69 replies to this topic

[RSasoiaf]

Honey Badger, on 11 May 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

That's not it.  In the books, he wanted the peace with the Starks and to let Ned take the Black.  Stark and Baratheon out of King's Landing with Lannister control was just fine with him.  It was Joffrey's stupidity with the beheading that set everything off.  Joffrey was bad enough so that Tywin thought it was time for a "lesson," and Tyrion, despite himself, actually felt bad for Joff.

Tywin isn't a evil dictator looking to slaughter for fun.  Even the business with The Mountain raping and pillaging was just to draw Ned out so he could be captured.  But Jaime with his bravado confronted Ned and injured him, which is where Beric came in to take his place.  Tywin unfortunately doesn't have family members that does what he wants.

Nope, you are the one who want to believe on something that is not in the books.

You will have to quote where does Tywin says he would like to have Stark going to the wall. Where??? Actually, he never says that on the series also. Even on season one, he asks his son "Why is he still alive???".....so both book and series clearly state that Tywin does not care that much about Stark at the start.

Tywin only starts thinking on other options after he gets in a really bad place in bettween what could be the south and the north marching for Kings Landing. Still, as soon as the southern border is once again safe, Tywin gets back to his original idea and it´s bye bye to all the Starks he may get his hands on.

Also, you have to remember that it was actually Tywin who did start the war! It was not Cat, It was not even Jaime, it was Tywin! And I tell you why:
- Cat did something wrong but she was still not starting a full out war. Cat´s issue could have been solved bettween Tywin, Nedd and Robert, should they be willing to. Robert was quite willing and Nedd only jumps the gun after he gets news about The Mountain going all friendly on the riverlands.
- Jaime also did not start a full out war. Jaime did a move against Nedd but he run away when it did not work quite that well. Jaime was not really trying to start a war. Actually, Jaime only got involved on the war once his father ordered him to go and beat the crap out of Riverrun.

The only 2 leaders who actually called for a war were Tywin and Robb....and Tywin actually did it first by declaring full out war against the riverlands (without any reason for it by the way).
Actually, had Robb not called for his banners, it is most likely that Tywin would sweep through the riverlands and then try and march on the North.....he was actually marching that way when he found out that Robb was heading south. It is telling enough that Tywin was not even marching on the vale to get Tyrion back....nop!!! it was more or less obvious that he knew well enough that Lysa would stay neutral and therefore he wanted to get the Riverlands and the North as fast as possible...thus he split his forces bettween him and Jaime.

Now if this is someone who wants for peace.....he never actually did nothing to get it and you will have to point me to anything that Tywin actually did in order to get peace with someone. Did he actually do anything?

Keep in mind that even when Robb was no longer a threat and had to pretty much fall back, even then Tywin was not asking for peace. We know well enough what Tywin did and most likely will do in the series also. He will wipe out the Starks.

Now if that´s someone peacefull.....

[boojam]

JW., on 11 May 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

Funny, it seems they have made Cersei and Tywin more likeable and made Joffrey even worse. Main Antagonist, kind of thing.. maybe? I don't get it atleast, I miss the Tywin Ruthlessness from the books and Cersei who atleast would give Tyrion a fight in ACOK.

D&D have not made Joffrey any worse than Geroge made him in the novels.

[JW.]

boojam, on 12 May 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

D&D have not made Joffrey any worse than Geroge made him in the novels.

Oh, how about the scene with the two whores? And that thing where he is considering to wack his own mother,  I'm not sure, but it seems they sure have made him a full time 24/7 psychopath. In the books he atleast got along with some folks, sorta..

Edited by JW., 12 May 2012 - 10:53 AM.

[Chronicler]

I said Tywin would be the best actor on the series before it started, and during the first season. Points to me. He truly is great.

I'm kind of surprised that people here see Arya as intelligent, I've always seen her as stupid since she misunderstands things and assumes to much.

[The Monkey]

JW., on 12 May 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

Oh, how about the scene with the two whores? And that thing where he is considering to wack his own mother,  I'm not sure, but it seems they sure have made him a full time 24/7 psychopath. In the books he atleast got along with some folks, sorta..

Like whom?

[Lord Tywin]

With respect to using the Brave Companions, Lorch and Gregor in a campaign of terror, Tywin has three choices:

1) Use them to terrorize the countryside (obviously)

2) Ignore them and risk someone else taking them into their service (Bolton, of course, ends up doing just that with the Goat)

3) Execute them as criminals.

(3) Seems to be the most just course. But then, Ser Gregor & Ser Amory are landed knights, notwithstanding Eddard attainting Gregor. And Joffrey, whom Tywin sees as the rightful king, doesn't recognize that action. Since these monsters are acting on behalf of the Crown or of House Lannister, condemning them wouldn't make any sense. As for the Brave Companions, well, provoking them would be plain stupid. So that leaves him with options 1 & 2.

(2) Would be too risky.

Ergo, using them was Tywin's best course. That is not to say it isn't cruel, because it is. However, even in our own world pillaging, killing and destroying are hardly unknown throughout history. Two of England's favourite sons, Edward III & Henry V, used the dreaded chevauchee ("foraging") to strike fear in the hearts of the French, not to mention ruining their adversaries' supplies.

Is terrorizing the populace evil? Yes.

Does it make Tywin worse than the likes of the Greyjoy Bros., Aerys the Mad, Ramsay & Roose Bolton, Joffrey, the Dothraki hordes, or the slavers of Essos? Hardly.

I see Tywin as "the devil you know." As ruthless as he is, I'd rather have him in control of the country than a psychopath like the Bastard of Bolton or Joffrey.

[RSasoiaf]

Lord Tywin, on 12 May 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

With respect to using the Brave Companions, Lorch and Gregor in a campaign of terror, Tywin has three choices:

1) Use them to terrorize the countryside (obviously)

2) Ignore them and risk someone else taking them into their service (Bolton, of course, ends up doing just that with the Goat)

3) Execute them as criminals.

(3) Seems to be the most just course. But then, Ser Gregor & Ser Amory are landed knights, notwithstanding Eddard attainting Gregor. And Joffrey, whom Tywin sees as the rightful king, doesn't recognize that action. Since these monsters are acting on behalf of the Crown or of House Lannister, condemning them wouldn't make any sense. As for the Brave Companions, well, provoking them would be plain stupid. So that leaves him with options 1 & 2.

(2) Would be too risky.

Ergo, using them was Tywin's best course. That is not to say it isn't cruel, because it is. However, even in our own world pillaging, killing and destroying are hardly unknown throughout history. Two of England's favourite sons, Edward III & Henry V, used the dreaded chevauchee ("foraging") to strike fear in the hearts of the French, not to mention ruining their adversaries' supplies.

Is terrorizing the populace evil? Yes.

Does it make Tywin worse than the likes of the Greyjoy Bros., Aerys the Mad, Ramsay & Roose Bolton, Joffrey, the Dothraki hordes, or the slavers of Essos? Hardly.

I see Tywin as "the devil you know." As ruthless as he is, I'd rather have him in control of the country than a psychopath like the Bastard of Bolton or Joffrey.

There are a few flaws with this logic.

1 - Joffrey was not acting king in the books because he was still a children. Tywin was the actual ruller and Tyrion had this power in KL. The series changes this a bit but it seems that Tyrion still kind of overrules Joffrey so that means Tywin can do it also if he wants.

2 - Those guys may be knights and they may even have armies of their own. Still, if they would go against orders from their liege lord, they would be game for all other bannerman and I´m quite sure there would be people interested on having their castles and lands. You see, this is how Lords keep more or less control, they play with this idea that those who follow their orders get to kick someone else´s hass and have their lands. This was the kind of threat that kept the Bolton´s in check up north.

3 - Terrorizing enemy population is an act of war and is obviously used when you are in a state of open war against someone. The thing with Tywin doing it is not that he did it but that he did it first and he pretty much went way up with agression levels before anyone else had armies on the field. And this really undermines the Tywin as a peacemaker........

[The Monkey]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=TbwroS0YP54

Oh dear God...

[Nuncle Shagwell]

The Monkey, on 13 May 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=TbwroS0YP54

Oh dear God...

Why, he is a Lannister! They can dance if they want to, and dress real neat.
http://www.youtube.c...KfyTBII&ob=av2e

[jon rr stark]

I saw it last night and I think he does an excellent job filling in the character we dont see in the books. He has to have a terrible reputation, Arya is his chance to talk to someone and reveal perhaps another side to him as she in his eyes is not important, but admired her as she is also playing a role for a purpose. It shows the tightrope Ayra is walking and how Twyin likes to despence wisdom, its almost as if he is too clever by half and completly misses the prize right under his nose. Dance is full of barely concealed malevolent malace. He shows contempt for most of those around him which book Tywin also did. This comtempt is shown in the fear even his closest advisors have of him. I think Tv twyin depicts book twyin very well and adds the onscreen things the book cannot convey.