214 replies to this topic

[The Taupe Grace]

Apple Martini, on 07 May 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

He ordered the murders of Aegon and Rhaenys Targaryen.

On that point, I think he's not guilty. I can't remember the chapter, but at one point he in conversation to another character states that he never gave the order - but he never gave the order not to kill the children: it just never occurred to him. Obviously, having made the choice of employing the henchmen that he does, what came after could not be a complete surprise to him, but it was a glaring act of omission on his part, rather than willingly ordering the deaths of children. This doesn't redeem him, since he uses the dead children to gain favour with Robert, and that he simply never though about giving such detailed orders to those ravaging the castle, however he does seem to show some genuine regret (not remorse) that they died.

-- EDIT: -- (replies from BM and ABM)
apparently he did, it was Elia he forgot about. -- Although I was under the impression that there was little in the way of orders at all, and though Aegon may have been intentional, Rhaenys and Elia were oversights... maybe someone can provide me with a quote?
Well, the man's just a teensy bit more ruthless than I thought, but hey. He's still an awesome character.

Edited by The Taupe Grace, 07 May 2012 - 07:59 PM.

[Jamie Lannister]

He's the man behind Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch, and Vargo Hoat. They might be monsters on their own, but Tywin is the one who decides how much of their cruelty and evil he needs, and dispenses them to do their thing (rape, pillage, torture, burn, murder) quite coldly and methodologically.

He's one of my favourites either way, but that's kind of bad.

[David Selig]

Tysha and all those thousands of civilians murdered, raped and crippled in the Riverlands on his orders aren't a good enough reason for you?

The guy was a monster, best thing Tyrion ever did was kill him.

[bloodymime]

The Taupe Grace, on 07 May 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

On that point, I think he's not guilty. I can't remember the chapter, but at one point he in conversation to another character states that he never gave the order - but he never gave the order not to kill the children: it just never occurred to him. Obviously, having made the choice of employing the henchmen that he does, what came after could not be a complete surprise to him, but it was a glaring act of omission on his part, rather than willingly ordering the deaths of children. This doesn't redeem him, since he uses the dead children to gain favour with Robert, and that he simply never though about giving such detailed orders to those ravaging the castle, however he does seem to show some genuine regret (not remorse) that they died.

He orders the death of the children, not Elia.

[Awesome Oberyn Martell]

The Taupe Grace, on 07 May 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

On that point, I think he's not guilty. I can't remember the chapter, but at one point he in conversation to another character states that he never gave the order - but he never gave the order not to kill the children: it just never occurred to him. Obviously, having made the choice of employing the henchmen that he does, what came after could not be a complete surprise to him, but it was a glaring act of omission on his part, rather than willingly ordering the deaths of children. This doesn't redeem him, since he uses the dead children to gain favour with Robert, and that he simply never though about giving such detailed orders to those ravaging the castle, however he does seem to show some genuine regret (not remorse) that they died.

No, he says that he forgot about Elia but fully intended for the children to be killed.

[Pliskin]

You guys all forgot about the Reynes of Castamere...
And the Tarbecks...

Edited by Pliskin, 07 May 2012 - 07:57 PM.

[Chronicler]

David Selig, on 07 May 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Tysha and all those thousands of civilians murdered, raped and crippled in the Riverlands on his orders aren't a good enough reason for you?

The guy was a monster, best thing Tyrion ever did was kill him.

Thing is, that I think Tywin does it because he thinks it's justified. I think he believes that Joffrey is the real deal, and not a product of incest, hence those "traitors" are actually committing treasonous acts.
Then ofc one can argue how they are to be defeated sure. Vargo Hoat was only a sellsword he hired no? And Clegane is a lord in his service.....sure maybe the wrong people to send to war, but they are kind of all out aren't they?

[IronSuitor]

Pliskin, on 07 May 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

You guys all forgot about the Rains of Castamere...

Nah, screw the Reynes. Like I said, the ends justify the means, you can't have houses rebelling every time they see some weakness. In comparison to his other moral failings, its barely a blip.

[David Selig]

Chronicler, on 07 May 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

Thing is, that I think Tywin does it because he thinks it's justified. I think he believes that Joffrey is the real deal, and not a product of incest, hence those "traitors" are actually committing treasonous acts.
Then ofc one can argue how they are to be defeated sure. Vargo Hoat was only a sellsword he hired no? And Clegane is a lord in his service.....sure maybe the wrong people to send to war, but they are kind of all out aren't they?

So what? Who gives a damn if Tywin thinks it's justified? It's still monstrous and evil.

Vargo, Gregor and Amory are specifically picked because they are monsters and encouraged to commit the biggest atrocities possible, mostly against civilians. This is what makes Tywin much worse than the other lords and really evil.

Edited by David Selig, 07 May 2012 - 08:04 PM.

[Pliskin]

IronSuitor, on 07 May 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

Nah, screw the Reynes. Like I said, the ends justify the means, you can't have houses rebelling every time they see some weakness. In comparison to his other moral failings, its barely a blip.

So you burn down the entire house and people ?

You scare me, dude.
I suppose, Aegon's murder was necessary too, since they couldn't afford another claimant to the Iron Throne ?

[CMM19]

perhaps it is not what we do, but why we do it - Tyrion

i think this quote comes into play here alot with Tywin, instead of thinking of him as more of a bad guy i tend to think of him as simply ruthless, and willing to do anything to advance his house

thats what i thought at the beginning of the story, until AFFC when you really find out how brutal and evil he can be

[Hear Us Roar]

bloodymime, on 07 May 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

He melts down Ice because he's a greedy little merchant at heart grasping at everything he can get his sweaty little pig paws on without any respect for the honor or tradition of other Houses.

its just a sword.

[Hear Us Roar]

Pliskin, on 07 May 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

So you burn down the entire house and people ?

You scare me, dude.
I suppose, Aegon's murder was necessary too, since they couldn't afford another claimant to the Iron Throne?

i agree with him. Yes. What is the point in fighting a war when another one will pop up in a few years. You deal with problems when they are small. Kill one guy today and prevent millions dying tommorow.

Edited by Hear Us Roar, 07 May 2012 - 08:25 PM.

[IronSuitor]

Pliskin, on 07 May 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

So you burn down the entire house and people ?

You scare me, dude.
I suppose, Aegon's murder was necessary too, since they couldn't afford another claimant to the Iron Throne ?

And allowing them to live, only to face another equally bloody rebellion a few years down the line is better how? Tywin was able to end other potential rebellions bloodlessly simply because he dealt with his first one so ruthlessly.

Nothing is "necessary." I assume you meant justified. Given the twisted and inherently immoral realities of bloodline politics, very possibly.

[Pliskin]

IronSuitor, on 07 May 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

And allowing them to live, only to face another equally bloody rebellion a few years down the line is better how?

What did the children at Castamere or even the blacksmith there have to do with the rebellion ?

I understand that the Lord of Castamere had to be sentenced to death for treason... but eradicating the whole house ?
You can't be serious...

[IronSuitor]

Pliskin, on 07 May 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

What did the children at Castamere or even the blacksmith there have to do with the rebellion ?

I understand that the Lord of Castamere had to be sentenced to death for treason... but eradicating the whole house ?
You can't be serious...

We don't actually know the circumstances of the extermination of the rebellious houses. (Though the blacksmith is as much a military target as a man at arms.) Whatever happened, it was impressive enough that Tywin could put down future potential rebellions with the flute, not the sword.

[Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully]

Unleashing Gregor Clegane, Vargo Hoat &Co and Ser Amory Lorch to ravage the Riverlands is already absolutely damning.

If you must look further:

The Tysha Situation...

The numerous 'you're not my son' and all...

Red Wedding (better than having the war go on, sure... except Lannister men-at-arms continued to burn down the Riverlands, killing and raping & all regardless of it)

Elia Martell and her sons (well, Clegane again)

Etc.

And yet... in a way, he was The Boss.

[Castel]

Pliskin, on 07 May 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

What did the children at Castamere or even the blacksmith there have to do with the rebellion ?

I understand that the Lord of Castamere had to be sentenced to death for treason... but eradicating the whole house ?
You can't be serious...

The males in general go to war. It's quite possible he killed off all the male Reynes and as a result their house died out. Hell, it's quite possible they had a situation similar to the one with the Blackfyre pretenders or the House of Arryn, they've been hit hard all of a sudden and there simply aren't that many of them. Him wiping them out would be more plausible then, I doubt he lined everyone up by the river and chopped off their heads, for any castle, that's a lot of heads.

Or alternatively, they refused to give in, he stormed the castle and put everyone noble that wasn't there by marriage to the sword. *Shrugs* We never hear about him killing commoners though. It's just as possible that they were run out. Then again, they could have been given to men like Hoat.

Edited by Castel, 07 May 2012 - 09:32 PM.

[BondJamesBond]

Tywin is on par with with Stalin.  Seriously.

[BlueHighwind]

Why is Tywin a bad person?  Let me count the ways:

1. He's horrible to Tyrion, I mean utterly monsterous.
2. Tywin is ruthless, cold, and manipulative, and willing to do whatever it takes to win his war, no matter what.
3. He commanders monsters like Gregor, Lorch, the Brave Companions, and countless other torturers, rapists, and killers.
4. I'm pretty sure he orchestrated the Red Wedding.
5. Theory here:  He probably killed his grandson Joffrey.
6. Tywin cares for nothing other than his own family's honor.  And even then, he doesn't seem to particularly like anybody.  He'll destroy the entire world for the Lannister name, even when he doesn't love any of his children.