69 replies to this topic

[Sand11751]

His smiles personally creep me out. Even in his caring for his family and his insistence on curing Jaime's dyslexia, there's no warmth in Tywin.  When Arya said "Anyone can be killed" the look on his face literally said, "Bitch, you better not mean me," which is of course what she meant to convey. He tolerates Arya because she does what she's told. He can smile at her all he wants, but the effect will never reduce the threat of menace he conveys. Arya is too smart to think otherwise.

[atia-]

Rob Snow, on 08 May 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Of course based on all the plot changes that have taken place so far this year, it will probably be Joffrey who orders the Red Wedding.

You know....even though that sounds absolutely ridiculous, I wouldn't put it past D&D at this point.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Sand11751, on 08 May 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

His smiles personally creep me out. Even in his caring for his family and his insistence on curing Jaime's dyslexia, there's no warmth in Tywin.  When Arya said "Anyone can be killed" the look on his face literally said, "Bitch, you better not mean me," which is of course what she meant to convey. He tolerates Arya because she does what she's told. He can smile at her all he wants, but the effect will never reduce the threat of menace he conveys. Arya is too smart to think otherwise.

Not really a smile.  Just the threat of one.  Which is terrible to behold.

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

Another week, another thread of love for Charles Dance. I can only agree with how amazing he has been this season. Can't think of an other actor/actress in the series who has nailed the character as well as Dance.

"The threat of a smile." Yeah, that pretty much describes it.

[King Stannis]

People thought Tywin was cold, heartless, etc in the novels, but in reality, we see most of this through Tyrion's POV. And Tywin does act like this to him. But this side of Tywin fits the character we've seen. Still competent, still ruthless, but only when it is needed. Very, very pragmatic

[Pliny]

Iszlai Ádám, on 08 May 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

I don't feel like Tywin would be out of character, i just feel we see those sides of his personality which weren't explained in the book but were hinted in some way. Although we haven't seen Tywin in the books doing things like we see in the movie, i always pictured him a character like this. The first moment i actually disliked him in the book was before his death when Tyrion revealed him with Shae.

Heh- same here. Then I read the below posts and felt a little guilty.

Knight Of Winter, on 08 May 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

But how can Tywin not be viewed as a villain? He directly oposses every trait and characteristic that make human beings actually human. He has no moral compass at all, and puts all his energy towards one goal - maikng house Lannister more powerful. For this goal Tywin is willing to do literally everything - let people be killed, let people be tortured, let more people be killed, let women be raped and even sacrifice happiness of other members (some of them are his own children) of House he's trying to lead.

Every action Tywin takes is about achieving his only goal most efficiently. For example:

1) he wants to scare River-lords and reduce their wealth --> he sends Gregor to pillage, torture and kill their peasants. Not the decision any decent man would make - but most efficient.

2) he wants to diminish the value of captive Starks have captured --> he gives up on Jaime as his son. Again - the most efficient course of action.

3) he wants to teach his son a lesson --> so he has his wife gang-raped by his garrison. Well, it made Tyrion hate him for the rest of his life - but he sure learned his lesson.

4) he wants people to fear him --> thus he is willing to keep people such as Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch at his side...

5) ...among many other examples such as RW, him ordering killings of Rhaegar's children...


For further explanations and elaborations about Tywin's character, let me just say that I wholeheartedly agree with post quoted below (original thread is here: http://asoiaf.wester...an-in-westeros/):

[List of Tywin's bad acts - it's pretty compelling]

Jeeze, when you put it that way... So, I've been infatuated with his poise and power, and been an apologist for his horrible acts... Shit.

But, correct me if I'm wrong, don't we usually hear about Tywin from people who both fear and respect/admire him? Certainly, his kids are always talking about which one of them is the "Tywin," and what their father would think. Tyrion both loathes and admires his father, doesn't he?

The only reason I bring it up is because I'm wondering why so many of us "got it wrong" with our assessment or Lord Tywin Lannister.

[While I'm already identified as a Tywin-apologist, ;)  I'll just posit that the portrayal of the peasants' suffering is just more of the theme that the "smallfolk" are the ones who always suffer when the nobles play their game of you-know-whats. Jorah says something along these lines to Dany:
    The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace. They never are. ]

[The Monkey]

Tywin is hard and ruthless, and does treat the peasants (and Tyrion) like shit.

But I don't think his "softness" in this episode is a character flaw. It's not unthinkable that he, after a long hard day, would sit down a contemplate his childhood in front of the fire hearth. I didn't perceive it like he was really telling Arya about his memories of his father, but rather than he was talking to himself, and in a way justifying his own harshness by comparing to his father weakness, which almost lead to the fall of House Lannister.

[Eddard Sand]

In some ways Arya is a perfect shrink/venting system for Tywin. She is intelligent and bold enough to understand and respond to him with more than "yes, milord, i agree completely milord." She also is powerless and seemingly posses no threat to him so he can share these little tidbits of his past freely. Tywin isn't a psychopath so he shares the same emotional needs as any man, sometimes you just need someone to talk to. It gets lonely at the top...

[RSasoiaf]

I have only one thing against it so far......the idea that he didnt want the war and would like to broke some peace.

Yeahhhhhhh.....right!!!!!

That is exactly the same guy that launched an all out assault on the riverlands and went personally up to meet Robb in battle. That so looked like someone who wants peace.

Are we to think he is just lying about it or are we to buy into it?

[StarkWard]

If for nothing else, HBO wants the viewers to somehow feel sympathetic to all the characters who are going to die.

[Gendry]

I think he's spot on, nails Tywin Lannister.

Tywin is never cruel (except with Tyrion), he is cold and calculated and is only concerned with the glory and honor of his family name.

[JW.]

Funny, it seems they have made Cersei and Tywin more likeable and made Joffrey even worse. Main Antagonist, kind of thing.. maybe? I don't get it atleast, I miss the Tywin Ruthlessness from the books and Cersei who atleast would give Tyrion a fight in ACOK.

[Tadco26]

Gendry, on 11 May 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

I think he's spot on, nails Tywin Lannister.

Tywin is never cruel (except with Tyrion), he is cold and calculated and is only concerned with the glory and honor of his family name.

Never cruel?  How about the deserters who's knee caps he had broken with hammers after the Battle of Blackwater, or the women and children he had murdered and raped by Ser Amory, Ser Gregor, and the Brave Companions in order to try and provoke the Starks/Tullys to attack Harrenhal.  Or the attrocities he had Ser Gregor commit that led to Ned sending Lord Berric after the Mountain?  How about giving up on Jamie when he is in captivity when he tells Tyrion he is his only son now as he appoints him to Hand of the King, or disowning Jamie when he refuses to give up his spot as head of the Kingsguard?

Tywin counseled his father to send Lord Tarbeck back to his wife in 3 pieces when she captured 3 Lannister hostages.  The brutatlity of his destruction of House Reyne led to the song the Rains of Castamere.  Tywin had his father's mistress cast out naked and forced to tell every one she met that she was a thief and harlot before Tywin banished her from his lands.  He became despised in King's Landing for his men sacking the city after Aery's death.

Now he didn't seem to do cruel acts because he enjoyed them, but the acts done under his direct commands certainly are closer to cruel than kind.  It's kind of like saying Bin Ladin wasn't that big a terrorist threat because he didn't personally blow up anything in the US.

[StannisandDaeny]

As someone else said 'Charles Dance shows up for 2 minutes and just owns the entire episode', and I couldn't agree more. I liked his parts immensely. As for appearing more human... Even Tywin is, after all, only human. Why do you think he hides behind such a stern face? No one is naturally like that. I *think* I understand him a little because I've written a character that had something in common with him at one time: the sense of duty towards an institution (in this case, his House) and the psychology of 'the goal justifies the means' because he was so convicted because of his anger of his house being a disgrace and a laughing stock, and realizing you've reached the point you can't turn back on that or reverse time, and thus just carry on to at least be successful, even if it does come at a huge cost, even though you know it's wrong. Realizing his children are screwing everything up (Tywin likely knows the possibility is large the rumours about Jaime and Cersei are true, he's no fool) and that his House would likely simply crumble again once he's gone despite all his sacrifices would wear a man down eventually and have him at least need to vent these thoughts now and then. He's not really nice in the show though, I don't think most people who've only seen the show will see him as a nice person and have a lot of sympathy for him, we just think he's a lot nicer now because in the books he's much worse.

[RSasoiaf]

Tadco26, on 11 May 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

Never cruel?  How about the deserters who's knee caps he had broken with hammers after the Battle of Blackwater, or the women and children he had murdered and raped by Ser Amory, Ser Gregor, and the Brave Companions in order to try and provoke the Starks/Tullys to attack Harrenhal.  Or the attrocities he had Ser Gregor commit that led to Ned sending Lord Berric after the Mountain?  How about giving up on Jamie when he is in captivity when he tells Tyrion he is his only son now as he appoints him to Hand of the King, or disowning Jamie when he refuses to give up his spot as head of the Kingsguard?

Tywin counseled his father to send Lord Tarbeck back to his wife in 3 pieces when she captured 3 Lannister hostages.  The brutatlity of his destruction of House Reyne led to the song the Rains of Castamere.  Tywin had his father's mistress cast out naked and forced to tell every one she met that she was a thief and harlot before Tywin banished her from his lands.  He became despised in King's Landing for his men sacking the city after Aery's death.

Now he didn't seem to do cruel acts because he enjoyed them, but the acts done under his direct commands certainly are closer to cruel than kind.  It's kind of like saying Bin Ladin wasn't that big a terrorist threat because he didn't personally blow up anything in the US.

THIS and THIS and again THIS

By the way, the fact that Tywin WAS INDEED CRUEL IN THE BOOKS has a lot to do with how his kids turn out to be when they grow up. In the books it is quite clear that after their mother´s death things just went south at home and they all lack on fatherly love and proper guidance.

Now if you watch series Tywin you have to wonder how the hell did his kids turn out that bad if he seems to be almost a nice fatherly figure. It is also funny that he just turned like that for season 2. He was nowhere near this nice when he was introduced in season 1 and when we did see him interact with both his male kids. His character was a lot more faithfull to the books on season 1 and now it just rebooted for plot convinience so they can have him safe around Arya.

[Honey Badger]

RSasoiaf, on 09 May 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

I have only one thing against it so far......the idea that he didnt want the war and would like to broke some peace.

Yeahhhhhhh.....right!!!!!

That is exactly the same guy that launched an all out assault on the riverlands and went personally up to meet Robb in battle. That so looked like someone who wants peace.

Are we to think he is just lying about it or are we to buy into it?

That's not it.  In the books, he wanted the peace with the Starks and to let Ned take the Black.  Stark and Baratheon out of King's Landing with Lannister control was just fine with him.  It was Joffrey's stupidity with the beheading that set everything off.  Joffrey was bad enough so that Tywin thought it was time for a "lesson," and Tyrion, despite himself, actually felt bad for Joff.

Tywin isn't a evil dictator looking to slaughter for fun.  Even the business with The Mountain raping and pillaging was just to draw Ned out so he could be captured.  But Jaime with his bravado confronted Ned and injured him, which is where Beric came in to take his place.  Tywin unfortunately doesn't have family members that does what he wants.

[atia-]

Tadco26, on 11 May 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

Never cruel?  How about the deserters who's knee caps he had broken with hammers after the Battle of Blackwater, or the women and children he had murdered and raped by Ser Amory, Ser Gregor, and the Brave Companions in order to try and provoke the Starks/Tullys to attack Harrenhal.  Or the attrocities he had Ser Gregor commit that led to Ned sending Lord Berric after the Mountain?  How about giving up on Jamie when he is in captivity when he tells Tyrion he is his only son now as he appoints him to Hand of the King, or disowning Jamie when he refuses to give up his spot as head of the Kingsguard?

Tywin counseled his father to send Lord Tarbeck back to his wife in 3 pieces when she captured 3 Lannister hostages.  The brutatlity of his destruction of House Reyne led to the song the Rains of Castamere.  Tywin had his father's mistress cast out naked and forced to tell every one she met that she was a thief and harlot before Tywin banished her from his lands.  He became despised in King's Landing for his men sacking the city after Aery's death.

Now he didn't seem to do cruel acts because he enjoyed them, but the acts done under his direct commands certainly are closer to cruel than kind.  It's kind of like saying Bin Ladin wasn't that big a terrorist threat because he didn't personally blow up anything in the US.

I totally agree with this.  I think some of Tywin's cruelness is being understated.  Gregor and Amory Lorch are terrible, evil rapist/murderers and Tywin is just a "brilliant war strategist."

Edited by hk47, 11 May 2012 - 11:58 PM.

[summer_stark]

i do like TV Tywin -- a lot -- but my first thought when he made arya cupbearer was -- he will be good to her, which will explain to the viewer why she doesn't pick him, which is exactly what's happening.  he is cruel to his men and not super nice to arya all the time -- but he is nice enough to her that she has it easy with him as her "boss".

also, re: the people wondering whether Tywin and/or LF know -- at first I totally disagreed with this, but I can totally see D&D making it so that LF/Tywin know who she is, and arya finds out and that sparks her escape.  that wouldn't explain the third death though -- and i will be bummed if we don't get weasel soup.  i just hope Tywin leaves soon -- otherwise, we definitely won't get it, and she will probably escape him -- though to have people actively looking for her would be a pretty big deviation (i mean, outside the people who chase after her when she leaves and then Nymeria eats all of them--they didn't know she was arya, just someone who escaped and killed a guard).

then again, it seems like he has to leave in order for her to have a 3rd death that is meaningful, even if it isn't weasel soup -- not that that was particularly meaningful, truth be told -- but it was awesome -- because if he is still there (and is still being kind to her), then obviously the north won't be taking harrenhall -- and if he is still there, but turns on her, then she'd name him before she escaped.  so i don't know how they will have this play out.

i just keep hoping he leaves soon.  like episode 7.  even though i love their dynamic, i want weasel soup in some way shape or form.

[Zod]

Well, TV shows need to make characters likable, just like George R. R. Martin said.
They will probably deviate much from the books with Tywin's character in the episodes ahead.

I honestly believe that this change for Tywin is for the better, as it offers us new insight on the other side of Tywin, which makes him a far more believable figure.

[Fylimar]

Apart from the obvious psychopath (the Mountain, Ramsay and a few others), Martin described most characters in different shades of grey - Tywin is no exception to that - and I think, Dance brings only the side of Tywin to life, Tyrion never gets to see  - without loosing his cold and ruthless behavior (tbh - I thought, he would finish Lorch himself, when he started accusing him in that episode). I think, he is nice to Arya, because he suspects, that she isn't just a stonemasons daugther. I don't think, he knows, who she is, but that she could be a valuable hostage - so keeping her close and making her feel secure is a smart move, imho.