66 replies to this topic

[Spidey]

Tadco26, on 08 May 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

^{I wouldn't assume anything based on what happens in the books after the death of Irri and the stealing of the dragon eggs.}

All of these divergences will ultimately be resolved in a way that leaves the overall direction of the story intact. It would be foolish not to do so.
GRRM called it the Butterfly Effect on one of his interviews. Meaning, a small change early on could lead to huge repercussions later.
So in order to prevent that, the eventual outcome needs to remain unchanged.

This is exactly what they did with the Jon/Craster-issue. It was a change that created additional tension and drama for a short time but ultimately was resolved quickly without lasting consequences.

[aimlessgun]

EDIT: Checked and I was wrong. They do meet in the first tourney scene, where Arya impertinently asks him why he's called Littlefinger. LF has eyes mostly for Sansa in the scene, but he does definitely get a good long look at Arya as well.

Littlefinger has never been in a scene with Arya the entire series, until now. So I think it's entirely possible that he does not recognize her.

Non-Starks that we see seeing Arya in KL: Trant, Syrio, 2 random gate guards, a dead fat boy. And wow, I think that's it.

Edited by aimlessgun, 08 May 2012 - 07:11 PM.

[ManyFacedOne]

I don't think he recognized her. I think he thought that something was up when she kept turning away from him, which is why he tried to get a better look at her, but his attention quickly went back to his conversation with Lord Tywin.

[Buckwheat]

I think he recognised her or at least suspects strongly about who she is. My prediction is that she will realise they know who she is (either LF or Tywin or both), like maybe she will hear LF telling Tywin about his suspicions, and this will lead to her decision to run away quickly before they close her and send her back to KL. Otherwise, they will have troubles explaining her escape - it is not like she has it worse in Harrenhal than on the road.

BTW, where is Hot Pie?

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

He certainly recognised her, I don't know how anyone could have any doubt of that. I think it will lead to him asking Tywin for Harrenhall as a reward (including its current staff/peasants) as a way of getting his hands on her without irking suspicion. Asking Tywin for his cupbearer might raise his eyebrows. Arya will have escaped by then and the series can explain why LF discards Harrenhall aften receiving it without explaining it was to give him the status for marriage (as this is too complicated for TV audiences).

[Mr Fixit]

RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon, on 09 May 2012 - 05:31 AM, said:

He certainly recognised her, I don't know how anyone could have any doubt of that. I think it will lead to him asking Tywin for Harrenhall as a reward (including its current staff/peasants) as a way of getting his hands on her without irking suspicion. Asking Tywin for his cupbearer might raise his eyebrows.

Now that's an interesting idea!

[Sun]

Yes. From the way Aidan Gillen played it, I'm fairly sure that Littlefinger recognized Arya as Tywin's cupbearer.

[jblair]

But is LF absolutely certain that Tywin *doesn't* know she is Arya? That is crucial information, considering the value of the captive in question. LF could hardly piss off Tywin more than to kidnap one of the most valuable hostages in Westeros...provided Tywin is aware of her identity. And LF can't ask Tywin directly or make a snarky comment about it either. A rather tricky bit of info, really. LF is just going to have to wait and see how this unfolds, and my guess is by the time he is certain Arya is already buh-bye.

Edited by jblair, 09 May 2012 - 11:51 AM.

[Stargareyen]

jblair, on 09 May 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

But is LF absolutely certain that Tywin *doesn't* know she is Arya? That is crucial information, considering the value of the captive in question. LF could hardly piss off Tywin more than to kidnap one of the most valuable hostages in Westeros...provided Tywin is aware of her identity. And LF can't ask Tywin directly or make a snarky comment about it either. A rather tricky bit of info, really. LF is just going to have to wait and see how this unfolds, and my guess is by the time he is certain Arya is already buh-bye.

It just pisses me off to see the king's treasurer run all over the Westeros with his schemes. We will probably see him meeting Robb in the next episode for all that we know...

The charm in Arya's storyline lies in the fact that no one (living) in the entire Westeros has a clue of where she is. When she comes down from Essos, all would have assumed her dead. It makes no sense in LF knowing her whereabouts.

[Queen Regent]

David Selig, on 07 May 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

I am not sure at all that LF recognised Arya. They have made LF such an idiot this season that it is to be expected that he didn't.

I wasn't sure that he recognized her AS ARYA.  My thinking was that he did indeed recognize her, but maybe couldn't place a finger on where from.  I might rewatch the episode tonight, just to see that part again.

[Stargareyen]

The episode actually portrayed Tywin as quite off his mark. He doesn't spot Arya's nervous actions, neither her attempts to hide her face by filling his cup by turning around. In spite of being a disciplinarian, he shrugs off Arya's error in pouring wine. Also, in the previous scene, he sees her reading the parchments, yet isn't alarmed by the loss of that note.

Anyways, if Tywin was so unfocussed, may be Littlefinger wasn't too bright either. Maybe the wine had muddled their senses.

[House Snow]

^  We really don't know what Tywin knows.  He obvious suspects something or he wouldn keep correcting her lies and implying that she isn't lowborn.  Here is an idea-lets see how it plays out before making unfounded statements.

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

Forget unfounded statements there's no way Tywin can know, or will find out otherwise he'd take her with him to K.L. He catagorically doesn't know and will never know. At most he'd think she could be a higher born North girl, no way will he think she's Arya Stark. Maybe when he goes to KL and finds Arya's not there he could think wistfully at the camera for a bit but that would be the most of it.

[Don't_call_me_Ser]

If it was all real and the main players of the game lived in close proximity and interacted "off camera", which after all is what we're supposed to allow for then LF would certainly know Arya to look at.

She's the daughter of the Hand and they've spoken at a joust.... There's no pretence that the only time anyone interacts is "on camera", alot of stuff happens off. The only saving grace for Arya in this situation would be that LF would never have expected to see Arya there and doesn't he currently think she's at KL?

[Terminated]

I rewatched.  I used to be confident he recognized her but not anymore.

I have the same feeling when meeting people in places I'm not used to see them, especially if dressed differently.
Recently I met my office's cleaning lady, dressed casually at the store - 100% sure I knew her, but absolutely no way to remember who she was.
But the next day: /facepalm.

Well that's the impression I got at the rewatch.  He knows he knows her, but can't remember who yet.  He might in the future however.

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

Terminated, on 10 May 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

I rewatched.  I used to be confident he recognized her but not anymore.

I have the same feeling when meeting people in places I'm not used to see them, especially if dressed differently.
Recently I met my office's cleaning lady, dressed casually at the store - 100% sure I knew her, but absolutely no way to remember who she was.
But the next day: /facepalm.

Well that's the impression I got at the rewatch.  He knows he knows her, but can't remember who yet.  He might in the future however.

I don't think these situations happen in a TV show, if he's gone to take a closer look then he's recognised her, there's no such thing as "I can't quite put my finger on where she's from" in a show like this

[Tadco26]

Spidey, on 08 May 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

All of these divergences will ultimately be resolved in a way that leaves the overall direction of the story intact. [/sup][/size]It would be foolish not to do so.
GRRM called it the Butterfly Effect on one of his interviews. Meaning, a small change early on could lead to huge repercussions later.
So in order to prevent that, the eventual outcome needs to remain unchanged.

This is exactly what they did with the Jon/Craster-issue. It was a change that created additional tension and drama for a short time but ultimately was resolved quickly without lasting consequences.

Arya's story has barely resembled her book time in Harrenhal so I wouldn't assume anything based on the books.

Book summary of Arya at Harrenhal:

• Arrives, asks to serve in stables, gets slapped and sent to do manual labor under Weese.
  
• Jaqen offers her 3 deaths.
  
• names Chiswyck, after she overheard him boast at how he participated in a gang rape, who dies three days later.
  
• Names Weese after he strikes her.
  
• She realises she should have said Tywin's name or Amory Lorch
  
• Last she names Jaqen himself.
  
• In order to make her unsay his name, Jaqen helps her free the Northmen in the dungeon and stage an uprising.
  
• Jaqen changes his face and gives Arya an iron coin so she could find him again and leaves.
  
• Roose Bolton takes over Harrenhal and Arya, is made of one of Roose's cup-bearers, for her role in the freeing of the prisoners.  She tells Roose her name is Nan.
  
• Arya wishes to leave with Roose in an effort to get back to Winterfell and her family, and she speaks out of turn to ask him what will happen to her. He threatens her for speaking out, and tells her she is not coming with him.
  
• Harrenhal is going to be left to Vargo Hoat, so Arya escapes with Gendry and Hot Pie, killing a House Bolton gate guard.

TV version:

• Arya is made cup bearer to Tywin and generally treated better than he treats his own children.
  
• Tywin catches her in several lies which she attempts to cover up with further lies, which seems to amuse Tywin.
  
• Jaqen offers her 3 deaths.
  
• Arya chooses the Tickler for death #1, who dies shortly later by being thrown from a wall.
  
• Amory Lorch sends a letter to the wrong lord making it clear he is illiterate, and Arya shows Tywin that she is not by fetching a book he asks for.  She lies and says her father was a stone mason who taught himself how to read.
  
• Arya is forced to serve wine to Littlefinger and Tywin and Littlefinger appears to recognize her despite her efforts to hide her face and stay out of his line of sight.
  
• Tywin opens up about his past to his cupbearer sharing about Jamie's dyslexia.
  
• Arya steals a note with information about the Lannister's war against Robb.
  
• Amory catches her with the note and tries to bring her to Tywin, but she runs around a corner and hides and loses him.
  
• Arya gets Jaqen to kill Ser Amory to prevent him from telling Tywin what she has done, which he does with a dart at Tywin's door.

Really the only things that are the same are Arya is at Harrenhal and Jaqen has offered her 3 deaths.  None of the deaths have been the same and none of her experiences at Harrenhal have mirrored the books at all so to expect that it suddenly will certainly isn't a given.

Edited by Tadco26, 10 May 2012 - 10:42 AM.

[Ser Greguh]

While the show has been different from the books, it's been mostly in details that aren't really that meaningful; Arya still wastes her first death on a vile soldier as a "test", and uses her second out of an immediate need (in the book she felt she had to get out from under Weese's watchful eye before she could do anything useful; the show crystalized that need a bit more urgently, and killed off a minor character only a bit before his death in the books at the hand of a character that has so far been cut).

I'm fairly confident they'll keep the third "death" largely the same, except that it will be Bolton that gets captured (economy of characters), and Bolton's takeover of the castle won't be aided by a Lannister turncloak (since we have no Vargo Hoat, Amory Lorch is dead, and it's a little late in the season to introduce a new major Lannister henchman out of the blue).  That makes Arya's effort a meaningful thing, not the empty gesture that it was in the books, where the entire capture was a ruse and Arya just gummed up the plan a little (which I actually think will be an improvement).  Tywin will have just left for KL with Littlefinger (I'm guessing they'll skip over the whole Battle of the Fords drama, since without an Edmure there's no real point to that), but that gives them the endpoint of showing up in KL at the last moments of the battle and saving the day with Tyrell troops from the alliance that LF forged, which is still right there with the books.

That also still puts Arya in a position to be Bolton's cupbearer, but have her realize that Bolton is every bit as bad as Tywin was (if not worse) and decide to escape (hopefully still with Gendry and Hot Pie) rather than risk revealing herself.   Which will be intercut nicely with Ramsay's sacking of Winterfell and the revelation that the Boltons are up to no good, allowing the viewer to realize that Arya did the right thing.

D&D aren't changing things just to change them.  There's been a lot of necessary compression but from my POV it seems to have been dons specifically so that they can still get to the end point of the books.

As far as LF's glance, I don't think he recognized Arya, other than perhaps getting a slight tinge of recognition but not being able to place it.  It's possible they're setting up a Eureka moment for him later, but it will be after it's too late for anything to come of it and thus won't actually effect anything.

[Dragon greyscale]

Tadco26, on 10 May 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

Arya's story has barely resembled her book time in Harrenhal so I wouldn't assume anything based on the books.

Book summary of Arya at Harrenhal:

• Arrives, asks to serve in stables, gets slapped and sent to do manual labor under Weese.
  
• Jaqen offers her 3 deaths.
  
• names Chiswyck, after she overheard him boast at how he participated in a gang rape, who dies three days later.
  
• Names Weese after he strikes her.
  
• She realises she should have said Tywin's name or Amory Lorch
  
• Last she names Jaqen himself.
  
• In order to make her unsay his name, Jaqen helps her free the Northmen in the dungeon and stage an uprising.
  
• Jaqen changes his face and gives Arya an iron coin so she could find him again and leaves.
  
• Roose Bolton takes over Harrenhal and Arya, is made of one of Roose's cup-bearers, for her role in the freeing of the prisoners.  She tells Roose her name is Nan.
  
• Arya wishes to leave with Roose in an effort to get back to Winterfell and her family, and she speaks out of turn to ask him what will happen to her. He threatens her for speaking out, and tells her she is not coming with him.
  
• Harrenhal is going to be left to Vargo Hoat, so Arya escapes with Gendry and Hot Pie, killing a House Bolton gate guard.

TV version:

• Arya is made cup bearer to Tywin and generally treated better than he treats his own children.
  
• Tywin catches her in several lies which she attempts to cover up with further lies, which seems to amuse Tywin.
  
• Jaqen offers her 3 deaths.
  
• Arya chooses the Tickler for death #1, who dies shortly later by being thrown from a wall.
  
• Amory Lorch sends a letter to the wrong lord making it clear he is illiterate, and Arya shows Tywin that she is not by fetching a book he asks for.  She lies and says her father was a stone mason who taught himself how to read.
  
• Arya is forced to serve wine to Littlefinger and Tywin and Littlefinger appears to recognize her despite her efforts to hide her face and stay out of his line of sight.
  
• Tywin opens up about his past to his cupbearer sharing about Jamie's dyslexia.
  
• Arya steals a note with information about the Lannister's war against Robb.
  
• Amory catches her with the note and tries to bring her to Tywin, but she runs around a corner and hides and loses him.
  
• Arya gets Jaqen to kill Ser Amory to prevent him from telling Tywin what she has done, which he does with a dart at Tywin's door.

Really the only things that are the same are Arya is at Harrenhal and Jaqen has offered her 3 deaths.  None of the deaths have been the same and none of her experiences at Harrenhal have mirrored the books at all so to expect that it suddenly will certainly isn't a given.

Is it just me or is your comparison a bit skewed in terms of descriptive/judgmental statements? Serious question btw.
It's clauses like "kinder than his children" and the extra details you give about the tv deaths that made me wonder.

[Stargareyen]

Terminated, on 10 May 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

I rewatched.  I used to be confident he recognized her but not anymore.

I have the same feeling when meeting people in places I'm not used to see them, especially if dressed differently.
Recently I met my office's cleaning lady, dressed casually at the store - 100% sure I knew her, but absolutely no way to remember who she was.
But the next day: /facepalm.

Well that's the impression I got at the rewatch.  He knows he knows her, but can't remember who yet.  He might in the future however.

Good points. I totally agree, he didnt realize why she is so familiar.

TV Arya at least made one good choice. Amory Lorch was partly responsible for the deaths of Rhaeger's wife Elia and her children.