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Baelish...Sygerrik .....Bael the Bard...Seriously, though has anyone ever thought of this?


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#21 Lord Littlefinger's Lash

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:56 AM

View PostElba the Intoner, on 09 May 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

Regarding this:

A parallel would be if Sansa and Petyr had a kid who became the lord of Winterfell and the Stark line would finally be infused with some intelligence.

There is some speculation that Sweet Robin as actually LF's son with Lysa as it's more than likely that they had sex when they were together in King's Landing.  And Sans/Alayne is now a surrogate mother for Sweet Robin.  So, this does make the theory a stronger parallel when you throw this into the mix.
Not really.  Also, that theory is silly.  It relies on the assumption that Jon Arryn is infertile, which I don't think is clear, or even likely.  


A cold gust of wind blew up her legs. She went inside to choose a gown to break her fast in. Petyr had given her his late wife’s wardrobe, a wealth of silks, satins, velvets, and furs far

beyond anything she had ever dreamed, though the great bulk of it was far too large for her; Lady Lysa had grown very stout during her long succession of pregnancies, stillbirths, and miscarriages. A few of the oldest gowns had been made for young Lysa Tully of Riverrun, however



“You were wed to Tyrion Lannister, Petyr says. That vile dwarf.”

“They made me marry him. I never wanted it.”

“No more than I did,” her aunt said. “Jon Arryn was no dwarf, but he was old. You may not think so to see me now, but on the day we wed I was so lovely I put your mother to shame. But all Jon desired was my father’s swords, to aid his darling boys. I should have refused him, but he was such an old man, how long could he live? Half his teeth were gone, and his breath smelled like bad cheese. I cannot abide a man with foul breath. Petyr’s breath is always fresh... he was the first man I ever kissed, you know. My father said he was too lowborn, but I knew how high he’d rise. Jon gave him the customs for Gulltown to please me, but when he increased the incomes tenfold my lord husband saw how clever he was and gave him other appointments, even brought him to King’s Landing to be master of coin. That was hard, to see him every day and still be wed to that old cold man. Jon did his duty in the bedchamber, but he could no more give me pleasure than he could give me children. His seed was old and weak. All my babies died but Robert, three girls and two boys. All my sweet little babies dead, and that old man just went on and on with his stinking breath. So you see, I have suffered too.” Lady Lysa sniffed.



Its not even clear whether they were sleeping together.


“And I of you, my lady.” He slid an arm around behind her and kissed her on the neck. “How soon can we be wed?”

“Now,” said Lady Lysa, sighing. “I’ve brought my own septon, and a singer, and mead for the wedding feast.”

“Here?” That did not please him. “I’d sooner wed you at the Eyrie, with your whole court in attendance.”

“Poo to my court. I have waited so long, I could not bear to wait another moment.” She put her arms around him. “I want to share your bed tonight, my sweet. I want us to make another child, a brother for Robert or a sweet little daughter.”

“I dream of that as well, sweetling. Yet there is much to be gained from a great public wedding, with all the Vale -”

“No.” She stamped a foot. “I want you now, this very night. And I must warn you, after all these years of silence and whisperings, I mean to scream when you love me. I am going to scream so loud they’ll hear me in the Eyrie!”

Perhaps I could bed you now, and wed you later?”

The Lady Lysa giggled like a girl. “Oh, Petyr Baelish, you are so wicked. No, I say no, I am the Lady of the Eyrie, and I command you to wed me this very moment!”



Sometimes I wonder if the Sansa people are making up their own story as they go along, a lot of these theories, are more in fan fiction than analysis.

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 09 May 2012 - 10:58 AM.


#22 Lord Littlefinger's Lash

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:02 AM

View PostCensored Wolf, on 09 May 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

Know that Petyr will die?  It's written on the wall.  
And what wall is that?  I mean I presume he's not immortal, vayalar moguls and all.  but beyond that...

Quote

It'll be a masterful bit of ink where Martin showcases his love for Petyr by killing him in the most entertaining way possible.

ETA: As for good guys, not even 1?  I hope, Westeros has a good guy hidden under a dragon somewhere.
No. None in Westeros or the real world either.  No bad ones either.  Just people.

Quote




Maybe SR would be part of that bit of ink, and that would be sweet.


#23 kwvapor

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:02 AM

View PostLord Littlefinger, on 09 May 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

Not really.  Also, that theory is silly.  It relies on the assumption that Jon Arryn is infertile, which I don't think is clear, or even likely.


A cold gust of wind blew up her legs. She went inside to choose a gown to break her fast in. Petyr had given her his late wife’s wardrobe, a wealth of silks, satins, velvets, and furs far

beyond anything she had ever dreamed, though the great bulk of it was far too large for her; Lady Lysa had grown very stout during her long succession of pregnancies, stillbirths, and miscarriages. A few of the oldest gowns had been made for young Lysa Tully of Riverrun, however



“You were wed to Tyrion Lannister, Petyr says. That vile dwarf.”

“They made me marry him. I never wanted it.”

“No more than I did,” her aunt said. “Jon Arryn was no dwarf, but he was old. You may not think so to see me now, but on the day we wed I was so lovely I put your mother to shame. But all Jon desired was my father’s swords, to aid his darling boys. I should have refused him, but he was such an old man, how long could he live? Half his teeth were gone, and his breath smelled like bad cheese. I cannot abide a man with foul breath. Petyr’s breath is always fresh... he was the first man I ever kissed, you know. My father said he was too lowborn, but I knew how high he’d rise. Jon gave him the customs for Gulltown to please me, but when he increased the incomes tenfold my lord husband saw how clever he was and gave him other appointments, even brought him to King’s Landing to be master of coin. That was hard, to see him every day and still be wed to that old cold man. Jon did his duty in the bedchamber, but he could no more give me pleasure than he could give me children. His seed was old and weak. All my babies died but Robert, three girls and two boys. All my sweet little babies dead, and that old man just went on and on with his stinking breath. So you see, I have suffered too.” Lady Lysa sniffed.



Its not even clear whether they were sleeping together.


“And I of you, my lady.” He slid an arm around behind her and kissed her on the neck. “How soon can we be wed?”

“Now,” said Lady Lysa, sighing. “I’ve brought my own septon, and a singer, and mead for the wedding feast.”

“Here?” That did not please him. “I’d sooner wed you at the Eyrie, with your whole court in attendance.”

“Poo to my court. I have waited so long, I could not bear to wait another moment.” She put her arms around him. “I want to share your bed tonight, my sweet. I want us to make another child, a brother for Robert or a sweet little daughter.”

“I dream of that as well, sweetling. Yet there is much to be gained from a great public wedding, with all the Vale -”

“No.” She stamped a foot. “I want you now, this very night. And I must warn you, after all these years of silence and whisperings, I mean to scream when you love me. I am going to scream so loud they’ll hear me in the Eyrie!”

Perhaps I could bed you now, and wed you later?”

The Lady Lysa giggled like a girl. “Oh, Petyr Baelish, you are so wicked. No, I say no, I am the Lady of the Eyrie, and I command you to wed me this very moment!”



I agree that SR is not fathered by LF but I think Elba was trying to use foster father, step father or it's equivalent as the example to match the bard's story.  


View PostLord Littlefinger, on 09 May 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

And what wall is that?  I mean I presume he's not immortal, vayalar moguls and all.  but beyond that...  No. None in Westeros or the real world either.  No bad ones either.  Just people.

My wall, I had it written there.  I think I've seen your philosophy written somewhere but I've seen plenty of people I deem good or bad enter and leave my life.  Westeros on the other hand is open to interpretation.  

According to your philosophy, just people, then are there lovely people, sexy people, small people, big people?  Or none of those too?  Maybe we shouldn't call Sweetrobin, Sweet.

Edited by Censored Wolf, 09 May 2012 - 11:11 AM.


#24 Lord Littlefinger's Lash

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:06 AM

View PostElba the Intoner, on 09 May 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

Regarding this:

A parallel would be if Sansa and Petyr had a kid who became the lord of Winterfell and the Stark line would finally be infused with some intelligence.

There is some speculation that Sweet Robin as actually LF's son with Lysa as it's more than likely that they had sex when they were together in King's Landing.  And Sans/Alayne is now a surrogate mother for Sweet Robin.  So, this does make the theory a stronger parallel when you throw this into the mix.
Also his name is Robert Arryn.  Must people insist on using that insipid moniker for him?

#25 Lord Littlefinger's Lash

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:09 AM

View PostCensored Wolf, on 09 May 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

I agree that SR is not fathered by LF but I think Elba was trying to use foster father, step father or it's equivalent as the example to match the bard's story.  

yeah. fan fiction.  res ipsa loquitur.

#26 Blisscraft

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:12 AM

LLL: Tried to post something earlier and something happened.  I like your idea and see the parallel.  Very interesting. :smoking:

#27 tze

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:16 AM

View PostLord Littlefinger, on 09 May 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

uh that would not be paralell, very creative wishful thinking though.  A bit pathetic, actually. Not that Sansa might not well kill Petyr, but it wouldn't be a parallel with that story.  A parallel would be if Sansa and Petyr had a kid who became the lord of Winterfell and the Stark line would finally be infused  with some intelligence.  

. . . Are you calling me pathetic? These sentences are so incoherent I can't really tell what you're saying.

If you make a Bael/Baelish parallel, the fact that the former was killed by his bastard Stark child would logically inform speculation that the latter's proximity to a Stark that he's telling everyone is his bastard child----well, that probably won't end well for him.

View PostLord Littlefinger, on 09 May 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

Do you really think that was in the least bit coherent?

Of course I do. Personally, I found your original post's wording to be incoherent (and clearly other posters did as well), but I felt that making a passive-aggressive comment about it would be unproductive, so I didn't.

Edited by tze, 09 May 2012 - 11:18 AM.


#28 butterbumps!

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:21 AM

LLL,  

I'm not sure I follow something, so help me out.    Do you not believe that there is a parallel?   It seems to me like you posited the notion that there's a parallel, and then have proceeded to argue against every other poster that submits an interpretation supporting what appears to be your position on the matter.  Is there a very specific aspect of this you're trying to say such a parallel exists?

#29 etu

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:33 AM

View Posttze, on 09 May 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

. . . Are you calling me pathetic? These sentences are so incoherent I can't really tell what you're saying.

If you make a Bael/Baelish parallel, the fact that the former was killed by his bastard Stark child would logically inform speculation that the latter's proximity to a Stark that he's telling everyone is his bastard child----well, that probably won't end well for him.


Particularly in light of Sansa being on course to kill something with giant symbolism at some point.

#30 kwvapor

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:39 AM

View Postbutterbumps!, on 09 May 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

LLL,  

I'm not sure I follow something, so help me out. Do you not believe that there is a parallel?   It seems to me like you posited the notion that there's a parallel, and then have proceeded to argue against every other poster that submits an interpretation supporting what appears to be your position on the matter.  Is there a very specific aspect of this you're trying to say such a parallel exists?

I'm guessing this is LLL's position:

View PostLord Littlefinger, on 09 May 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

uh that would not be paralell, very creative wishful thinking though.  A bit pathetic, actually.  Not that Sansa might not well kill Petyr, but it wouldn't be a parallel with that story.  A parallel would be if Sansa and Petyr had a kid who became the lord of Winterfell and the Stark line would finally be infused  with some intelligence.   Do you really think that was in the least bit coherent?

LLL didn't like the idea of Robin as the child in the parallel or the death of Petyr in the parallel, that he brought up I might add.  I never even thought of these ideas until LLL compared LF to the Bael bard.

Edited by Censored Wolf, 09 May 2012 - 11:42 AM.


#31 Lord Littlefinger's Lash

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:50 AM

View Postbutterbumps!, on 09 May 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

LLL,  

I'm not sure I follow something, so help me out. Do you not believe that there is a parallel?   It seems to me like you posited the notion that there's a parallel, and then have proceeded to argue against every other poster that submits an interpretation supporting what appears to be your position on the matter.  Is there a very specific aspect of this you're trying to say such a parallel exists?
  I was merely pointing out that one ending of the story involved Bael's son the Lord of Winterfell, killing him.  However, I didn't included that ending in the the quote I used. I was only referring to Bael, identifying himself as untrustworthy, Sygerrik,  gaining the Lord of Winterfell's trust, stealing the Lord of Winterfell's daughter, all using guile.  If you'll note, also, I wasn't making predictions but referring to things that have already occurred in the story in the OP.

Quote

A parallel would be if Sansa and Petyr had a kid who became the lord of Winterfell and the Stark line would finally be infused with some intelligence.


#32 Lord Littlefinger's Lash

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:53 AM

View PostCensored Wolf, on 09 May 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

I'm guessing this is LLL's position:



LLL didn't like the idea of Robin Robert as the child in the parallel or the death of Petyr in the parallel, that he brought up I might add.  I never even thought of these ideas until LLL compared LF to the Bael bard.
I simply don't think either of those things fit a parallel.

#33 Lord Littlefinger's Lash

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 12:00 PM

View Postetu, on 09 May 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

Particularly in light of Sansa being on course to kill something with giant symbolism at some point.
she already did.

“It’s not so great.” The boy knelt before the gatehouse. “Look, here comes a giant to knock it down.” He stood his doll in the snow and moved it jerkily. “Tromp tromp I’m a giant, I’m a giant,” he chanted. “Ho ho ho, open yourgates or I’ll mash them and smash them.” Swinging the doll by the legs, he knocked the top off one gatehouse tower and then the other.
It was more than Sansa could stand. “Robert, stop that.” Instead he swung the doll again, and a foot of wall exploded. She grabbed for his hand but she caught the doll instead. There was a loud ripping sound as the thin cloth tore. Suddenly she had the doll’s head, Robert had the legs and body, and the rag-and-sawdust stuffing was spilling in the snow.
Lord Robert’s mouth trembled. “You killed him,” he wailed. ...
“It was my fault.” Sansa showed them the doll’s head. “I ripped his doll in two. I never meant to, but...”
“His lordship was destroying the castle,” said Petyr.
“A giant,” the boy whispered, weeping. ....
They led the boy away. My lord husband, Sansa thought, as she contemplated the ruins of Winterfell. The snow had stopped, and it was colder than before. She wondered if Lord Robert would shake all through their wedding. At least Joffrey was sound of body. A mad rage seized hold of her. She picked up a broken branch and smashed the torn doll’s head down on top of it, then pushed it down atop the shattered gatehouse of her snow castle. The servants looked aghast, but when Littlefinger saw what she’d done he laughed. “If the tales be true, that’s not the first giant to end up with his head on Winterfell’s walls.”



#34 butterbumps!

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 12:00 PM

So you don't like speculation derived on the parallel?    I think you bring up a good literary observation, but literary parallels, if they're meant as such, always serve a greater purpose (unless they're "easter eggs" for the reader's humor-  are you thinking that's what this is?)   Usually if there's parallels in a story like this, they do serve as a basis for speculation, reveal some truth or direct association, or are some kind of thematic motif that means something more than object itself....Do you think there's any greater significance  (because it seems like that's part of what you've been arguing against).

#35 Sun

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 12:03 PM

The only Bael the bard parallel I perceived in the books is that of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

#36 etu

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 12:09 PM

View PostLord Littlefinger, on 09 May 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

she already did.

“It’s not so great.” The boy knelt before the gatehouse. “Look, here comes a giant to knock it down.” He stood his doll in the snow and moved it jerkily. “Tromp tromp I’m a giant, I’m a giant,” he chanted. “Ho ho ho, open yourgates or I’ll mash them and smash them.” Swinging the doll by the legs, he knocked the top off one gatehouse tower and then the other.
It was more than Sansa could stand. “Robert, stop that.” Instead he swung the doll again, and a foot of wall exploded. She grabbed for his hand but she caught the doll instead. There was a loud ripping sound as the thin cloth tore. Suddenly she had the doll’s head, Robert had the legs and body, and the rag-and-sawdust stuffing was spilling in the snow.
Lord Robert’s mouth trembled. “You killed him,” he wailed. ...
“It was my fault.” Sansa showed them the doll’s head. “I ripped his doll in two. I never meant to, but...”
“His lordship was destroying the castle,” said Petyr.
“A giant,” the boy whispered, weeping. ....
They led the boy away. My lord husband, Sansa thought, as she contemplated the ruins of Winterfell. The snow had stopped, and it was colder than before. She wondered if Lord Robert would shake all through their wedding. At least Joffrey was sound of body. A mad rage seized hold of her. She picked up a broken branch and smashed the torn doll’s head down on top of it, then pushed it down atop the shattered gatehouse of her snow castle. The servants looked aghast, but when Littlefinger saw what she’d done he laughed. “If the tales be true, that’s not the first giant to end up with his head on Winterfell’s walls.”


I am aware of that, as doubtless you are aware of theories that it doesn't fulfil the prophecy, and that Sansa still has a giant to slay.

#37 Lord Littlefinger's Lash

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 12:12 PM

View Posttze, on 09 May 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

. . . Are you calling me pathetic?
no just the analogy you're trying to make.

Quote

These sentences are so incoherent I can't really tell what you're saying.
I'm saying Bael steals the Stark's daughter and then they have a child.  That child became the lord of winterfell and then the child, the grandson of the Stark kills Bael.

Quote


If you make a Bael/Baelish parallel, the fact that the former was killed by his bastard Stark child would logically inform speculation that the latter's proximity to a Stark that he's telling everyone is his bastard child----well, that probably won't end well for him.
No because Sansa is the daughter of the Stark in Winterfell. She can't be both Petyr's child and the daughter of the Stark, or the analogy breaks down.

Quote




Of course I do. Personally, I found your original post's wording to be incoherent (and clearly other posters did as well), but I felt that making a passive-aggressive comment about it would be unproductive, so I didn't.
Well its not unproductive because if you make a comment, then I can clarify to better explain my point.

#38 Elba the Intoner

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 12:17 PM

View PostLord Littlefinger, on 09 May 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

I simply don't think either of those things fit a parallel.
But you did say that a parallel would be if Petyr and Sansa had a kid, and they do.  Sweet Robin, er, . . .  I mean Robert Arryn is as it stands now Petyr's step son and Sansa is his surrogate mother.  That is fact, not fan fiction.

As for the idea that Robert might be Petyr's biological son as well, I specifically said that is speculation based on what we've actually read.  That is a far cry from fan fiction.  You chose the above quotes from Lysa to prove that you don't believe this idea at all.  That's certainly your prerogative, but those exact same quotes to me provide pretty convincing evidence that Robert may be Petyr's biological son.  It is a logical conclusion based on her comment that Robert Arryn Sr. could not give her children, and it is also logical based on how we have actually seen that Lysa was obsessed with Petyr and she did things for him at his behest, and how Petyr manipulates people based on what he knows they want, which in Lysa's case was Petyr.

For the record, I do believe in the parallel you originally posted about Bael (I actually think it works for Jon too - there's no reason why it can't be both) and as Butterbumps explained above, I made further speculation to support that parallel.

#39 Lord Littlefinger's Lash

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 12:22 PM

View Postbutterbumps!, on 09 May 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

So you don't like speculation derived on the parallel? I think you bring up a good literary observation, but literary parallels, if they're meant as such, always serve a greater purpose (unless they're "easter eggs" for the reader's humor-  are you thinking that's what this is?)
I put most of the prophecies in that category.

Quote

    Usually if there's parallels in a story like this, they do serve as a basis for speculation, reveal some truth or direct association, or are some kind of thematic motif that means something more than object itself....Do you think there's any greater significance  (because it seems like that's part of what you've been arguing against).
I don't think it has any significance going forward. It could, of course.  It would have had more significance in Clash of Kings when it was initially mentioned.

#40 Ser Amoc

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 12:28 PM

LLL just dislikes the Starks because he perceives the blind honor they exude as a weakness, which I won't argue for or against. I think LLL is just hoping that if Baelish and Sansa produce a child that becomes heir to Winterfell, that child has some of Baelish's intelligence, unless I'm misinterpreting the insinuation.

There's definitely some weird parallel. I know this is 99.9% unlikely, as I don't think Baelish and Catelyn saw each other after Baelish fought Brandon for her hand back in the day, but what if Sansa is actually Catelyn and Baelish's offspring? I mean, if Catelyn thinks Ned fathered a bastard, then why can't she mother a bastard (Sansa) in this case?

Like I said, this is almost certainly not the case (timelines just don't match up), but if it were true, it'd be an interesting take on the proposed parallels we're trying to conclude.