214 replies to this topic

[Kozma]

He was OK, compare to the mad-king. Plus he shat the gold and everyone was jealous of that.

[Howling Mad]

• He unleashes the Mountain on the Riverlands
  
• He knows where whores go
  
• He sat out Robert's Rebellion until the deal was done (choose a side!)
  
• He unleashed the Mountain on the Red Keep
  
• He's not Ned Stark

[SerMixalot]

he ordered the sack of KL

everyone always forgets the little people

[Prince of Dragonstone]

He let loose his "wild dogs" Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch on the smallfolk of the Riverlands for no other reason but to incite fear into their hearts and minds.

He organized the gang-rape of an innocent crofter's daughter, to teach Tyrion a "lesson". What that lesson was, I'll never truly figure out. Was it because she was too low-born? Or was it because she made Tyrion truly happy? Either way, Tywin was a major asshole to do it.

He banished his father's mistress and made her walk the streets of Lannisport stark naked, crying and shaking the whole way. I understand banishing the mistress, as she did take advantage of Tytos, but to sexually degrade her in that way was cruel.

He orchestrated an act that, in Westeros, is beyond redemption. Breaking Guest's Right is like kinslaying. An unforgivable sin.

He destroyed his children's lives. He mentally abused Tyrion, he treated Cersei like she was chattel to be sold to the highest bidder and he disinherited Jaime when he no longer lived up to his perfect ideal of what the Heir to Casterly Rock should be, even though Jaime never wanted it in the first place.

I actually love the character of Tywin and even moreso in the TV show, but I can never say that he was anything less than a villain in this series.

[Sphinx The Riddle]

the red wedding is pretty much enough for me

[Milcov]

BlueHighwind, on 07 May 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

Why is Tywin a bad person?  Let me count the ways:

1. He's horrible to Tyrion, I mean utterly monsterous.
2. Tywin is ruthless, cold, and manipulative, and willing to do whatever it takes to win his war, no matter what.
3. He commanders monsters like Gregor, Lorch, the Brave Companions, and countless other torturers, rapists, and killers.
4. I'm pretty sure he orchestrated the Red Wedding.
5. Theory here:  He probably killed his grandson Joffrey.
6. Tywin cares for nothing other than his own family's honor.  And even then, he doesn't seem to particularly like anybody.  He'll destroy the entire world for the Lannister name, even when he doesn't love any of his children.

3. While Tywin commanded Gregor and the others he isn't fully responsible for their atrocities, particularly Elia.
4. Once again it depended on others as well, mainly Roose and the Freys
5. No, that was Littlefinger and the Queen of Thorns

[Per128]

Tywin manages not to come off as the stereotypical badguy. He doesn't laugh manically, eat babies, or indulge in perverse practices such as the Bastard of Bolton does.

However, he is entirely ruthless and will do anything and allow anything to be done to get his will. There's countless tellings of village people and the like who suffer because he's making a strategic move, trying to lure Ned out of KL, etc... I can't recall him ever having qualms or exercise restraint.

So, Lord Tywin certainly carries out "evil", he just doesn't do any of it for fun and entertainment. But then again he hasn't been a lot of fun following his wife's death...

[Kittyhat]

Some of the posts defending the man in this thread honestly rather frighten me with respect to the general moral character of the people who can find it in themselves to write them.

"Oh, he wasn't bad, just a little ruthless."  WTF?!! Are you mad? Rape, abuse, the knowing use of a mass-murdering monster, ordering mass murder himself ... what does he have to do to be evil in your minds? Personally torture to death every living being on the planet?!!

Makes me wonder what some people would really do (and justify to themselves in their own minds!) if only given half the chance.  It really, really does ...

[Jon Flowers]

For me, it's his willingness to order the wholesale slaughter of innocents.  Even though the Red Wedding was very very bad, the rape of the Riverlands, during the lead in to the War of the Five Kings and the sack of King's Landing during the War of the Usurper were war crimes by any standard.  Add that to the list of his personal crimes and I dare say he crosses the threshold of being a "bad guy".  In fact, I would think that it would take some serious moral gymnastics to consider him to be anything short of that.

[Grumpy Midget]

Talk about double standards.  Stark men were just as responsible for the rape and pillage in the Riverlands as Lannister men.  Yet everyone outside of the Brotherhood w/o Banners conveniently ignore that fact.  And where do you draw the line when blaming Tywin for the actions of Clegane?  Should Ned Stark be blamed because Umbers and Boltons still claimed the lord's 'right' on a peasant woman's wedding night?  Reminds me of a quote from Glen Cook's Black Company Novels - "There are no self-proclaimed villains, only regiments of self-proclaimed saints."

[lostinwesteros]

Apple Martini, on 07 May 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

He ordered the murders of Aegon and Rhaenys Targaryen. He treated his son like dirt and allowed that son's wife to be gang-raped. He put such impossible expectations on the two children he did allegedly like that both of them seem warped, although Jaime has promise. He specifically ordered Gregor Clegane and others to destroy the Riverlands, causing untold death and destruction. He abetted the kangaroo trial of his son and, I believe, would have gone through with that son's execution. When he couldn't defeat Robb Stark in the field, he cowardly let others do the dirty work for him, an act that's considered an abomination across the entire country.

But yeah. Nice guy, gets a bad rap.

  He also put Tyrion and his 'mountain men' in the vanguard of the battle, no doubt hoping Tyrion would be killed.

[Errant Bard]

Grumpy Midget, on 07 May 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

Talk about double standards.

No. Nobody here claimed the Starks were saints. Find another argument.

The implied binary model bad guy/saint doesn't make sense, either.

[etu]

Because he is completely amoral and cares only about his House - not even the members of it, but the House as a whole. And his House stands four-square on the side of dickitude in most ways.

[Grumpy Midget]

Errant Bard, on 08 May 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

No. Nobody here claimed the Starks were saints. Find another argument.

The implied binary model bad guy/saint doesn't make sense, either.

What exactly is the point of your post?

[Winterfell is Burning]

Grumpy Midget, on 07 May 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

Talk about double standards.  Stark men were just as responsible for the rape and pillage in the Riverlands as Lannister men.  Yet everyone outside of the Brotherhood w/o Banners conveniently ignore that fact.  And where do you draw the line when blaming Tywin for the actions of Clegane?  Should Ned Stark be blamed because Umbers and Boltons still claimed the lord's 'right' on a peasant woman's wedding night?  Reminds me of a quote from Glen Cook's Black Company Novels - "There are no self-proclaimed villains, only regiments of self-proclaimed saints."

Bolton's men were the ones doing the rape and pillage.

And why does Roose cuts the tongue of the brother of Ramsay's mother? Because he didn't wanted him to tell Rickard Stark, meaning if he knew what was done, Bolton would have been punished. Or are you forgetting that Ned wanted the head of Jorah, a better men, for arguably less?

Apple Martini, on 07 May 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

He ordered the murders of Aegon and Rhaenys Targaryen. He treated his son like dirt and allowed that son's wife to be gang-raped. He put such impossible expectations on the two children he did allegedly like that both of them seem warped, although Jaime has promise. He specifically ordered Gregor Clegane and others to destroy the Riverlands, causing untold death and destruction. He abetted the kangaroo trial of his son and, I believe, would have gone through with that son's execution. When he couldn't defeat Robb Stark in the field, he cowardly let others do the dirty work for him, an act that's considered an abomination across the entire country.

But yeah. Nice guy, gets a bad rap.

And some people think Tywin is not a bad guy, but put Stannis on a par with Ramsay Snow. Frankly, there are some fans here I hope I never, ever meet in real life, for they must be a scary bunch.

Edited by Winterfell is Burning, 08 May 2012 - 12:52 AM.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Grumpy Midget, on 07 May 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

Talk about double standards.  Stark men were just as responsible for the rape and pillage in the Riverlands as Lannister men.  Yet everyone outside of the Brotherhood w/o Banners conveniently ignore that fact.  And where do you draw the line when blaming Tywin for the actions of Clegane?  Should Ned Stark be blamed because Umbers and Boltons still claimed the lord's 'right' on a peasant woman's wedding night?  Reminds me of a quote from Glen Cook's Black Company Novels - "There are no self-proclaimed villains, only regiments of self-proclaimed saints."

Bolton's men were the ones doing the rape and pillage.

And why does Roose cuts the throat of the brother of Ramsay's mother? Because he didn't wanted him to tell Rickard Stark, meaning if he knew Bolton would have been punished. Or are you forgetting that Ned wanted the head of Jorah, a better men, for less?

Apple Martini, on 07 May 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

He ordered the murders of Aegon and Rhaenys Targaryen. He treated his son like dirt and allowed that son's wife to be gang-raped. He put such impossible expectations on the two children he did allegedly like that both of them seem warped, although Jaime has promise. He specifically ordered Gregor Clegane and others to destroy the Riverlands, causing untold death and destruction. He abetted the kangaroo trial of his son and, I believe, would have gone through with that son's execution. When he couldn't defeat Robb Stark in the field, he cowardly let others do the dirty work for him, an act that's considered an abomination across the entire country.

But yeah. Nice guy, gets a bad rap.

And some people think Tywin is not a bad guy, but put Stannis on a par with Ramsay Snow. Frankly, there are some fans here I hope I never, ever meet in real life, for they must be a scary bunch.

[jblair]

Lol, the Starks are apparently absolved of responsibility their bannermen but the Lannister absorb all of the sins of theirs.

Some of the other crimes are a bit dubious as well, considering the context of Westeros: selling Cersei to the highest bidder? And this makes Tywin different from the other lords in what way exactly? Cutesy 21st century notions of omg-love-flowers-joy-marriage don't really apply in Westeros.

And as far as the Riverlands rampaging...it's WAR. It always sucks for the people unfortunate enough to be caught in the middle of it. Nothing seems particularly out of the ordinary there, even compared to our own world (*cough* Balkans *cough* Indochina *cough*).

But the rest of that stuff? Yeah, pretty horrible.

Tywin seems to lack the actual enjoyment of suffering that Ramsay, Vargo, Euron, etc seem to have. I'm not saying he's by any means a good person, but I think I would say the defining characteristic of Tywin is that he takes pragmatism to a seemingly inhuman level. Then again maybe that's only our collective willful blindness talking; Tywin shrugging his shoulders at deaths of Riverlands civillians isn't really different than what leaders on all sides had to do in WW2 when ordering civilian-annihilating carpet bombing of cities. And it's not like America hasn't ordered plenty of political assassinations when the need suited us. Ruling sure is complicated.

[Grumpy Midget]

Winterfell is Burning, on 08 May 2012 - 12:51 AM, said:

Bolton's men were the ones doing the rape and pillage.

And why does Roose cuts the throat of the brother of Ramsay's mother? Because he didn't wanted him to tell Rickard Stark, meaning if he knew Bolton would have been punished. Or are you forgetting that Ned wanted the head of Jorah, a better men, for less?



And some people think Tywin is not a bad guy, but put Stannis on a par with Ramsay Snow. Frankly, there are some fans here I hope I never, ever meet in real life, for they must be a scary bunch.

So it's ok for Tywin to be blamed for Clegane raping and pillaging, But Robb gets off scotch free for Bolton raping and pillaging?  And I see how you conveniently left out the Umbers, 'well see the Greatjon's a "good guy" so all those rumors about hims talking peasant brides to bed on their wedding night must be lies and slander.'

And no, Tywin is not a bad guy, because there are no such things as "good guys" and "bad guys".  It all depends on perspective.  To his brother Kevan he's a man who was loyal to his family worked tirelessly to restore the family fortune.  To Tyrion he was a asshole father who had his one wife gang-raped and fucked his whore.  To the people living in Aerys' time he was a Hand who gave them 20 years of peace and stability in spite of a madman on the throne.  To the people in King's Landing he was the one responsible for the sack of their city.

Like all of GRRM's characters, Tywin cannot be characterized by "good" or "bad".  He, like any other person, has his virtues and his flaws.  What angers me is the fact that so many readers are so eager to jump on the moral high horse and pass judgement from on high.

[Wlerin]

Um... What's this about comparing the Boltons and Umbers to Clegane/Hoat/Lorch? Do you not understand the difference between lords (with loyal subjects and bannermen of their own) and lesser knights? Robb Stark can't just cast off Roose Bolton, nor interfere with Bolton's men, even if he was aware of what he was doing--well, he can, but not as easily as Tywin could chastise or even execute these "knights" and sellswords for whose behavior he is being blamed.

Robb Stark put up with Roose Bolton because he had little choice. Tywin Lannister had plenty of choice.


edit: Clegane has lands, but his family is not nearly as critical to the Lannisters as are the Boltons or Umbers to the Starks. Tywin's father made house Clegane. Gregor is entirely within his power.

Edited by Wlerin, 08 May 2012 - 01:38 AM.

[Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully]

Umm... Bolton is arguably not your average Stark bannerman. He was actively disloyal, not following orders and all, so I wouldn't pin his crimes on the King Who Lost the North.

Tywin ORDERS his bannermen to murder, rape and pillage, and has no qualms in admitting it. (IE, he's The Boss, in a bloody twisted way)

Though the details of Robb's campaign in the Westerlands are never specified... Yet I suppose it must have been cleaner than the Lannister invasion of the Riverlands.

Edited by Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully, 08 May 2012 - 01:32 AM.