273 replies to this topic

[Mr Fixit]

protar, on 13 May 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

Perhaps you should look up the definition of hyperbole. I do not want or expect a 100% adaptation. I realise there are things that wouldn't work on screen even if they did in the books. But seriously. Are you actually defending Ros and her lesbian scenes? Or LF teleporting across westeros? Seriously, do not put words in my mouth.

No danger of me doing that, rest assured. As for LF, do explain how is it that he teleports around. If you look at the map, you'll see it's perfectly manageable. As for Ros, I couldn't care less about her *or* all the righteous indignation about her.

[protar]

Mr Fixit, on 13 May 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

No danger of me doing that, rest assured. As for LF, do explain how is it that he teleports around. If you look at the map, you'll see it's perfectly manageable. As for Ros, I couldn't care less about her *or* all the righteous indignation about her.

Again hyperbole. If you'd actually read the other posts in this thread it's not really the fact that LF is traveling quickly, it's the fact that D+D are shoehorning him in to scenes were he should not be.

[Bastard of Boston]

protar, on 13 May 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

I don't mean to be disdainful towards D+D, I try to rationalise why they make certain changes and I understand that changes must be made. But sometimes there is just no good reason for some changes. Take the peach example. It doesn't detriment the adaptation that it wasn't there, but there was no reason for it's absence. The ham line that replaced it was funny, but the peach moment could've been made funny as well, but it would still of had a potential hidden meaning that the ham line didn't. Are they going to have Stannis saying: "I shall go to my grave thinking of Renly's ham." ?

Yes, but, then we have to consider the other side of this argument. Would it have killed them to fit a peach into the budget? Absolutely not. I'm sure there must have been a farmer's market around. However, now we ask ourselves, did the peach omission have a detrimental effect on the story? Did it need to be there or did we just want it there? I feel we must draw a line between the *needs* of adaptation vs. the *wants* of adaptation.

I apologize if I'm belaboring this peach example. I'm using it for the sake of argument and as a stand-in for any number of other novel beats that are being edited out on the show.

[Mr Fixit]

protar, on 13 May 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

Again hyperbole. If you'd actually read the other posts in this thread it's not really the fact that LF is traveling quickly, it's the fact that D+D are shoehorning him in to scenes were he should not be.

Now we're onto something.

As in, not in the books.

Edited by Mr Fixit, 13 May 2012 - 03:40 PM.

[SerMixalot]

umm ok assume we forget that GRRM wrote a series of books

lets consider something for a second

why did the Master of coin for the lannister/baratheon king go to see King Renly the usurper?

to bring cat her husbands bones or so HBO would have us believe

ummm how did LF and the lannisters know she was there?

and ok lets now have LF go to see Tywin, ummm to make a snide remark that tywin dismisses

yes all so very very very important

[Mr Fixit]

SerMixalot, on 13 May 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

and ok lets now have LF go to see Tywin, ummm to make a snide remark that tywin dismisses

yes all so very very very important

Well, I thought that scene set the foundation for the entire season endgame. But maybe that's just me.

And please don't say it was different in the books. Mighty please?

[protar]

Mr Fixit, on 13 May 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

Now we're onto something.

As in, not in the books.

I acept scenes not from the books, but only if they help in some way to convey the story that GRRM wrote. To use LF as an example:

. Having scenes of LF negotiating with the Tyrells at Bitterbridge would have been a good example. We don't know what went down there so doubtless it wouldn't follow exactly what Martin had in mind. So something like the scene we already had but in its proper place were it makes sense (i.e no talking with Cat or Renly.)

.Having LF pop up in Harrenhal and spotting Arya is not a good example. What are they going to do with this? They can't do anything with it unless they drastically change the story beyond looking anything like ASOIAF.

.A good example is the Tickler's death. 100% not from the books but neccessary so they don't have to introduce Weese.

See the differences?

Edited by protar, 14 May 2012 - 02:03 AM.

[Mr Fixit]

Protar, it's obvious you don't understand what a deviation is. You accept scenes that might have happened, but that were off the page in the books, like LF and Tyrells or Cersei and Robert scene is Season 1. But that's not really a deviation, is it? It's only filling in the blanks, showing us, the viewers, somethings that may well have happend in the books themselves but that GRRM omitted to present because of the POV strucure.

It's just so silly to have a problem with a scene not because it's badly written or acted, or nonsensical in terms of plot, but just because a character "shouldn't have been there". What does that even mean?

Edited by Mr Fixit, 14 May 2012 - 05:39 AM.

[Acetabularia]

Personally I have no problem with the dragons being taken, my problem with that scene is that Dany's little khalasar is butchered. It's probably just me, but I find Dany's character development very important (If I look back I am lost). I hope they didn't completely kill the Dothraki, just because they don't have as much of an impact on the story in Quarth.

[protar]

Mr Fixit, on 14 May 2012 - 05:39 AM, said:

Protar, it's obvious you don't understand what a deviation is. You accept scenes that might have happened, but that were off the page in the books, like LF and Tyrells or Cersei and Robert scene is Season 1. But that's not really a deviation, is it? It's only filling in the blanks, showing us, the viewers, somethings that may well have happend in the books themselves but that GRRM omitted to present because of the POV strucure.

It's just so silly to have a problem with a scene not because it's badly written or acted, or nonsensical in terms of plot, but just because a character "shouldn't have been there". What does that even mean?

You're really testing my patience. Ok take the Theon scenes in this season. His shouting match with Balon, burning that letter to Robb, his baptism. None of those things happened in the books but they were great scenes and they translated the story better on to the screen. And Theon executing Rodrik was heartwrenching. That's definitely a deviation but it was a great scene and wouldn't have worked nearly as well if it was just some random peasant dying in the books. Or take Dany's arc in Qarth. It's certainly not what I'd have done, but something needed to happen with Dany in S2 aside from the HOTU and I respect that change.

But that's my gripe. These deviations should be used aid the translation of the story onto the small screen. So stuff that compresses subtle character nuances that span hundreds of pages of the books into 1 or 2 scenes in the show. That's good. Or something to get the plot moving quickly because the subplot that facilitated an event in the books had to be cut. That's good. What isn't good is adding things in were they don't need to be added. Considering the fact that the story already has to be compressed into a limited space D+D certainly shouldn't be adding things.

And what's worse, most of these things like LF noticing Arya, or Craster knocking out Jon are nothing more than cheap shocks. The producers seem to want to play about with the source material but they don't want to deviate completely, meaning that next scene when they try to shove things back on track we've just had our time wasted for something that wasn't even supenseful for book readers. They shouldn't be doing that.

I'm not sure how I can make this any clearer to you so...

Edited by protar, 14 May 2012 - 11:50 AM.

[Edmund Cardinal]

protar, on 14 May 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

And what's worse, most of these things like LF noticing Arya, or Craster knocking out Jon are nothing more than cheap shocks. The producers seem to want to play about with the source material but they don't want to deviate completely, meaning that next scene when they try to shove things back on track we've just had our time wasted for something that wasn't even supenseful for book readers. They shouldn't be doing that.

You're pointing the very thing that annoys me since the beginning of this season. Thanks a lot for that.
On one hand things going to fast, on the other hand, pointless things being added.

More than a waste of time, it really distorts the fragile and carefully built plot with flaws we were not used to in the characters' behaviour...

[Sir Achibald Carlstark]

I am OUTRAGED by the chop chop chopyness that hollywood has done with season 2. Theon wasnt cohersed into taking winterfell, he talked his uncle into attaching winterfell. The two boys he killed were the sons of a WOMAN theon used to have sex with in his youth not some old man with orphans on loan from Bran........And what of Jojen and his sister? they havent been introduced i hope Asha and Riccan dont end up being the other two that stay with bran.......Theres just so many incositancies already that lead to more incasitancys and plot holes. Why is Rob's relationship being trumped up so much? in the book it was only let on in his return that he had remarried....kind of a surpise for the reader and should be for the viewer but not now.......WHERE IS REEK!!!! aka ramsey bolten aka one of the mega villians of the series? He killed sir roddric!! not theon with 4 chops to the neck! Ramsey did......What about the two Fray boys big walder and little walder!?!? I dont care that they had to give danny something to do, to be honest i listend to all my books on tape and i slept through a couple chapters and only rember her emerginge from the houseo f the undyeing as it layed turned to flames.....but i know they didnt steal her dragons.....Like i said.....The more libertys they take with this book and these chapters the more holes and butchery they are going to have to come up with later.......Season 1.....Perfect.....i could not belive how right on they got the first season.....but this? its like they were nipping bits and peices to save time because they gave more time to stupid scenes.......i mean according to everyone else on this site everyone loves it.......which i definalty dont mind watching it but its like nails on the chalkboard when they mess something up that was crafted so beautifully like these stories....i just hope that they can save this series before its complete horse puckey

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Great thread.

As others have said, changes can be great if they're useful and true to character.  I have a problem with them when they're not.

Overall I see a watering down of a lot of characters, presumably to make them more acceptable to general viewing audiences or to make their behavior more understandable?  Leaving out Tyrion's participation in the rape of Tysha is one example.  LOTS of effort is being made to show a human side to Cersei and moral confusion in Theon up front, which I don't see as being true to either of their characters or the narrative as a whole.

Referencing material from the next episode, I HATED the scene with Tyrion and Cersei where she's crying over the debacle Joff has become and feeling guilt and remorse over her twincest and Tyrion wants to console her.  THEY HATE EACH OTHER.  WOULD NEVER HAPPEN.  Well, Tyrion might have responded to humanity in Cersei if she ever showed any in the books, but Cersei hates/fears Tyrion because she believes he is the valonqar who will ruin her life.  Not to mention the fact that her pride would never allow her to admit fault to ANYONE, least of all Tyrion, at least at this point in the story.

Theon, dude watched someone die then kicked his decapitated head and laughed at it- laughs at everything- moral confusion does not come into play for him until he offs the miller's kids, and doesn't really set in until he gets Reeked, iirc.  I really believe we're supposed to hate and despise him at this point, not understand and pity him.  It makes the whole Reek storyline much more powerful when we get there.

The Tywin/Arya relationship....at first I was intrigued, but the more I think about it the more it bothers me.  Another watering down.  I like somebody's comment about his "heart of gold."  Not true to character for him to develop this fatherly relationship with a little girl he respects?  And you're telling me the brilliant Tywin doesn't put two and two together that this little highborn girl from the North trying to conceal her identity who's just about Arya's age....??  And please don't argue that he knows and is just keeping her close.  No way.  Too careful to take the risk of her getting away somehow.  Even if you can swallow that he wouldn't figure out who she was, at the VERY least he'd be doing everything in his power- and I mean every brutal thing cuz thanks to the Tysha episode we know he's cold as hell- to find out who the f*** this girl is so that he could use her in some way depending on which noble house she belonged to.  All that being said, I LOVED the "anyone can be killed" scene.  Perfectly shot, perfectly written, perfectly acted.

The Reeds, we'll see.

LF popping up everywhere makes me nervous....as do lots of "changes," because some of these things may not really be changes in the end.  Could be they're entirely accurate but just haven't yet been revealed in the books.  Remember GRRM has let D&D in on what's to come.  So everything I see that's different I wonder if I'm getting surprises in future books ruined for me... LF is a good example of this b/c he does disappear in the books for quite some time and we never know what he was up to; I find it completely conceivable and interesting to see him brokering the Tyrell marriage, and wonder if it wasn't there all along just not yet revealed.

Robb/Talisa I agree that she's Jeyne in disguise and was pleased to see someone else who feels she's the source of the intelligence Arya nabs off Tywin's table.  This makes her far more complicit in Robb's downfall than she has seemed in the books.  Don't think it's true to character but it's definitely better than her being some random Volantene Clara Barton.  Clearly though, she's going to be won over by Robb's honorable nature and charisma and switch sides....but too late...

I do wish we could stop being hit over the head with setup for Tyrion and Sansa's marriage....producers seem paranoid that the general population will be so enraged by it that they'll stop watching altogether, although if they've read some of these threads I can't say that's unrealistic.

BEST inclusion has to be Rickon smashing up shit at the table next to Bran...I think this is another example of us being set up for things we haven't seen in the books yet.  I've had a feeling about the savage degree of Rickon's badassery for a long time and this gives me further support, cuz I don't see the point of its inclusion other than to foreshadow what he will become down the line.  He'll be smashing faces and heads before he's through....can't wait...

[Rickon is FIERCE]

I will have a tantrum if that awesome cowboy scene between Jon Snow and Qhorin Halfhand on the eve of his death doesn't happen.  One of the highlights of the entire story.