392 replies to this topic

[Black Crow]

bbqq, on 24 May 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

You guys have probably been over this (and I'm not sure it's entirely on topic, due to the fact I'm never entirely sure what you guys are talking about), but I thought it was worth a mention:

In Davos' chapter when he is imprisoned in the Wolf's Den, his gaoler mentions a Brandon Stark who travelled south during a long winter, performed what appears to be a bunch of ritual sacrifies, and was nicknamed 'Ice Eyes'. What did you guys think of this? It seemed to me incredibly similiar to the ideas held in Westeros about the Others.

The icy blue eyes have indeed been noted (by heretics at least) and are at the very least consistent with theories of a Stark connection to the Others/Sidhe. This thread hasn't got long to go, but we'll do some roundups of current thinking at the beginning of Heresy 12

[Tyryan Lannister]

First time posting in heresy, relatively new to the forums, and there's A LOT to read through, so please forgive me if this has been discussed to death already (and it is a little off topic from the Sidhe conversation):

Could Bran the Builder and AA be the same person?  It is said that Bran built Winterfell and the Wall.  Well, what if he didn't actually "build" Wfell or the Wall, but the people thereof?

One of the things that the Crows say upon taking their vows are that they are the sword that brings the dawn or something like that.  Well, what if 1) Bran "built" Winterfell through establishing his heirs (the Starks) as King of the North (if not King of Westoros) and, upon seeing (from his perspective) the threat of the others, he lead an army north to fight them.  They fought two mini-wars within the larger war, and the Sidhe were victorious in each of those (the two failed attempts to build Lightbringer).  Then he realized why they had failed: they were too mentally caught up with their wives and families, but particularly their wives.  So he did the only thing he could think off to clear his mind: he sacrificed his wife so that he could clear his mind of keeping her safe and instead focus on defeating his enemies.  this time he did, and him and his army decided to stay "enfranchised" and eventually became known as the Night's Watch.  Maybe the war got started because of what the Night's King was doing... or maybe Bran himself brought his wife back to life and he became the night's king?  That's just a little extra there, but who knows.

But to simplify:  Bran the Builder is AA; he "built" Winterfell through establishing the Stark dynasty (and through some magic something is why a Stark must always be in Winterfell--need to keep his blood there); he had to sacrifice his wife to create Lightbringer, which is the "sword" that is now known as the Night's Watch; he possibly (and I would say probably) had some sort of connection with the Night's King; his "building" of the wall was also the creating of the Night's Watch, though it is possible that one of the first acts of the watch was to create a physical barrier, and so he would have actually built the wall as well, much as, through establishing a dynasty in the north, he still would have actually built the castle where they lived.

As I said, a little off topic here, but just something that's been mulling in my head for a while, and I've finally found an adequate place to discuss it

Edit: spelling

Edited by Tyryan Lannister, 25 May 2012 - 02:01 AM.

[Ser Squirrelly]

The above comments bring a thought to mind…

The Night’s Watch oath: I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children.

Characters make fun of it throughout the series.  The senselessness of it.  Why a vow of chastity would somehow make better fighters.

Then consider Craster, giving away his male babies.

Maybe the oath was created because the Others somehow need these babies, not just for food or ritual sacrifice, but something larger.  Maybe the babies’ existence is crucial to the Others' existence.  The Night's Watch oath, then, can be viewed as a form of oral contraception used to keep potential armaments out of the hands of the enemy.

And now suddenly all these babies showing up at the Wall…

[Uncat]

Ser Squirrelly, on 25 May 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

The above comments bring a thought to mind…

The Night’s Watch oath: I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children.

Characters make fun of it throughout the series.  The senselessness of it.  Why a vow of chastity would somehow make better fighters.

Then consider Craster, giving away his male babies.

Maybe the oath was created because the Others somehow need these babies, not just for food or ritual sacrifice, but something larger.  Maybe the babies’ existence is crucial to the Others' existence.  The Night's Watch oath, then, can be viewed as a form of oral contraception used to keep potential armaments out of the hands of the enemy.

And now suddenly all these babies showing up at the Wall…

Interesting thought. Though in the context it seems to be rather an oath of devotion - no lands, no titles, no heirs. Nothing that distracts.

That brings another question back to my mind. What the heck did they need ten thousend devoted fighters for? This is the strengh we are told they had only a few centuries ago. After all, the WW imposed no threat for millenia. What did all those able men do there?

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Uncat, on 25 May 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

Interesting thought. Though in the context it seems to be rather an oath of devotion - no lands, no titles, no heirs. Nothing that distracts.

That brings another question back to my mind. What the heck did they need ten thousend devoted fighters for? This is the strengh we are told they had only a few centuries ago. After all, the WW imposed no threat for millenia. What did all those able men do there?

Looking out for Grumkins and Snarks of course! The real question is how did Maester Aemon know that shit was about to pop off?
Before I step into this essey i'm planning on writing, I got more questions

-The WW have not been spotted since the last long winter? And before that since the days of Heroes where history turnes to folklore?
-When was the last king of Winter? Did the transition from Winter to the North happen simultaneously? Were they always Starks?
- The Wall defends itself. So was it always manned? Could the children have once upon a time been brothers?
-Coldhands made Sam promise not to speak of anything that happend. I understand the don't talk about the magic hole in the wall, but not-dead brother Bran? Obviously Jon would run to his brother to keep him safe and would then come into contact with the children. So why is that so off limits? If the Children and the Nights Watch are friends then how come The Lord Commander of the Wall can't speak to bloodraven?

P.S. It's funny that Dany will unite every khall if her objective is to be the destruction of grass. Reminds me of The Anti-Christ and on how he will come to power through christians

[alienarea]

Ser Squirrelly, on 25 May 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

snip

The Night’s Watch oath: I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children.

snip

Maybe the Night Watch is a homoerotic communist entity?

[Black Crow]

Grumpkin Ahai, on 25 May 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

  I got more questions -The WW have not been spotted since the last long winter?

Ah yes they have. The Wildlings know of them and when Mormont is trying to persuade Tyrion to have more men sent to the Wall he mentions very matter of factly that White Walkers have been seen near Eastwatch - no screaming ab dabs because the Others are coming, just a note. There are also some odd references to something 1,000 years ago which we think ties in the sounding of horns, the night that ended battle and perhaps the Nights King. There'll be a roundup in Heresy 12

Quote

And before that since the days of Heroes where history turnes to folklore? -When was the last king of Winter? Did the transition from Winter to the North happen simultaneously? Were they always Starks?

As heretics we have a shrewd suspicion the Nights King was the last King of Winter

Quote

The Wall defends itself. [/i]So was it always manned?

We believe not. Its a magical construct not something thrown up by Bran the Builder to hold back the Others.

[Black Crow]

Ser Squirrelly, on 25 May 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

The above comments bring a thought to mind… The Night’s Watch oath: I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. Characters make fun of it throughout the series. The senselessness of it. Why a vow of chastity would somehow make better fighters. Then consider Craster, giving away his male babies. Maybe the oath was created because the Others somehow need these babies, not just for food or ritual sacrifice, but something larger. Maybe the babies’ existence is crucial to the Others' existence. The Night's Watch oath, then, can be viewed as a form of oral contraception used to keep potential armaments out of the hands of the enemy. And now suddenly all these babies showing up at the Wall…

A very valid point. If you've read back through the more recent Heresy threads you'll know we have the Others figured for the Sidhe and Craster's sons for changelings. As the Nights King/King of Winter also appears to have given up children to the Others/Sidhe, the obvious inference has to be no more children given up to the Sidhe/Others and just to make sure we'll have no children anywhere near the Wall.

[Black Crow]

And as this seems an appropriate point in the story with requests for summaries and updates as to where we are, Heresy 12 is now open for business.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Black Crow, on 25 May 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

A very valid point. If you've read back through the more recent Heresy threads you'll know we have the Others figured for the Sidhe and Craster's sons for changelings. As the Nights King/King of Winter also appears to have given up children to the Others/Sidhe, the obvious inference has to be no more children given up to the Sidhe/Others and just to make sure we'll have no children anywhere near the Wall.

Which perhaps means that the Night's watch used to be tribe? Like women there. Like not only criminals but people are born, raised and die at the wall (like Monster, who's Craster's son, sketchy. And Shireen is there looking all grey freaking Val out). That's intresting. However I thought the Starks were the kings of winter/Night's king. Which would mean that the Starks had a little bit of (for lack of a better word) ADWD. And there used to be 2 Stark nations in the North.
The more that I think about the Starks, they are dicks. They took over the Dredfort people, they killed all of Manderlys enimes and made themselves look like Gods. And of course they reversed the atmosphere in The North and gave the appearence that The First Men runs shit in the North, not the children/trees.... Even thought they love the trees themselves

[WhiteGhost]

Regarding the Night Watch, Jon, and Targ's; the thing that I keep thinking about is when Jon was in the Ice tunnels the NW uses for cold storage, he thought to himself that it seemed "colder than it should be". Then I think about the Ice Dragon, and Maester Aemon, and I wonder if he had a dragon egg as a young prince...

I do think there will be an ice dragon at some point, which will come from The Wall. I think the Horn of Jaramun was the small one Jon found with the cache of dragon glass on the Fist of Men, but I'm unclear as to what became of it. Can't wait for the next book...

[Black Crow]

Take yourself to Heresy 38 where you'll find this discussion has moved on somewhat since May last year.

[WhiteGhost]

Thanks.