The Latest News
Connect with Us

Notable Releases
From the Store
Game of Thrones House Stark Mens Banner Ring
Game of Thrones House Stark Mens Banner Ring
HBO US
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


Photo

[Book Spoilers] On orders from the Halfhand


  • Please log in to reply
30 replies to this topic

#1 Im no Ser

Im no Ser

    Landed Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 416 posts

Posted 08 May 2012 - 01:08 PM

I know there's been substantial discussion about Jon's chasing Ygriite, but I was more struck by what happened immediately prior.

In the novels, Quorhin Halfhand returns to find Jon and the other rangers with Ygritte captive. He takes the others and leaves, but not before telling Jon to do "what needs to be done." Jon then lets Ygritte go, and later confesses to Quorhin that he didn't execute her. Halfhand replies that he didn't tell him to execute her, that he didn't need her dead, and if he had needed her dead he would have killed her himself or had one of the other rangers do it. The purpose of the order was to learn who Jon really is; that's critical, because later Halfhand literally gives his own life in large part on the trust that Jon will continue the mission.

The show - for reasons that escape me - have changed that. Quorhin's order is an unambiguous direction to Jon to kill Ygritte. Jon disobeys the order.

I'm baffled by this choice. The lack of ambiguity in the order means that from a NW perspective Jon is ultimately not to be trusted to do the hard things required of the mission, and therefore unlikely to be asked to kill Quorhin and infiltrate the wildlings (and it wouldn't be the first time he disobeyed orders). It also removes depth and competence from Quorhin - he's not only less interesting (he's just another NW officer ordering a wilding execution, as opposed to a brilliant commander taking an opportunity to see inside the soul of one of his men) but also unfit for the job (if she needs to be killed, don't leave the new kid alone to do it).

What's particularly puzzling is: why? If Quorhin gives the more ambiguous order, the rest of the scene can still play out exactly the same way.

#2 Laohu

Laohu

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 125 posts

Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:53 PM

Ya, I felt like this was botched a little bit just from what we saw in episode 6. I am going to try and reserve judgment until we see the rest of the season play out.

I cannot really think of a way they can make kill order thing work at the moment, but perhaps they had there reasons for doing it this way. Hopefully we find out relatively soon how Jon's predicament will play out. (ep. 7 please)

#3 The Smiling Eye

The Smiling Eye

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 147 posts

Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:13 PM

Maybe they just delayed her real escape for some delicious spooning? Come on guys!

#4 Eddard Sand

Eddard Sand

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 46 posts

Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:25 AM

I'm not gunna lie the spooning was cute. It Had my sisters who are apparently fond of Jon Snow booing Ygritte... I'm guessing there is still a chance that we can see the Halfhand sacrifice himself.

I can imagine a scene where Jon meets back up with Halfhand only to be immediately set upon by Rattleshirt/ generic wildlings. Qhorin grabs Jon and orders him to double agent kill him. He could even throw in a "you've already disobeyed me once" thing for emphasis.

#5 Terminated

Terminated

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 35 posts

Posted 10 May 2012 - 02:47 AM

Qhorin knew.

Jon had already a hard time killing her with the pressure of his brothers watching, and someone as experienced as Qhorin knows that leaving them together only increased the chances of him letting her go. Ever tried to force a kid to eat something he doesn't want to ? Do you really think that leaving him alone will increase the chances of him eating it ?

It was a test.

#6 StarkWard

StarkWard

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 365 posts

Posted 10 May 2012 - 03:15 AM

If one thinks on it though, Qhorin couldn't risk a live witness telling on their location. Ygritte SHOULD have been killed. If he wanted to give the boy a test, now was not the most optimal time. It's too risky; their location would be compromised, and he and his men would die. Surely the Halfhand thought about that if he gave Jon the "I-want-you-to-die-fighting" speech. Qhorin wants to understand his men, but then, he is also a man that knew what needed to be done. He would not have survived that long if he didn't.

#7 boojam

boojam

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,295 posts

Posted 11 May 2012 - 07:30 AM

The show - for reasons that escape me - have changed that. Quorhin's order is an unambiguous direction to Jon to kill Ygritte. Jon disobeys the order.


Some more escaped subtly in this teleplay, I am sorry, but I don't think this writer was cut out for this kind of story , or at least D&D need to keep a tighter script review. Need a replacement for her next season.
Maybe D&D will fix it up next episode, a lot of fixing up is needed right now.

Edited by boojam, 11 May 2012 - 07:31 AM.


#8 boojam

boojam

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,295 posts

Posted 11 May 2012 - 07:41 AM

Just an observation on this whole thing.
George needed a POV for Mance and it seems only Jon was available ...
In the novel I had to keep my suspension of disbelief in full force ... because my brain keep telling me this ploy is so awkward it would have never worked.
It would have taken some real imagination as to how to get Jon in as a 'mole' but I think it could have been done.


#9 The Monkey

The Monkey

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,439 posts

Posted 11 May 2012 - 10:34 AM

I'm guessing there is still a chance that we can see the Halfhand sacrifice himself.

I can imagine a scene where Jon meets back up with Halfhand only to be immediately set upon by Rattleshirt/ generic wildlings. Qhorin grabs Jon and orders him to double agent kill him. He could even throw in a "you've already disobeyed me once" thing for emphasis.

This will definitely play out similar to the book.

Episode 10 description:
Spoiler


#10 Tadco26

Tadco26

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 267 posts

Posted 11 May 2012 - 10:54 AM

Part of the reason for the story change is that Jon did not capture Ygritte on top of a mountain and then march her back to Qhorin after a day or so like the book. She was no longer in a spot where it was easy to send a warning by the time Qhorin told Jon to deal with her. The book version they took the wildlings horn that they would have used to send their warning, but I do not recall if there was a horn shown in the TV scene. In the books she was left unarmed, afoot behind the rangers who were mounted, and not likely to be a threat, where that was not so clear in the show.

#11 gogorath

gogorath

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 321 posts

Posted 11 May 2012 - 01:38 PM

I know there's been substantial discussion about Jon's chasing Ygriite, but I was more struck by what happened immediately prior.

In the novels, Quorhin Halfhand returns to find Jon and the other rangers with Ygritte captive. He takes the others and leaves, but not before telling Jon to do "what needs to be done." Jon then lets Ygritte go, and later confesses to Quorhin that he didn't execute her. Halfhand replies that he didn't tell him to execute her, that he didn't need her dead, and if he had needed her dead he would have killed her himself or had one of the other rangers do it. The purpose of the order was to learn who Jon really is; that's critical, because later Halfhand literally gives his own life in large part on the trust that Jon will continue the mission.

The show - for reasons that escape me - have changed that. Quorhin's order is an unambiguous direction to Jon to kill Ygritte. Jon disobeys the order.

I'm baffled by this choice. The lack of ambiguity in the order means that from a NW perspective Jon is ultimately not to be trusted to do the hard things required of the mission, and therefore unlikely to be asked to kill Quorhin and infiltrate the wildlings (and it wouldn't be the first time he disobeyed orders). It also removes depth and competence from Quorhin - he's not only less interesting (he's just another NW officer ordering a wilding execution, as opposed to a brilliant commander taking an opportunity to see inside the soul of one of his men) but also unfit for the job (if she needs to be killed, don't leave the new kid alone to do it).

What's particularly puzzling is: why? If Quorhin gives the more ambiguous order, the rest of the scene can still play out exactly the same way.


I am normally an anti-book purist, but this would probably be the first change that would bother me.

It's a plot hole if it was never a test -- but that's kind of silly in the book as well. And I don't need Qhorin to be so noble; he's not a key character. But to have Jon kill him to save his own skin isn't making Cersei more likeable or Littlefinger a bit less competent, it's changing some pretty core elements of his character.

If all we got out of that is a bit of early Ygritte-ness and a chase scene, I'm not sure I like that trade.

#12 SerMixalot

SerMixalot

    Ironically Wearing Sweat Pants

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,620 posts

Posted 11 May 2012 - 07:19 PM

u see the thing is orders from a NW officer are more advisory than actual orders, so all is good

#13 Liathano

Liathano

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 25 posts

Posted 11 May 2012 - 10:09 PM

I feel like we need to just wait and see what they have planned. I'd forgotten that it was a test, and still saw that jon was too "nice" (I say weak of character, but potaytoes, potaatoes) to do the deed, which can still be commented on later on my Qhorin who will then say he trusts him to continue the mission.

#14 SerMixalot

SerMixalot

    Ironically Wearing Sweat Pants

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,620 posts

Posted 11 May 2012 - 10:17 PM

of course that leads to conjecture on what is going to happen next with ygritte and jon

does he let her go? why after chasing her, QH wouldhave reason to think Jon had turned his cloak or started to

does she escape? what was the point of the chase and spooning then, QH would view jon as incompetent

brings her to QH? QH wouldjust kill her out of hand

#15 Team Shaggydog

Team Shaggydog

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts

Posted 12 May 2012 - 11:34 AM

Been lurking for awhile, but I registered because I was surprised that no one, that I've seen anyway, has yet interpreted this scene the way I did immediately.

It seemed obvious to me actually, and now I'm wondering if I'm just making up subtext in my head if I'm alone in this, but I thought Qhorin knew right away that Jon wasn't going to be able to kill Ygritte when he volunteered, and that's why he rushed the other rangers away to leave Jon alone with her, because he knew Jon would let her go. I thought Qhorin's plan was that when their party came upon Mance, Ygritte would vouch for Jon, and he'd be taken prisoner or allowed to join them, so then the NW would have Jon on the inside. I came to that conclusion because Qhorin point blank asked her what happen if he himself were to be taken prisoner, and she said they'd kill him. So that's when he figured Jon would be their double agent. I don't know if he knew Jon would be lugging her around indecisively the way he is, which might be the reason why they made themselves scarce when Jon tried to rejoin them with her tied up, but I'm pretty sure he knew when he left them alone together that she wasn't going to die.

Thoughts?

#16 Raja

Raja

    2 Chambz

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,570 posts

Posted 12 May 2012 - 11:54 AM

Jeez , it's not even played out yet. I can see it going quite like how it goes in the books with the Rangers finding Jon the next time we see him with Yigritte having escaped or let go

#17 jarl the climber

jarl the climber

    It tastes like triumph

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,806 posts

Posted 12 May 2012 - 12:48 PM

I think Ghost will find them when they are waking up and Ygritte will freak out thinking that it is going to eat her and Jon. Jon will be like no problem he's my buddy and she'll be like your a Warg and he'll say get the hell out of here and we will get our first you know nothing Jon Snow.

#18 Jayaris

Jayaris

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 120 posts

Posted 12 May 2012 - 03:48 PM

short


I just watched the scene and :

Quorhin asks Ygritte what the wildlings would do to him if he was captured.

He pulls out a sword and says :

"It needs to be done, want me to do it?"

Jon says "No"

Quorhin says "Don't take too long"

I think you're really overstating how unambigious the statement is, he at no point in the scene orders Jon to kill her :

In the book you have

"What needs to be done"

In the show you have

"It needs to be done"

It would be in no way a stretch to suggest that Quorhin knew he would let her go, which is why he gave him a false rendezvous point and that it was a test of character - As in the books.

By the tone of the thread I would of expected Quorhin to say "Jon Snow, better off this wildling son - Or else."

Maybe I missed some hidden footage where that actually happened..

Otherwise, I do not see how this could be considered a plot hole.

The only stupid thing in the scene was the ambiguity of whether or not Jon missed on purpose or not.

#19 House Snow

House Snow

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 241 posts

Posted 12 May 2012 - 03:49 PM

I think they are trying to set up a believable way for the wildings to take Jon. In the book it seemed sort of a jump in logic for them to take him in out, even in the untrusting way that they did. It probably still won't be believable but it will probably make more sense then the book.

#20 King Cheops

King Cheops

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 103 posts

Posted 12 May 2012 - 11:59 PM

When I saw it I just assumed that Qhorin saw that Jon fancied Ygritte so was leaving him alone to rape her then kill her. He and the men were just giving Snow some privacy.