175 replies to this topic

[gryphon strike]

Lets stick with the best case scenario Coco and if there is evidence of nefarious reasons then people can be charged, we hope so at least but the banking fiasco does not exactly inspire hope.
Thank you ixodes for that interesting case, I would love to say expediency but I have to think that there is someone out there with weapons grade anthrax.
Something I would think the FBI would be incredibly keen to get thier hands on. So is it incompetence or something nefarious?

Oh and I am still waiting for some sort of proof to be presented from those who keep claiming that the case is overwhelming against Bin Laden in re to 9/11.
So far the only one to attempt it was RiL and while a nice attempt it failed to list which agency was the source of the intelligence. Someone want to make another attempt? Because if that is the best you have got then it is not proof and your deluding yourselves. I am happy to see proof in fact if you can present something that makes sense I would be ecstatic since it would remove some hidden reason being behind it.

Since we are dealing in speculation here this is a reason I have trouble with the story presented to us.
A major problem I have about Osama being the reason is that the Taliban offered to hand him over to an international court and it was refused. Bush insisted he be handed over to a military tribunal who would function as judge and jury. This was neither a legal or reasonable request and the civilised action taken in this situation was that of the Taliban. Yeah great isn't it the USA was acting like the big bully and even got all his mates in to beat up the one offering to do the right thing.
And Robin wonders why I will never trust the CIA or US military intelligence.

This does get me rather angry because the Country that professes to be the bastion of freedom and fair play etc ( and is regarded as that by millions if not billions around the world ) has just failed, ever single section of it's gov that should have stood up and said no FAILED even the majority of it's people failed since we can see here they are spouting the gov line almost 11 years later. Smart people who would rather accept the Gov line than ask questions and I keep asking why is it so?
I think that subconsciously they know they have failed and cannot face it and that is the reason they keep spouting Gov lies as the truth. Gods but I hope I am wrong and there is actual evidence out there.

[Lord O' Bones]

Raidne, on 10 May 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

Gryph, nobody wants to fight a land war in Asia. I guarantee you, if we pinned 9/11 on someone, it would have been Iraq, Iran, or somebody else with oil.

/ 9/11 thread derailment

As far as the threads' original subject Gryph is making a valid argument. Just because he can stylistically seem to be drunk on paranoia sauce doesn't change this.

[gryphon strike]

What is paranoid about asking for something that actually makes sense?

I mean come on would you trust something a proven liar tells you?
All I am asking for is clear cut verification from a reputable source, I have never seen it. I would love to see it, but nobody seems capable of providing it.


For the record I have also gone looking and never found it, I am hoping someone on this board has better research skills than I do ( not that hard ) and can provide what I cannot.

[Ser Robin Hill]

gryphon strike, on 11 May 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Since we are dealing in speculation here this is a reason I have trouble with the story presented to us.
A major problem I have about Osama being the reason is that the Taliban offered to hand him over to an international court and it was refused. Bush insisted he be handed over to a military tribunal who would function as judge and jury. This was neither a legal or reasonable request and the civilised action taken in this situation was that of the Taliban. Yeah great isn't it the USA was acting like the big bully and even got all his mates in to beat up the one offering to do the right thing.
And Robin wonders why I will never trust the CIA or US military intelligence.

This does get me rather angry because the Country that professes to be the bastion of freedom and fair play etc ( and is regarded as that by millions if not billions around the world ) has just failed, ever single section of it's gov that should have stood up and said no FAILED even the majority of it's people failed since we can see here they are spouting the gov line almost 11 years later. Smart people who would rather accept the Gov line than ask questions and I keep asking why is it so?
I think that subconsciously they know they have failed and cannot face it and that is the reason they keep spouting Gov lies as the truth. Gods but I hope I am wrong and there is actual evidence out there.

Do you seriously think that nations survive by "playing nice"?  The "government line", as you call it is to further the interests of the nation.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Governments do not conform to your idealistic view of right and wrong, nor should they.  Governments are there to achieve the best results they can for the nation they govern.

[Lord O' Bones]

gryphon strike, on 12 May 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

What is paranoid about asking for something that actually makes sense?

Nothing. Just the way you are going about it makes it seem that way. I mean, I just said exactly this in the post you replied to.

Quote

I mean come on would you trust something a proven liar tells you?
All I am asking for is clear cut verification from a reputable source, I have never seen it. I would love to see it, but nobody seems capable of providing it.

Anyone capable of providing it cannot do so. By design. Sucks for you, but there it is. Doesn't mean the verification doesn't exist.

[gryphon strike]

Granted LoB and if it does exist then why not present it?
And maybe it does suck for me but it sucks more for those who are willing to beleive something with no evidence to support it. Do they also beleive in fairies at the bottom of their garden?

[Lord O' Bones]

gryphon strike, on 12 May 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

Granted LoB and if it does exist then why not present it?

Good gravy, man. They can't present it because they think they know what they did was right yet it cannot be disclosed as to ruin future endeavors and/or they swore an oath not to and/or they know they know only enough of the story to hurt themselves and/or their country and/or they know serious consequences will be laid upon them if they do so and/or they are simply automatons and can do nothing else. Or any combination of the above.

Faeries in the garden? I would think you of people here wouldn't bring that up, my friend.

[paddington]

Well on the subject of underpant bomber, read this yesterday in the Guardian.

http://www.guardian....t-mi6-cia-leaks

[gryphon strike]

Well I may be a Pagan priest but I am also a skeptic on a large scale, I have seen lots of people claim things that they cannot back up. I have seen a rare few who can back up everything they claim.

Back to the points at hand yes I agree with what you are saying re individuals especially in commonwealth countries since they tend to sign an official secrets act which if breached means you get 20 yrs in Gaol before you get a trial.
This doesn't mean the gov's themselves cannot make available the intelligence source. For example the link provided by RiL would have been regard as evidence by me if they had cited MI5 as the intelligence source. They didn't, which makes me suspect they are using intelligence they know is unreliable from an unreliable source.
Thus while the evidence may exist it is still a case of without it there is no proof despite the claims made.

[gryphon strike]

Paddington that is very interesting, so it was a Saudi agent rather than a CIA agent and there was no option but to reveal the plot, well not to the world but hey they couldn't go through with it either.

[paddington]

Also from what I've sort half being paying attention to on the news.  The bomb itself is pretty sophisticated, with no metalic parts and a chemical detonater.  Pretty hard to detect short of getting your balls patted.

[gryphon strike]

so some sort of binary explosive for the detonator?

The rest just needs to be uncommon enough as an explosive to avoid detection and of course be capable of being made into clothing or impregnated into clothing.
making a small detonator without metal is pretty hard though.

[gryphon strike]

Robin Hill, on 12 May 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

Do you seriously think that nations survive by "playing nice"?  The "government line", as you call it is to further the interests of the nation.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Governments do not conform to your idealistic view of right and wrong, nor should they.  Governments are there to achieve the best results they can for the nation they govern.

You do realise what you have just said about your own country don't you?
Essentially you have said it is untrustworthy and without even a semblance of honour.
Now what you don't seem to understand Robin is that by asking these questions and insisting on real proof that is how you make certain it is the nations best interests being looked after rather than ohh maybe some oil companies?

[TheRaggedWildling]

GS: We haven't gotten any oil out of Iraq. The fields were turned over to Iraq almost as soon as a coalition government was formed. As a matter of fact, they (Iraq) are now auctioning off their oil fields, and the US hasn't snapped up any of the contracts.

And, no. I would rather have my government act according to the best interests of my nation than any sort of supposed morality. Of course, we should support our allies and defend the basic liberties (human rights, civil liberties, you know, the works. Coincidentally, I am vehemently against the Patriot Act.), but realpolitk trumps "being nice to others" almost always in my book.

[Ser Robin Hill]

GS,

Are you naive enough to think any nation acts with honor?  National interests sometimes conflict with other entities and sometimes are the same.  You mentioned oil companies.  Oil is a finite resource some have it all want it.  It is the national interest to do what is necessary to procure as much as possible for our own use...by fair means or foul.   When people begin to run out of such things, they don't give a damn how it is obtained.  There was a very good movie called, Three Days of the Condor that dealt with such a subject.  Survival trumps idealism every time.

Edited by Robin Hill, 12 May 2012 - 02:53 PM.

[gryphon strike]

TheRaggedWildling, on 12 May 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

GS: We haven't gotten any oil out of Iraq. The fields were turned over to Iraq almost as soon as a coalition government was formed. As a matter of fact, they (Iraq) are now auctioning off their oil fields, and the US hasn't snapped up any of the contracts.

And, no. I would rather have my government act according to the best interests of my nation than any sort of supposed morality. Of course, we should support our allies and defend the basic liberties (human rights, civil liberties, you know, the works. Coincidentally, I am vehemently against the Patriot Act.), but realpolitk trumps "being nice to others" almost always in my book.

You are joking aren't you?
less than a year after the conquest the known reserves were being farmed out to US oil interests. What is currently being auctioned is quite possibly the unknown reserves of western Iraq.

Robin you need to read everything I said, you have yet to make a case for how bankrupting the US was in the best interests of the country.