the smoke from the brazier in the tent during the ceremony)?

tze, on 09 May 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

I'm really interested in why you think the idea that magic doesn't always work like the magic-user intends to be such an outlandish idea?

No objection to this idea. But even the failure of magic has to obey a certain logic, if only from the narrative point of view. My main concern with your suggestion is that we are not prepared to expect Mirri cast fire resistance spells, given no hint that her spells could fail and benefit someone else, and on top of that there is Dany's inexplicable intuition that she needs to go into the fire. That's too much to swallow. But I like the idea that Mirri tried desperately to prevent the eggs to hatch better than what you proposed before (you need to find more support for that though).

About the moment when Dany decided to walk into the pyre. I think tze's reading is more likely than the one I suggested: it was probably, but not certainly, unpremeditated. I tend to think Dany was at the same time drawn to and protected from the fire by Mirri's spell.

About the notion that Mirri wants vengeance on Dany. Let's forget the eggs for a moment. After Drogo's and Rhaego's death, Dany is practically nothing. Her khalasar is pitiful and on the brink of extinction. At best she is a powerless westerosi exile, at worst a dosh khaleen. There is no point in seeking revenge against her, and, as I noted uphtread, she does not deserve revenge. Even the fact that the khaleesi has delusions of grandeur might be annoying to some but does not make her a criminal in itself. So, I would expect Mirri to be neutral towards Dany. But the eggs change everything.

Edited by Bran Vras, 13 May 2012 - 06:01 PM.

[Bran Vras]

GreenHand, on 10 May 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

On Targaryen Pyres: Many presume that, because the dragon-hatching is blood-magic as noted by Mirri Maz Duur, a key component in the process (whether Dany's inadvertant ritual or Mirri's spell or cosmic confluence) was the burning of Khal Drogo. But Khal Drogo did not die in the fire, he was smother a short time earlier in his bed (by Dany admittedly). The Targaryens also burn their dead on pyres. Perhaps in times past, when dragons were routine/regularly (not frequently) hatched, this was part of a ritual to hatch a dragon. Perhaps a dragon hatched for everyone of their own (recently but already dead) they gave to the flames. So every time a Targaryen died a new dragon was born. If it were so, I could understand how this might look like the deceased Targaryen had actually "reincarnated" into the dragon or even transformed into a dragon. In earlier generations this may have been the fate of every Targaryen. Perhaps this is the origin of the strong family meme that Targaryens ARE dragons and BECOME dragons. (Even though the younger scions after the War of Conquest have forgotten the context). Addendum: Upthread I have suggested that the parallel of Mirri's Pyre singing parallels her singing in the tent suggests a two-phase "spell" akin to the Shadowbinding would have learned in Asshai and that Melisandre practices. In the tent Mirri claims to wake not only powers ancient and dark (ie Melisandre-esque shadows?) but specifically the dead: I further suggest that the hatching of dragons, also referred to as waking dragons from stone, required not only the giving of life or kingsblood through death but the binding of their shadow/shade/soul into the dragon. Thus the Dragon is in a sense consuming the soul, or "reembodying" the soul of the deceased. Implication: This may mean that Targaryens used in Dragon hatching rituals do not only symbolically become dragons but whatever remains of them after death actually does become or enter a dragon. This is admittedly somewhat speculative, but this has implications for Mirri's prophecy regarding Drogo. Many people tried to tie the prophecy to the fate of Drogon as an "incarnation" Drogo.

I just realized that we are postulating the same thing Greenhand: that's something of the sacrificed creature passes to the newborn dragon. My suggestion is that Mirri took the opportunity to pass that something of herself in one of the dragons.  

Let's return to the text in more detail.

1. Mirri is Dany's captive.

Quote

Dany called out for the men of her khas and bid them take Mirri Maz Duur and bind her hand and foot, but the maegi smiled at her as they carried her off, as if they shared a secret. A word, and Dany could have her head off... yet then what would she have? A head? If life was worthless, what was death?

which suggests that Mirri has more understanding that us of Dany.

2. Dany has a pyre prepared. Just to repeat what Mirri has said. Here is again the passage I quoted above.

Quote

Bound hand and foot, Mirri Maz Duur watched from the dust with disquiet in her black eyes. “It is not enough to kill a horse,” she told Dany. “By itself, the blood is nothing. You do not have the words to make a spell, nor the wisdom to find them. Do you think bloodmagic is a game for children? You call me maegi as if it were a curse, but all it means is wise. You are a child, with a child’s ignorance. Whatever you mean to do, it will not work. Loose me from these bonds andI will help you.”
“I am tired of the maegi’s braying,” Dany told Jhogo. He took his whip to her, and after that the godswife kept silent.

At this point, Mirri is displeased with Dany's incompetence. When she offers help, it's for the birth of dragons. What else? (It could be insincere, though.)

3. Dany prepares herself and Drogo, and put the eggs on the pyre. Mirri is still contemptuous.

Quote

As she climbed down off the pyre, she noticed Mirri Maz Duur watching her. “You are mad,” the godswife said hoarsely.
“Is it so far from madness to wisdom?” Dany asked. “Ser Jorah, take this maegi and bind her to the pyre.”

and

Quote

The godswife did not cry out as they dragged her to Khal Drogo’s pyre and staked her down amidst his treasures. Dany poured the oil over the woman’s head herself. “I thank you, Mirri Maz Duur,” she said, “for the lessons you have taught me.”
“You will not hear me scream,” Mirri responded as the oil dripped from her hair and soaked her clothing.
“I will,” Dany said, “but it is not your screams I want, only your life. I remember what you told me. Only death can pay for life.” Mirri Maz Duur opened her mouth, but made no reply. As she stepped away, Dany saw that the contempt was gone from the maegi’s flat black eyes; in its place was something that might have been fear.

The open mouth denotes surprise. Evidently, Mirri did not expect to be put on the pyre. The disappearance of contempt seems to indicate that Mirri understand that Dany's ceremony could work. "Something that might have been fear" is open to interpretation. In my view, it's a form of awe in the perspective of being involved in the birth of dragons.

4. For completeness, here are the final passages where Mirri mentioned, after the fire has started.

Quote

Mirri Maz Duur began to sing in a shrill, ululating voice.

(In my interpretation the birthing song, the necessary spell for the birth of dragons. Another effect could be that Dany was drawn to the pyre, while being protected at the same time. I guess  Dany had to go into the fire, to have the dragons bound to her. )

Quote

The fires swept over Mirri Maz Duur. Her song grew louder, shriller... then she gasped, again and again, and her song became a shuddering wail, thin and high and full of agony.

until

Quote

The pyre roared in the deepening dusk like some great beast, drowning out the fainter sound of Mirri Maz Duur’s screaming and sending up long tongues of flame to lick at the belly of the night.

Eggs did not hatch before Mirri went silent.

GreenHand, on 10 May 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

The Magick of what one eats (and does around it before):  

I am not sure how to understand what Mirri has done to Dany with her beverages, something certainly, some manipulations of dreams, probably. Concerning your suggestion that there is blood in the bitter beverage. It reminds me of the following passage in Jon, ACoK:

Quote

Ghost ate well that day, and Qhorin insisted that the rangers mix some of the garron’s blood with their oats, to give them strength. The taste of that foul porridge almost choked Jon, but he forced it down.

(And I suspect there is something in Qhorin's paste, which reminds me curiously of what Bran is given by Bloodraven.)

Finally, the theme of magic and food would be a terrific subject for another thread. In fact, it's much hinted that certain substances are magical: some wines, certain pastes, shade of the evening, sourleaf perhaps. I think that other substances are to be examined (and I have done so, but I haven't put anything in the forum yet): spices, notably cloves and saffron.

But the subject of Mirri Maz Durr is enough for this thread. If what I suggest (that something of Mirri will turn up in one of the dragons) is not discussed further here, I might start a separate thread.

[GreenHand]

Indeed, I entirely agree. I think that, as the details and history of magick in this world is progressively revealed, we will find that there is a great deal of continuity between the magick of the White Walkers, Old Gods, R'hollor and Old Valyria. This means that there will be more than just hints that blood, fire and death magick are one.

Dany says

A Game of Thrones said:

the maegi smiled at her as they carried her off,
A word, and Dany could have her head off . . . yet
head? If life was worthless, what was death?

The phrase in bold could be interpretted differently in terms of our hypothesis.

I find the idea that the quality of a sacrifice is important. Perhaps this is value of Kings blood, but what of the life/blood of a mage? Beware Melisandre and Marwyn.


Although Mirri mentions birthing alot and specifically songs of birthing (and the dragons are born). Consider that Moquorro uses a comparable sort of singing (we never hear Melisandre singing, even though it seems to work!) from Moquorro to heal Victarion with fire.

A Dance With Dragons, Chapter 56, The Iron Suitor said:

the crew of his Iron Victory reported hearing the sound of wild laughter coming from the captain’s cabin, laughter deep and dark and mad, and when Longwater Pyke and Wulfe One-Eye tried the cabin door they found it barred. Later singing was heard, a strange high wailing song in a tongue the maester said was High Valyrian.

(And then there is the curious shift to 3rd person during Vitarion's POV, which some think makes him a wight).

On Vengeance:

Bran Vras, on 10 May 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

About the notion that Mirri wants vengeance on Dany. Let's forget the eggs for a moment. After Drogo's and Rhaego's death, Dany is practically nothing. Her khalasar is pitiful and on the brink of extinction. At best she is a powerless westerosi exile, at worst a dosh khaleen. There is no point in seeking revenge against her, and, as I noted uphtread, she does not deserve revenge. Even the fact that the khaleesi has delusions of grandeur might be annoying to some but does not make her a criminal in itself. So, I would expect Mirri to be neutral towards Dany. But the eggs change everything.

I agree. To my mind it's not a given that Mirri desires vengeance on Dany. She seems to paint the Dothraki with a single contemptuous stroke as savage and destructive. But I she is more rebuking that hateful of Dany, as one would a stupid child. Which she explicitly calls her. So perhaps her offer to help Dany is genuine, being a motherly godswife and an appreciater of magick she has a "stern mother" attitude towards Dany. We might find that one of the dragons in particular likes Marwyn, "remembering" him.

On Ash:

Bran Vras, on 10 May 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

do you know of any food tasting like ashes (of course the taste of ashes in Dany's mouth could come from the smoke from the brazier in the tent during the ceremony)?

I couldn't find any reference to ash flavour in the text. After the Battle of Blackwater the burning of parts of King's Landing, food and the air tasted ash (precedent). But the simple answer could be that it's not from smoke but quite literall ash mixed into her food/drink. We are told that all (Valyrian) magick is based in blood or fire. But ash may unite blood and fire.The body/flesh with its blood may be burned in a magical ritual, leaving it with some properties that warrant future ingestion.
In the tent we know at least there was a brazier and one of the shadow even seemed to be burning... so it may be ash from the shadowbinding/dancing magic of that tent.

A Game Of Thrones, Chapter 64, Daenerys VIII said:

Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.

On Food Magick:

Bran Vras, on 10 May 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

Finally, the theme of magic and food would be a terrific subject for another thread. In fact, it's much hinted that certain substances are magical: some wines, certain pastes, shade of the evening, sourleaf perhaps. I think that other substances are to be examined (and I have done so, but I haven't put anything in the forum yet): spices, notably cloves and saffron.

Excellent. I think its a good thread. You should start it. I will if you don't, but I have some real world deadlines so I'll be a little less involved here for a little while. But I think there is a lot to post on Food and Magick.

You mention Qhorin Halfhand. I think there are also many hints that he is more than he seems, and may have magical inclinations. His fire staring may be a genuine R'hollor firegazing.

[Elaena Targaryen]

@ Bran Vras & GreenHand I like both of your speculations in this thread. I know this thread is for discussion about the pyre but I'm curious about something that happened before ( and Bran I know we have discussed part of this before )

This is when Mirri Maz Duur starts using blood magic to "save" Drogo...

So Dany is in the tent, MMD uses the bronze blade covered in ancient glyphs, blood, sang blah blah, lit braizers, red powder, made Dany leave. Outside everyone is mad or shocked, then MMD raises her voice into a high ululating wail the same descibed for spellsingers (birthing song?), MMD dancing with shadows*, Dany is pushed down, fighting started, then Dany goes into labor. So are we supposed to be distracted from the fighting so we don't realize what might be happening here.

I think MMD used this chance to make Dany go into labor and kill the baby or to switch him with a dragons egg. We know later when MMD said "you knew the price" (paraphrasing) that she was insinuating that she caused whatever happened to Rhaego and I don't think it was just that Jorah took Dany in the tent. It may have helped that he took her in the tent, but how to ensure this when MMD told her not too, and we know MMD was up to something.   

Now on to other theories that are connected....

I have seen it speculated that the three heads are the the dragon's soul mate, the dragon, and the rider the soul mate is the embryo that goes into the dragons egg to give it life. Which a soul going into the dragon egg to give it life is what most speculate anyway.

Then I thought this theory is interesting...

"when Dany held one of the eggs upon her pregnant belly the life force of unborn Rhaego was transfered into the egg, while the long dead embryo of the dragon was transferred into her womb. That would explain why Rhaego was described as 'long dead', 'filled with gravewyrms'."

But what if it was MMD that did this with a birthing song, it might be something similar to a changeling from folklore?

Quote

"Monstrous," Mirri Maz Duur finished for him. The knight was a powerful man, yet Dany understood in
that moment that the maegi was stronger, and crueler, and infinitely more dangerous. "Twisted. I drew
him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of
graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years."

I wanted to put the full description of the baby but also for this thought of Dany's..."Dany understood in
that moment that the maegi was stronger, and crueler, and infinitely more dangerous" It seems she knows MMD did all of this intentionally but to what extent I don't know.

This is when Dany wakes from the fever dreams after Rhaego dies ( but before Dany is told about Rhaego in the passage above )

Quote

...her arms were wrapped around a dragon's egg. It was the pale one, its scales the color of butter
cream, veined with whorls of gold and bronze, and Dany could feel the heat of it. Beneath her bedsilks, a fine sheen of perspiration covered her bare skin. Dragondew, she thought. Her fingers trailed lightly
across the surface of the shell, tracing the wisps of gold, and deep in the stone she felt something twist and stretch in response. It did not frighten her....

*shadows; I find the shadows Dany sees interesting also...

Quote

Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.

It could be MMD is utilizing different types of magic that she learned in Asshai. The man wreathed in flames seems symbolic of R'hllor or Valyrian sorcery. The great wolf seems symbolic of warging or maybe even symbolic of Moonsinger birthing spells.

Convoluted to say the least. This all just crackpot speculation but maybe it can lead somewhere.

[alienarea]

Just realized when reading the thread that MMD's nose is described like Craster's. Who gives sons to the WW (=shadows?).

I wonder if MMD fails to bind all shadows she raises in the tent and doesn't notice. One escapes and bonds with Dany. MMD wants to kill Rhaego with her singing and succeeds, but his life force transfers to one of the eggs - the one that cracks first on the pyre. When MMD is bound to the pyre she wants to protect herself and calls the shadows. But the shadow that has bonded with Dany already transfers the spell to Dany. When MMD realizes this that is her shocked moment. She wanted to kill the dragons and helped to birth them.

Crackpot: Dragons are like weappns of mass destruction. MMD = Mother of Mass Destruction?