Black Crow, on 14 May 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:
As to the Watch, changing subject a little, I'm reminded of this passage where Jaimie is learning about the Rysewells and the Brackens:
“Five hundred years before the Andals. A thousand, if the True History is to be believed. Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some maesters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend.”
And yet there are some out there who insist that the Watch goes back to the Long Night when Bran the Builder built the Wall (or not, according to GRRM) with all their Lord Commanders dutifully recorded except one. Institutions, including regiments, create their own legends.
Bear with me (as ever) A simple and for our purposes quite good example is the Scots Guards, who were actually raised in 1661 but insist that their true origin was in 1642 - 20 years earlier. This claim is based on an interesting chain of events.
Between 1639 and 1660 there were a series of wars(with intervals) in the three kingdoms of Britain collectively known as the Great Rebellion or the English Civil War. In very simple terms his was primarily a struggle between a would-be absolutist monarchy and a would-be democracy, complicated by a parallel religious war between Catholics and Protestants. In October 1641 a Catholic rebellion broke out in Ireland and a couple of months later King Charles I authorised the raising of a number of Scottish regiments to go deal with it. Later that year the English Civil War began, the Scots Protestants intervened to help defeat the King and to cut a long story short in 1649 the survivors of those regiments came home and were formed into what were called the Irish Companies. King Charles I had been executed by that time and his son came to Scotland as Charles II in the following year. His return was opposed by the hard-line Protestants and so the Irish companies were assigned as a guard - in the sense of gaolers, to prevent any attempt by Charles to rally personal support. If he was to be formally crowned it would be on the Protestants' reluctant terms. Exactly what happened to this guard in the end is uncertain but they appear to have been destroyed at the battle of Worcester in 1651 and therefore had no connection at all with the Scottish Regiment of Foot Guards raised in 1661 following the Restoration.
Now the point of this story is that not only do the Scots Guards claim an earlier origin than is the case, but they base it on not one but several organisations which not only had no connection with the 1661 unit, and which were to all intents and purposes on the other side, ie: against the King - exactly as we've been considering in relation to the Watch, ie; that they're not as old as they claim, and until the overthrow of the Night's King they were effectively "on the other side", owing allegiance not the the Red lot (as their oath implies) but to the Winter Court of the Sidhe.
Nice story about the Scots' guard. It seems to me that every institution will tend to exaggerate its age. The passage you cite from the young Blackwood encourages us to adopt the methods of historians for reconstituting ancient past: doubt single sources (old Nan is an exception, of course), and believe in redundant information. I have tried to make archaeology speak in the Stone vs Wood thread. I believe there is some significance in the different types of stairs (ice for the Nightfort, gravel or wood or stone for the other castles) that lead to the top of the Wall.
Concerning the history of the Watch. It seems that an important transition took place relatively recently. At the time of the Conquest, the Watch was composed of ten thousands brothers, and had its main seat at the Nightfort. Visibly big changes happened in the north when King Jaehaerys, Queen Alysanne, half the court and six dragons came to Winterfell (and perhaps Septon Barth as well): notably, the first night was abolished. This is precisely when the Nightfort was abandoned, at the insistence of Queen Alysanne, supposedly because the place was too decrepit (but we see now that the Watch can restore it for Stannis in a year).
I rather suspect that while the north had to abandon certain savage practices, the Night's Watch had to reform itself as well. One thing I find creepy is the comparison between Harrenhal and the Nightfort (both are mentioned by old Nan, and have been built with blood in the mortar, moreover Harren the Black was the brother of the Lord Commander of the time). One little detail in the description of the Nightfort made me think of Harrenhal: the presence of bathhouses. The bathhouse of Harrenhal played of role in the bad reputation of the place, with the story of mad Lady Lothstone bathing in blood when her House ruled Harrenhal.
So I wonder what practices of the Night's Watch had to be abandoned during Jaehaerys' reign. Here is the description of the Nightfort
Quote
They spent half the day poking through the castle. Some of the towers had fallen down and others looked unsafe, but they climbed the bell tower (the bells were gone) and the rookery (the birds were gone). Beneath the brewhouse they found a vault of huge oaken casks that boomed hollowly when Hodor knocked on them. They found a library (the shelves and bins had collapsed, the books were gone, and rats were everywhere). They found a dank and dim-lit dungeon with cells enough to hold five hundred captives, but when Bran grabbed hold of one of the rusted bars it broke off in his hand. Only one crumbling wall remained of the great hall, the bathhouse seemed to be sinking into the ground, and a huge thornbush had conquered the practice yard outside the armory where black brothers had once labored with spear and shield and sword. The armory and the forge still stood, however, though cobwebs, rats, and dust had taken the places of blades, bellows, and anvil. Sometimes Summer would hear sounds that Bran seemed deaf to, or bare his teeth at nothing, the fur on the back of his neck bristling . . . but the Rat Cook never put in an appearance, nor the seventy-nine sentinels, nor Mad Axe. Bran was much relieved. Maybe it is only a ruined empty castle.
Details possibly of interest in bold.
Edited by Bran Vras, 14 May 2012 - 10:54 AM.
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because of this Jon is more of a Northman than Ned's children with Catelyn, i.e. she would always fear that Ned could favor Jon over Robb c) from an OOU point of view Jon is ice and Dany fire.
But since it wasn't GRRM doing the translations (mostly plural), I don't think we can put much faith in that, rather then there's a lot of Literature/Language students/graduates (intelligent people! 
) thinking that it was important to leave like the original.
) the Heresy threads... Or trying to, anyways... And someone somewhere pointed that the Wall, could be a frozen attempt of the Hammer of Water (I think it was Black Crow who said that Moat Cailin was also a Hammer of Water failed attempt). So maybe another wall at MC? Catching up with the Heresy threads is almost as frustrating at the things we do not know yet of the books!! It won't kill you to make the same awesome summary you did at Heresy 6, you know! 
