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[Book Spoilers] On orders from the Halfhand


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30 replies to this topic

#21 kungtotte

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:25 AM

In the books you have Qhorin wanting to figure out more about Jon Snow (who he has heard a lot about, Jon was the one who saved the Old Bear's life when the wight attacked him after all), that is why he tells Jon to do what needs to be done about Ygritte. Afterwards when he finds out Jon didn't do it (something he already suspected), he tells him he would have used Ebben if he desperately wanted her dead, or done it himself.

"Then why did you command it of me?"
"I did not command it. I told you to do what needed to be done, and left you to decide what that would be." Qhorin stood and slid his longsword back into its scabbard. "When I want a mountain scaled, I call on Stonesnake. Should I need to put an arrow through the eye of some foe across a windy battlefield, I summon Squire Dalbridge. Ebben can make any man give up his secrets. To lead men you must know them, Jon Snow. I know more of you now than I did this morning."
"And if I had slain her?" asked Jon.
"She would be dead, and I would know you better than I had before. But enough talk. You ought to be sleeping. We have leagues to go, and dangers to face. You will need your strength."


It's not important to Qhorin whether she lives or dies, she just can't come with them, but it's important to him to know what Jon Snow would do in a particular situation so that he may lead him effectively. Jon's actions are what allows Qhorin to formulate his plan of Jon pretending to turn cloak.


I really don't like the change, because you've completely changed the tone of the characters and introduced plot issues. When Jon finally makes it back to Qhorin he will be seen as unreliable, he was told to off some chick and instead he disappeared for days doing lord knows what, so Qhorin will distrust him. Which is completely opposite of what actually happens in the book. So now you need to devote screentime to that conflict and its resolution. I can't think of a single valid reason why they would make this change.

The problem in a nutshell is that Qhorin Halfhand would never trust TV-Jon with his final orders.

#22 congokong

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:27 AM

There are a lot of "why"s this season. Answer: The writers think they can do it better and/or their pride keeps them from simply copy/pate/cut GRRM's work. They want to make it "their own." If that means the show will become tainted in the process well...

Quorin behaved like he just wanted to pick a fight but Jon wasn't giving him one. And how he said to kill Yygritte is just another pointless change.

#23 Dragon greyscale

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 02:37 AM

There are a lot of "why"s this season. Answer: The writers think they can do it better and/or their pride keeps them from simply copy/pate/cut GRRM's work. They want to make it "their own." If that means the show will become tainted in the process well...

Quorin behaved like he just wanted to pick a fight but Jon wasn't giving him one. And how he said to kill Yygritte is just another pointless change.

I think that's too harsh. This has been extensively discussed in other boards but why is the change already deemed pointless? It's different for sure, but this whole "there is no reason" argument is way too soon to tell. By now I think it's fair to say that Joff/Ros was pointless. Craster knocking out Jon, on the other hand, was definitely not pointless. Let things play out. I'm pretty sure that Qorin will see a strength in Jon's 'weakness' and he will therefore order Jon to infiltrate and kill qorin. That's Jon's most important development in ACoK anyway.

#24 Fengari

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 05:47 AM

I have no problems with the scene.

If Qhorin really wanted Ygritte dead, why would he leave it to the newbie? And why not just wait a few more minutes to see it is done? There's no point in them leaving if it wasn't to give Jon the chance to let her go...

But even if Qhorin really wanted her dead and leaving was just a bad move on his part, that doesn't have to change the part where he tells Jon to infiltrate and kill him. After all, by that time, there really are no other options left: they are vastly outnumbered and if they fight, they will die. The only option then is to have someone yield and infiltrate, and who better for that task than the guy who has just spared a wildling's life?

I think Ygritte will still get away (maybe she will even be gone by the time Jon wakes up, after all, as a wildling woman, how unlikely is it that she has a few knives hidden under all that fur to cut herself loose?), Jon will find his brothers again, and the rest will be by the book...

#25 Buckwheat

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 11:44 AM

I think Ghost will find them when they are waking up and Ygritte will freak out thinking that it is going to eat her and Jon. Jon will be like no problem he's my buddy and she'll be like your a Warg and he'll say get the hell out of here and we will get our first you know nothing Jon Snow.

That would be so cool. But I am afraid this is the reason why it will not happen. /frown5.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':frown5:' />

#26 jarl the climber

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 01:41 PM

That would be so cool. But I am afraid this is the reason why it will not happen. /frown5.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':frown5:' />

I agree people have so far prefered to call Jon stupid, the know nothing bit does get old but it beats stupid.

#27 Buckwheat

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 01:49 PM

I agree people have so far prefered to call Jon stupid, the know nothing bit does get old but it beats stupid.

Well, the way he acts this season, and especially the last episode, I would call him stupid as well. I have been asking myself the whole time "Er, Jon? What are you doing?" Letting Ygritte live and then chasing her? Tying her in this way that looked ridiculous? Talking that way to Qhorin?

Coming from a fan of book-Jon and first season-Jon.

#28 jarl the climber

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 02:10 PM

He behaves with a lot more discretion in the book, even letting ygritte free is no big deal, they are mounted and she is on foot behind them and unarmed.

The way it went in the book, Jon told her he was a Snow and that was repulsive to her a cursed name and then he mentions being the Bastard of Winterfell and she warms up to him and tells him the tale of Bael the Bard, which I hope they don't cut. She meets Ghost the next morning when the others come up the mountian and she deduces that he is a warg only then does she suggest Mance would take him. The point is is that in the book he is mostly competent and you can see why they are grooming him for command but they seem to be focusing on him being green and foolish so far.

#29 SerMixalot

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 05:43 PM

green and foolish, aye

like creating the conflict between he and craster and mormonts disdain for jon, completely needless additions to the story, that will make jon becoming LC less ratiional

#30 King Cheops

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 07:13 PM

Jon becoming LC was rational? No it wasn't.

TV Jon is being set up to show why he fails.

#31 SerMixalot

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 07:24 PM

he fails? we havent seen that yet