Crazy theory: Jon Snow really is Ned Stark's bastard

[flinky]

Sooo... what if we are all wrong and Jon Snow has no father?

Midichlorians?

[Lady Storm]

I actually thought of that (with some minor time-and-place differences) and would prefer it to R+L=J.

Jon is simply too much of a Stark to become a Targ, and if he won't "become" a Targ, then what's the whole point of him being one?

Also, it makes sense that if Ned had a bastard son, he's more likely to keep that one close instead of his sister's son.

I mean, to let one of the babies go, he'd had to be sure the boy would be fine, so he either let his son with his mother (wich might make YG a Stark), or he would (and this one seems more logical) he would let Ashara go with the baby her brother was protecting.

[Rhaquentis]

Midichlorians?

Magical ones :P

[mattstocum]

But when R+L=J is true then Jon is not a Stark but a Targ. Therefore I feel/fthink/hope he has no ''right'' to have a wolf but a dragon. Starkblood is not enough to have a direwolve (At least I think) Karstarks have Stark blood but nu wolves. Probably every house in the North has a drop of stark blood but no wolves. Only the children of The Ned (gotta love the mountain clans with their nickname for Eddard) have wolves. Same is for Quentin he has a drop of Targ blood but enough to tame a dragon.

Something tells me magic doesn't concern itself too much with titles and worries more about blood. If Jon is Lyanna's son, he just as much Stark blood as Ned's children. All 6 kids are half-Stark, half-some other house. I always viewed the warging abilities as coming from the magic of the First Men, not from an inherited title. If Bran can warg, there's no reason Jon shouldn't be able to. Also, if R+L=J is true, Jon is descended from the two most magical families in Westeros.

Honestly, I think GRRM let Jon's parentage go unknown for a bit too long. It was probably something he originally intended to reveal in book 3 when the series was supposed to be a trilogy. At this point, however, R+L=J seems so obvious that it's starting to look unlikely. I really hope this all gets cleared up in WoW, or else GRRM will never be able to live up to people's expectations.

[MCBC]

I know its an underdog but I like this theory. Mostly because of the fact I feel that the end result of R+L=J just puts the Jon Snow character back at square one. You take a character who has always had an identity crisis & put him in the same situation all over again. I liked the fact that Jon was really maturing in ADWD & finally made a bold call to head south to take on the Boltons even though it backfired.

With N+A=J you give the character more closure. He finds out about his mother & moves on to whatever fate GRRM has for him.

[mattstocum]

I actually thought of that (with some minor time-and-place differences) and would prefer it to R+L=J.

Jon is simply too much of a Stark to become a Targ, and if he won't "become" a Targ, then what's the whole point of him being one?

Why does he have to become a Targ? Why can't he be both Stark and Targ, ice and fire. Ice ruled Westeros for a time, and it almost destroyed the First Men. Fire ruled Valyria and it was destroyed. If Jon really is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son it doesn't make sense for him to be anything other than both Stark and Targ.

[Lady Storm]

Why does he have to become a Targ? Why can't he be both Stark and Targ, ice and fire. Ice ruled Westeros for a time, and it almost destroyed the First Men. Fire ruled Valyria and it was destroyed. If Jon really is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son it doesn't make sense for him to be anything other than both Stark and Targ.

But that's the thing - i don't like the idea of him turning in the ultimate super-hero combining all the cool powers. If he is a Targ, that has to mean something. Now, the guy is already LC of NW, can warg, is considered cool and respected by the free folk and is off to save the world as we know it by fighting the real threat in the realm.

Add riding a dragon or puking fire over the others or waking ice dragons or sitting the iron throne while producing some sweet sweet targ babies with Dany, and this becomes ASOIAF: The Story of Jon Snow, half fire, half ice.

And that sounds cheesy to me :(

Also, it would require either a major character twist and some pretty convenient deaths to all the other people inclined to rule Westeros.

[Bog Devil]

I'm glad this topic exists, just because I was really resistant to R+L=J for a long time. I think Jon Snow being Ned Stark's bastard makes Ned Stark a better character. R+L=J makes Ned Stark some kind of god of honor, and I much prefer him as just a man, subject to the same temptations as the rest of us.

But reading through it again, R+L=J. I believe it for one simple reason.

There were three members of the goddamned Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. Not even just three. The three best ones. Oswell Whent, the White Bull, and the Sword of the Morning. The three that are referred to as "none other than <blank>". So who were they guarding there?

Nobody would hurt Lyanna Stark. The lords leading the Rebellion would know who she was, and would keep her safe knowing that their heads would make it onto spikes if she got hurt. The only person that might have been a danger to her was Robert himself in one of his legendary rages.

Her son would be another story entirely. Ned wouldn't have hurt him, but any other lord would have been quick to feed her moon tea, or just step on the baby's head.

Without Lyanna's child, none of the TOJ stuff makes any sense to me. And if Lyanna had a child, and Ned came home with a child, I don't buy that they would be different.

[Kirnan]

I think your conspiracy theories are all a bit nuts, people. Jon is not coming back with superpowers. Assuming he is not Ned's son, he will likely be healed somehow by Melissandre, or brought back. But he will still be Jon.

What is it about fans that they get so rabid about speculation anyway? Gah, I remember Harry Potter before the last book came out and I thought that was bad...

[mattstocum]

But that's the thing - i don't like the idea of him turning in the ultimate super-hero combining all the cool powers. If he is a Targ, that has to mean something. Now, the guy is already LC of NW, can warg, is considered cool and respected by the free folk and is off to save the world as we know it by fighting the real threat in the realm.

If Jon ends up being a super hero, I'm pretty sure the very next chapter he's going to die tripping over a frozen lump of cow poo. No one in this world seems to have anything great happen to them without something devastating to balance it out. But if Jon found out he was half-Targ, and his character completely changed, that would be awful. It makes more sense that it would just be a kick in the butt to realize he has a responsibility to the entire realm, not just the NW or Winterfell.

[mattstocum]

There were three members of the goddamned Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. Not even just three. The three best ones. Oswell Whent, the White Bull, and the Sword of the Morning. The three that are referred to as "none other than <blank>". So who were they guarding there?

The only thing that makes a bit of sense to me is to keep Ned from rescuing his sister from Rhaegar, assuming the story about Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna is actually true. Of course that story goes against every other bit of information we have about Rhaegar from anyone except Robert, who is more than a bit biased. Assuming it's true, though, it could be that they were guarding her, because Rhaegar knew that Lyanna was the only hope to negotiate a truce.

[ledlevee]

Except for this:

The biggest problem I see here is that Alfie Allen asked GRRM who Jon's father was, and Allen said, though he couldn't reveal GRRM's answer, "it was a Luke Skywlaker type situation." This proves that Ned is not the father, unless Allen was flat out lying.

[mattstocum]

Super crazy theory time, Benjen + Lyanna = Jon. I have absolutely nothing to back this up.

[ledlevee]

lol That's about as possible as Ned + Sansa = Jon. In all seriousness, I have seen people suggest that on here before. It may have been in the crackpot theory thread, not sure. It works for the Targs, not the Starks as far as I know.

The more I think about it, though, if you can get past the incest thing (which is a big if for the Starks), Benjen + Lyanna makes sense sort of. They were very close first of all. Plus Benjen was very close with Jon. There's good reason for Ned covering it up, since incest is frowned upon in the North. And Ned's broken promise could have been Lyanna saying "Ned, promise me he won't go to the Wall like his father did." That's assuming Benjen went to the Wall at this point, or told Lyanna he was going to go to the Wall. This also gives a reason for Benjen going to the Wall: he shamed his family through incest. The biggest issue would be why Ned never told Cat. Preserving his family's honor? It's possible but a huge stretch.

[Dragonfish]

I'm glad this topic exists, just because I was really resistant to R+L=J for a long time. I think Jon Snow being Ned Stark's bastard makes Ned Stark a better character. R+L=J makes Ned Stark some kind of god of honor, and I much prefer him as just a man, subject to the same temptations as the rest of us.

YMMV, but I'd like Ned's character even more if R+L=J, because it'd mean he has been sacrificing his honor by lying to everyone he loves, including his best friend and king, all to protect the child of the sister he loves. I find that a little touching, to be honest.

The more I think about it, though, if you can get past the incest thing (which is a big if for the Starks), Benjen + Lyanna makes sense sort of.

No, it doesn't really make sense. Jon was conceived a few months into Robert's Rebellion, during which time Benjen and Lyanna were separated (Benjen was in Winterfell, and Lyanna was in Targaryen hands).

[Maxpey]

What kind of moron came up with such a stupid theory?

Oh wait, it was me. Doh!!!! :leaving:

[mattstocum]

Preserving his family's honor? It's possible but a huge stretch.

Protecting him from Robert's wrath maybe? If he went to war over her, he might be a bit miffed to find out that she had a child with her little brother. I don't actually believe any of this, but it's funny to speculate about. It's also funny that the crazy theory at this point, is that Jon is exactly who Ned said he was.

[Precursor]

No.

1. Ashara was 'dishonored' at Harrenhal.
   
2. Ashara 'looked to' Stark.
   

Two separate things. He is not saying that Ashara was dishonored by a Stark.

He does not outright say that no. Nor did I claim he did, I noted that he does not outright say who dishonorGied her. I do think that her looking to Stark is an indication that a Stark may have done so. He feels "haunted" by the fact that she looked to Stark as opposed to him. More haunted by that than anything. Clearly something very, very bad resulted from Ashara looking to Stark as opposed to Selmy if he considers his failure to unhorse Rhaegar and at least bring about that possibility (Her looking to him) to be his most haunting failure.

Given that, I don't think it can be discounted that a Stark was responsible for dishonoring her, and I'd so far as to say it may be circumstantial evidence in favor of it.

[TheHoodedLady]

Perhaps I am wrong but if Jon really is L+R's son - he's still a bastard, isn't he? And if Aegon is really Rhaegar and Elia's "dead" son - then the "Targaryen" Jon would make no sense. There would be no point in continuing his storyline. Ned's bastard -> dead -> resurrected -> Rhaegar's bastard. Nothing happens, he's still Lord Commander or something. He has no rights to the Iron Throne.

It would be very disappointing for me if Jon was just a Snow and Aegon was the heir to the throne. We know Jon since the very first book, we saw him change, and Aegon? We know nothing about him and suddenly he turns out to be the one rightful heir. If so, then weren't the first 5 books just a prologue to Aegon's victorious conquest? This was not what I expected while reading the first four...

Even if Jon isn't a Targ I think he deserves a better end than being slaughtered like an animal.

[Dragonfish]

Perhaps I am wrong but if Jon really is L+R's son - he's still a bastard, isn't he?

Not necessarily. Rhaegar and Lyanna could have married (Targaryens practiced polygamy in the past), making Jon legitimate.

And if Aegon is really Rhaegar and Elia's "dead" son - then the "Targaryen" Jon would make no sense. There would be no point in continuing his storyline. Ned's bastard -> dead -> resurrected -> Rhaegar's bastard. Nothing happens, he's still Lord Commander or something. He has no rights to the Iron Throne.

Well, personally, I think Aegon is fake, so there you go.