Crazy theory: Jon Snow really is Ned Stark's bastard

[Maxpey]

I think that Jon Snow really is Ned Stark's bastard with Ashara Dayne.

My theory is that when Ned was at King's Landing after the death of Aerys he wanted to find out what happened to Lyanna. Ashara Dayne was also there, as she was one of Princess Elia's handmaiden. As the brother of Arthur Dayne, she knew Lyanna was at the Tower of Joy. Because she loved Ned Stark, she told him where he could find his sister and she accompanied him and the other Northmen to the Tower of Joy. Having his first love so close was too much for Ned to handle, so he slept with Ashara, who became pregnant.

When Ned found Lyanna at the Tower of Joy, he discovered that Rhaegar did not kidnap her but instead she went along willingly. Lyanna then told Ned about her son with Rhaegar and made Ned promise that he would protect him.

The parties then proceed to Starfall so that Ned could return Dawn to the Dayne family. Ned passes off Lyanna's son as his "bastard" and Wylla is his wet nurse. It is while Ned is at Starfall that Ashara gives birth to Jon Snow. Now Ned truly has a dilemma; he cannot return to Winterfell with 2 "bastard" children that are different ages. So he asks Ashara to watch over Lyanna's son while he takes Jon with him to Winterfell. Ashara, still in love with Ned but knowing that she cannot go with him, agrees and disappears with Lyanna's son under the fake stillborn/suicide story.

Remember, Ned feels extremely guilty about Jon AND the promise he made to Lyanna. I think it's more than just the fact that passing off her son as his own bastard would cause pain to Catelyn. I think his guilt stems from the fact that he didn't truly keep his promise and that he gave into temptation and fathered a bastard.

What made he think this is the case was some lines in G of T where Ned is riding in the rain. I can't remember the exact quote, but it is something like "As he rode Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so much like a younger version of his own. He wondered if the gods frowned on bastards so much, why did they fill men with such lusts?"

I know he could be thinking about Rhaegar lusting after Lyanna, but it just seemed like Ned was talking about his own "lust" for Ashara Dayne and how Jon had to pay the price for it.

[Ser Giant]

I like this and I hope it's true. I don't want Jon to be a Targ at all.

I assume it would mean R+L= the recently revealed Aegon then? and that he is real?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

When are Ned and Ashara supposed to have conceived Jon?

Why does Ned never once think of Ashara, or think any other children besides Jon?

[Brandon Black]

I think direct quotes from the book may help to establish you theory a little better. When Arya is talking with Ned Dayne, he mentions that he and Jon were milk brothers. He didn't mention another child. Ned is obviously not a bastard. I recall Ned Stark wishing to speak with Jon and always going back to the "Promise me Ned".

[Maxpey]

You may be right about Ned associating Jon and the promise to Lyanna, but my recollection is that he doesn't. The reason that Ned Dayne doesn't mention Wylla breast feeding another child is that he didn't know that there were 2 children. Remember, Ashara was pregnant and allegedly gave birth to a stillborn child. Again, I think this was a cover story.

[kaukula]

Aegon is such imba and stupid character to be inserted so late in the story that I absolutely don't give a rats pie about him, and I wish he dies the most painful death possible.

That being said, if Martin really decided to drop R+L=J and bring another Targaryen into play, I could very well see him trying to give as much pedigree to Aegon, including making him the son of Regar and Lyenna, in an effort to make readers like him. So this kind of theory actually might turn out to be close to the truth in the end.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You may be right about Ned associating Jon and the promise to Lyanna, but my recollection is that he doesn't. The reason that Ned Dayne doesn't mention Wylla breast feeding another child is that he didn't know that there were 2 children. Remember, Ashara was pregnant and allegedly gave birth to a stillborn child. Again, I think this was a cover story.

When are Ned and Ashara supposed to have conceived Jon, by this theory? Never mind, you think they did it after the Sack.

That does not work.

If you're presuming that Ashara was in the capital during the Sack, that's incorrect. GRRM said that Ashara was not with Elia in the last year of her marriage. And Jon was born at the time of the Sack, up to a month after. So if Ned and Ashara conceived him at the time of the Sack in your theory, it doesn't work.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I'm not buying this theory at all. The only reason for the whole Ashara Dayne theory is that Ned needed an explanation if Jon ever displayed Targaryen features (Daynes have similar features).

The timeline also does not work and the book is too clear as to what happened at the TOJ. Lyanna Stark being in a pool of blood (from childbirth) and exacting a dying wish from Ned (protect Rhaegar's child). I like theories as much as the next guy, but I have booked this w/o question.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

The Gulltown fisherman's daughter Wylla story we heard in the Davos POV certainly passed the smell test. Plausible, matches Ned's movements at the time, and fits the timeline, That story did much to shake my R+L=J thoughts, I must say.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The Gulltown fisherman's daughter Wylla story we heard in the Davos POV certainly passed the smell test. Plausible, matches Ned's movements at the time, and fits the timeline, That story did much to shake my R+L=J thoughts, I must say.

Nope. It reeks worse rotten fish. Why? Because Ned was in Sisterton at the start of the war, before he went south and before he married Catelyn. If he'd fathered Jon on the fisherman's daughter, he would not have broken his vows with Catelyn. Jon would also be noticeably older than Robb, which would have been evident when the two were put side by side as babies. Whatever the truth is about Jon's parents, Ned's story relies on Jon being conceived after he married Catelyn and on Jon being younger than Robb (whether he actually is, I don't know; I think Ned puts Jon's age after Robb's to quell Catelyn's succession fears, but Jon might very well be a tad older).

That's to say nothing of the obvious logic gaps it leaves, such as, "What the hell did Ned promise Lyanna?" and "If this woman is Jon's mother, why not just say so?"

We also have it on GRRM's authority that Ned is the one who gave Jon his name, a direct contradiction with the Sisterton story. It's gossip and nothing more. You know what fisherman's daughters bring in? Red herrings. ;)

[Miriamele]

If Jon is indeed Ned's (though I believe in R+L=J), the mother must be highborn and probably alive. Someone whose honor must be protected. Who would care if it was some serving girl? Why would Ned have kept it secret? Even Ashara was dead, so it wouldn't have harmed her if people had known.

[Maxpey]

When are Ned and Ashara supposed to have conceived Jon, by this theory? Never mind, you think they did it after the Sack.

That does not work.

If you're presuming that Ashara was in the capital during the Sack, that's incorrect. GRRM said that Ashara was not with Elia in the last year of her marriage. And Jon was born at the time of the Sack, up to a month after. So if Ned and Ashara conceived him at the time of the Sack in your theory, it doesn't work.

I would agree that if Ashara was not in King's Landing then my theory takes a major hit. My question is where does GRRM say that Ashara had left King's Landing by the time of the sack?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I would agree that if Ashara was not in King's Landing then my theory takes a major hit. My question is where does GRRM say that Ashara had left King's Landing by the time of the sack?

It's in an SSM that I'm currently trying to find.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Chronology/

She was with Elia in the "first few years" of her marriage, which implies that she was not with her later in her marriage.

And even if Ashara was in King's Landing at the time of the Sack, which she wasn't, that still doesn't mean she can be Jon's mother. Jon was BORN at about the time of the Sack, not CONCEIVED.

[Rheagar Prime]

Aegon is such imba and stupid character to be inserted so late in the story that I absolutely don't give a rats pie about him, and I wish he dies the most painful death possible.

That being said, if Martin really decided to drop R+L=J and bring another Targaryen into play, I could very well see him trying to give as much pedigree to Aegon, including making him the son of Regar and Lyenna, in an effort to make readers like him. So this kind of theory actually might turn out to be close to the truth in the end.

damn why you don't like aegon lol

[Brucolac]

Fisherman story is untrue for sure, but it didn't have to be jokingly backed up so many times by Stannis and Jon himself-really annoying writing. The word "fishwife" makes me cringe.

[Jabronius Maximus]

I want to believe this theory too, because I want Jon to have a major influence in the war/politics in the North as a legitimized (per Robb's will?) Stark. I mean, the fact that the Karstark daughter (Alys?) comes to Jon of all people leads me to believe that the North see Jon as Ned's son, not just a bastard, and can trust him (then again, bastards are regarded differently in the North than the South in general). If he were to be legitimized, I think a lot of Northmen would rally to him and unite under the Stark banner.

But the evidence for R+L=J is approaching mountainous levels, and I find it hard to think it's anything else. Maybe, just maybe, Lyanna made Ned promise to raise Jon as a legitimate Stark - ie claim as a bastard but then legitimize him. That would explain Ned's thoughts of 'blood and broken promises...' - he kept only half the promise. Although reaching a bit, I think that would explain Ned's feeling of shame when thinking of Jon in the black cells - he couldn't fulfill his promise, let Jon go to the wall, etc.

GRRM has a strange way of exacting revenge on certain characters. Slynt betrayed Ned, but no one in King's Landing sought to kill Janos. Jon ends up beheading him, at the Wall of all places, and we the readers cheer seeing that justice is served. But Jon had no idea what Slynt did to Ned, it was just Slynt's being a jackass that cost him his head. This is a random point, but I'll link it to Lyanna's promise. Ned wasn't able to fulfill it, but it will be eventually - I believe by Robb's letter. I will look for more incidences of this 'indirect fulfillment' that GRRM seems to use; so far I can only think of Slynt's situation, and possibly Lyanna's promise, but there may be more.

[Sister Goldenhair]

I've always thought the R + L = J just too pat for GRRM. I don't believe Jon is a Targ and he may very well be a Stark, not sure but do believe he is of the north....

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

I like the theory, I'm still sort of in the R+L = group but

I've been trying to project why Ned would assume the NW to be the best place for Jon if he isn't his own bastard.

If you are going to tell someone you are not their father, would you do that before they decided to take a vow that commits them to the NW for life, or after they have already committed?

Yes the North considers the NW honorable, it could protect a Targ bastard from Baratheon and other GoT players, but Ned still expects to talk to Jon about his parentage and I don't like the vibe of the NW commitment and then a posthumous bomb drop on Jon, who has based his decision on his personal perspective of his life & bastardness, then he finds out he isn't whom he thinks he is?

I feel like Ned would think of that.

albeit

I'm not 100% Ned knows the truth either, baby switch-eroos could have preceded Ned's decision to take care of Jon.

& His promise to Lyanna could be a different promise than we expect.

Also, how much symbolism/symmetry do we take from Jon switching the wildling babies? Felt to me like a way for Jon to understand his own origins, possibly, if he is still alive and somebody ever tells him.

[Bloodraven's Eye]

I've considered this before. With Jon Snow actually being Jon Snow Ned's bastard and Aegon being Aegon Rhaegar's son. Ned+Ashara=Jon and Rhaegar+Lyanna=Aegon. Take the bastard north. Fake Ashara's suicide and raise the heir to the Targaryen crown across the Narrow Sea. Wylla becomes the wet nurse for Asharas boy and Ashara breast feeds Lyanna's son. The only problem I see is the link with Varys and Illyrio. They seem to have a hand in all of this plotting with Aegon, even if Septa Lemore is Ashara. Also, I can't see Ned letting Lyanna's son out of his sight. The chronology could work if Ned knocks up/dishonors Ashara at Harrenhal and Rhaegar does the same to Lyanna after finding out she's the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Which is why she runs off with him in the first place. In the end I don't really care I just want Jon to know who is parents really are.

[Ghost714]

Anytime someone thinks of making a thread like this, they should go resurch the subject more, because it's just not the case, as Apple Martini has argued very well. It's just not possible.