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Tormund and Val ; Jon's Intermediaries to the Old Gods ?


bemused

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First off , I'm sure the things I want to discuss must have been discussed before, but I didn't start frequenting these boards a few months after the release of ADwD...some aspects of the topics are even being discussed right now on other threads , but in a different context. I'd like to consider them apart from those threads , just to keep it simple.

It strikes me that both Val and Tormund ( yes,Tormund ) may belong to a priestly class, and therefore , may have been even more helpful to Jon than he knows. ( And I hope they'll prove to be yet more helpful to him in TWoW , including in his healing and recovery. )

We know GRRM has said that the religion of the Old Gods was inspired by Northern European religions, particularly Norse . Of course his religion of the Old Gods won't be a direct copy..it will be filled with George's own wrinkles and flights , but to me, there now seem to be ways the two coincide that weren't really apparent , or at most , only very vaguely hinted at , up until ADwD.

Tormund ...( Titles , titles..)

Who doesn't love Tormund ? He's such a colourful character , so hearty and larger-than-life. It's tempting to take him at face value ; just the salt-of-the-earth guy , created mainly to humanize the wildlings and provide a bit of humour. He's also the side-kick to end all side-kicks ... first to Mance , later , to Jon. He's enormously entertaining , with his seemingly endless string of honorifics , some of which seem perfectly straight forward, others which have inspired plenty of speculation ... Mead-King of Ruddy Hall ( doesn't that evoke a Hrothgar-esque figure ? ) ... Tall-Talker ( he certainly is that ) ... Thunderfist ( brawl with him at your risk ) ... Husband to Bears ( Mormonts ?) ... Giantsbane (or is it Giantsbabe ?) ... Horn-Blower ( past or future ? And was there a special reason Mance told Jon that it would be Tormund who would blow the giant's horn at the wall ?) ... One of my favourite titles is Breaker of Ice - ( are we meant to take it literally , or is George playfully tempting us to take it in a more modern sense? .. Tormund breaks the ice between Jon and Mance , between Jon and the wildlings generally and between us and the wildlings ).

The sheer number of his honorifics single Tormund out. Oh , we know he has a penchant for exaggeration , but he does occupy a place of importance and his full importance may not yet have been revealed . The two titles that interest me most here , are Speaker to Gods and Father of Hosts.

Many of the ASoIaF religions work in a way we're very familiar with .. a priest speaks for God to the people . In the Norse model , the priest speaks for the people to the Gods...Speaker to Gods.

As for Father of Hosts , the number of Tormund's actual children would hardly amount to a host , and besides , the title uses the plural , Hosts.. Being a father figure to multiple hosts would imply a fairly impressive status.

In Norse culture , in each household, the father would officiate at day to day religious observances for the family.His wife might have some religious duties in matters that were the domain of women. Religious observances affecting or involving the whole clan, would be conducted by the chief or leader .. filling the father's role. Leader and head priest, all in one. This type of priest could be either male - Goði , or female - Gyðja .

At times of important communal religious observances and feasts, like seasonal changes, e.g., (at which mead and the meat of sacrificed animals would be shared ) , a leader of stature with a large hold might see his clan swell with visitors , maybe even entire smaller clans . ( Are we reminded of Ruddy Hall again ? ) This is one way Father of Hosts might apply.

I can't help but be reminded of Tormund saying to Jon, " When all my folk are safe behind your wall , we'll share a bit o' meat and mead." .. Will this seal their agreement in the eyes of the Gods? .. At every important juncture where we see Jon and Tormund together, Tormund is sharing a skin of mead with Jon. It's probable that even without knowing it, Jon is participating in a religious observance ... demonstrating his goodwill and sincerity to something greater than Tormund alone , or jointly trying to facilitate a favourable outcome to the proceedings.

If this is true of Tormund, his presence beside Jon at the big scene in the sheildhall not only says he supports Jon as a friend , but that he feels it's perfectly OK with the Gods.

Val ( and Dalla ) ...What's in a name ?

Like many others, I always thought Dalla and Val stood out from most other wildlings we've met , seeming more refined , or educated , with an air of nobility ,or.. something. There have been speculations that they could have been stolen as brides from some of the Northern clans, or that they're Moonsingers reintroduced from Braavos. But the more I thought about these options , the less right I could feel about it.

As well as the priest / preistesses already mentioned, the Norse had other types of priestesses or wise women who might be healers, or seers , or both , to varying degrees. Some would seem to fit what GRRM calls a woods witch.

But there's another category that stands out ,the Völva (pl.Völur ). The anglicized term is Vala , and it echoes in both women's names. Just for a quick reference, wikipedia says.." Völur practiced seiðr, spá and galdr, practices which encompassed shamanism, sorcery, prophecy and other forms of indigenous magic." ..From a quick perusal of a number of sources, it seems some Vala might have skills as a healer , but not all by any means

.

The Vala travelled around freely - alone , or with a retinue of followers. They were honoured and welcomed wherever they went. They would be hired to foresee what was in store for individuals, specific enterprises , etc. ( Even Odin famously consulted a völva to learn what was in store for the gods.) Women seers were consulted as to if and when going to war was auspicious.

Both Val and Dalla seem to fit this category. Mance says he "met" Dalla on his way back from Winterfell. If , in GRRM's world , she's something akin to a Vala , she might have just been on her usual progress when they met , or she may have had a vision leading her to Mance. She is the one who offers Jon wisdom on the use of magic. When Jon tells Val she's to have a giant for a guard , Val responds , "..even Dalla could not boast of that."..Even Dalla , as if Dalla was of such an exalted status , there were hardly any limits to what she could boast of. Yet we're told repeatedly that she is not accorded special status by virtue of being Mance's wife. It stands to reason then , that she had status of her own , and even , possibly , that a good deal of Mance's status came to him through her... He was an outsider, had even been a crow ( not a great recommendation), but she might have provided him an impeccable seal of approval in the eyes of the Free Folk.

This may shed light on the reason Val can set out alone to find Tormund. Jon simply thinks of her as brave , strong and capable , as Ygritte was ... but if a priestess, Val would have the added protection of respect and a degree of immunity to the usual dangers faced by a woman travelling alone... This would explain her air of calm confidence when she sets out. She shows no sign of trepidation ; she's relaxed and assured enough to playfully banter with Jon .

We're told that Val is Dalla's sister , but we don't know if she's a sister by blood , or by vocation. The clothes given to Val by Dalla have a definite ceremonial feel to them. They would be impractical in day to day life ... Fine woven , all white ( like a weirwood ) ... the weirwood pin, which we don't see her wearing at any other time( more than simply a piece of jewelry ?) , the bone knife ( Why bone , when metal would probably be available to her ? Is it more than a utility knife? ). Though she jokes with Jon about not wanting her clothes to get stained, this could be for more important reasons than a woman just not wanting a smudge on her party dress . The garments may be much more than just a nice prezzie from sis - perhaps a mark of Val's attaining some level of proficiency as a priestess , or a rich reward for some priestly service rendered.

Seen in this light, so many things about Val take on new meaning. When she sets out to find Tormund, she tells Jon to look for her at the " first day of the full moon". She may not have had any control over when she set out..Jon had final say in that.." the moon was but half full " . We don't really know if it was waning or waxing. How can she be so sure of her arrival time ? She tells Jon , "I know where I must go. " ..( How ?)

The full moon would be a good time to bring something to fruition( getting the people to the wall ). Does her costume in Tormund's camp imply that she's been conducting some kind of ritual before Jon arrives ? When Jon and Tormund come to terms, it's agreed that Tormund will bring his people through the wall in 3 days time. If they agreed at the full moon , that means the wildlings would be coming through the wall at the new moon , an auspicious time to start a new venture.

( This seems to agree with the practices of the CoTF ( and therefore , with the worship of the Old Gods )..if we read Bran's ADWD chapter at p.449, hardcover , we see that each new phase of his training begins at the new moon .)

Again when Val's setting out, there's an exchange with Jon which , on the surface , is about the little monster. Jon says , " I have heard you singing to him." Val replies , " I was singing to myself. Am I to blame if he listens ? .."

Now , I wouldn't claim Val would never sing to Little Monster , but an account of a völva ritual in the "Saga of Erik the Red" describes singing or chanting ( to attract those she wished to converse with ), and dancing.. (in that case, with support from other women who knew the rituals ), which was duly rewarded by a vision sent by the Gods..

Maybe Val sang to the Monster sometimes, but maybe Jon has unwittingly heard her conducting rituals to locate Tormund..or for other purposes.

Before she leaves she gives Jon a thinly veiled warning against Mel "..Fire is a fickle thing. No one knows which way a flame will go....Do you remember what my sister told you?"

"Yes." A sword without a hilt , with no safe way to hold it..

"Good" ... She seems satisfied, but actually, Jon is thinking Mel is right, a sword without a hilt is better than no sword at all... Of course , if she's a priestess, it may be that Val would not object to some judicious magic..just not Mel's.

She's sure Mel knows about the little monster, and seems to know more about what Mel sees in her fires than Jon does.."Ashes and cinders." says Jon. "Kings and dragons." says Val.... Does Val have some way of knowing about Mance ?

If she's a priestess , she's done pretty well to keep it hidden from Mel.

When she and Jon are riding back from the meeting with Tormund , Jon says "..The hard part still awaits me. The part where I convince mine own to eat this meal I've cooked for them. None of them are going to like the taste , I fear."

"Let me help."

"You have. You brought me Tormund."

" I can do more. ".... ( Really ? To help Jon make the deal palatable to the NW? How ? )

Going back to the powers of the Vala , they apparently could perform sorcery , as well as being seers . Perhaps Val can as well...because I can't see how Val's personal prestige, or possible visionary ability, or religious influence would have the same potency among the Night's Watch as among the Free Folk, so what else could she be speaking of , in that exchange about the NW, if not magic ?

Whatever her position or abilities , she would not appear to specialize in healing. When Dalla is giving birth , Val wants to go for the midwife. When lecturing Jon on Shireen's greyscale , she says he should ask a woods witch if he would know the truth.

This makes me suspect ( and hope ) that Morna the Warrior Witch may have some special expertise in dealing with battle wounds ( or assassination attempt wounds ) ;)

One last vague suggestion that may have interesting implications for Jon. One of the forms of ritual performed by Vala , seiðr , incorporates fertility magic/rites. This type of rite was only very rarely practiced by males ( and they would likely be looked down upon as unmanly ). Some scholars conclude that this means some rituals would require actual intercourse and a male priest / practitioner would automatically be adopting the passive ( woman's) role. As far as I can tell , a male who was simply assisting the priestess , by taking the male role, would suffer no such disdain... ( Maybe a bit of nudge , nudge , wink , wink , ..and maybe a bit of envy .).. I think it was Mance who called Jarl Val's " pet ". I wonder what his actual relationship to her was ?

Tormund tells Jon of Val , " She's too clever for the likes o' you and me." and though it's said in jest, it probably means he does defer to her knowledge, and perhaps ability. And of all the wildlings we've met , it seems only the late Dalla was more highly respected.

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Very good post, and dont forget her interaction with Ghost. Remember when Jon called for Ghost when he was with Val in the Haunted Woods and he would come. Jon thought that it was odd (cant remember exactly what he said) and unnatural. <edit> I also thought well after i read what you posted about if Val is a practioner of the druidic arts then what is the likely hood that she would know of Bloodraven or even Bran?

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Yeah, Jon thinks they look like they belong together and asks her if she's trying to steal Ghost.

This just opens the door to so many questions , for me..I better sleep on it.

( and Thanks. :) )

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alienarea...I don't see Borroq as being in quite the same category , but I have always felt that he'll prove to be helpful to Jon before it's all over. He can familiarize Jon with the "laws" of skinchanging , as he learned them , and with 2 rational people inhabiting their animals, I don't know if those animals will maintain an adversarial stance to each other. He calls Jon "brother" at their first meeting.. seems a far different attitude from Varamyr's " Warg !"

ETA; He could be quite important in the near future.

ThreeMikeHoncho...I'm really curious about how much Val knows, and what she's capable of. I feel sure it's more than appears on the surface , but beyond that, there's a wide range of possibilities.

Last night I was thinking of another bit of her exchange with Jon when she's leaving to find Tormund. She asks him if he killed Jarl the Climber. In reply , he swears it was not his doing .. the wall killed Jarl . She says " So I'd heard. ", but she had to be certain ....Well, who did she hear it from ? I can't quite remember offhand , but wasn't Styr's whole party killed ? If not , they would hardly have had time to make it back to Mance before he attacked.. and after that, Val was in captivity ( and not just penned up with the other run-of-the-mill captives ). So..what the..?? :shocked:

ETA: Without knowing exactly how closely the religion of the Old Gods approximates the Norse model, I'm reminded that in Norse mythology , the Vala Odin consulted was one whose spirit he conjured back from death..which in turn makes me think of Leaf's warning to Bran not to seek to call Ned back from Death... When we read that ,it's easy to think of characters like Beric and Cat..but maybe that's not what Leaf means... and could that be because Bran , being a child, would be too tempted to get caught up in that activity ..while it might be OK for a priestess ,in dire need of answers , who might just have one focused question for her contact ? ....and are there notable differences in this regard between the CoTF version and the human version of the Religion of the Old Gods ?

And, more directly related to your line of thought, even if Val can commune with Bloodraven or Bran on some level , would she recogize them as individuals , or as part of something larger ? Would she know what to ask, to be able to identify them ?

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Agree that Borroq is not in the same quality as Tormund and Val, but if Jon can be healed without resurrection Borroq and Morna seem more likely candidates.

While we are at it, Ghost is extremely aggressive against Borroq's boar. Is this just because the animals are enemies or maybe something else?

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Very interesting, i wonder (if it's not unintentional) that Val's abilities explain her change in eye color (from grey to blue), when dispatching her Jon thinks that they both know its just not wildlings out there, but she doesn't seem worried at all, maybe she has the ability to cloak/glamor herself to be hidden from the others/wights but it changed her eyes to blue...the color of both others(?) and wights eyes

The only thing i don't like about it is if her eye color changed for any reason is that it seems like something a character would notice especially jon who likes her and spent a lot of time around (though most was off screen)

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Loving the connection between these Wilding characters and Old Norse religion. I agree that there is definitely something of concept of the 'mead-hall' in Tormund's titles, and some relation to the Völva/Völur in Dalla and Val's names (Völuspá is one of my all-time favourites).

Perhaps there is also the (related) element of Valkyrie (or Valkyrja, hehe) behind Val? Valkyries are literally 'choosers of the slain', hand-picking which warriors die and which become einherjar......also associated with serving in the mead-hall (related to the 'Lady in the Meadhall' figure also seen serving mead in Beowulf). Not sure exactly how any of that would play into things specifically, but thought I would just put that out there.

Also, Valkyries are often seen as emissaries of Odin, and they are associated with ravens and swans, (swain-maidens....shape-shifting?.....Val's mysterious white dress?).

Honestly, I do think it works better with her as more of a galdrakona rather than a full-fledged valkyrie, but there could be elements of both. :)

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Nice Vala connection to Val bemused. Mother Mole is a woods witch gifted with visions, and who is to stay she is the only one. Val's abilities could be akin to the Ghost of High Heart's, who has the ability to know and dream about current events, even knowing things that would be considered insignificant such as the death of a common woman:

"Dreams," grumbled Lem Lemoncloak, "what good are dreams? Fish women and drowned crows. I had a dream myself last night. I was kissing this tavern wench I used to know. Are you going to pay me for that, old woman?"

"The wench is dead," the woman hissed. "Only worms may kiss her now."

Val probably dreamed or sensed that Jarl was killed, and what Melisandre sees in her flames as well as her intentions.

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Binadas..I think the animals being natural enemies might have something to do with it..But it might make quite a difference if Jon developed his bond further..

Fire Eater .. I really feel more and more that she can have visions..at the least.. And that Dalla could too. Surely Mance must have had something to guide him in the search for the Horn of Joramun ? ( If he was a Norse leader , the first thing he'd probably do would be to consult a vala ) ;)

There's something else beginning to niggle at me..( And I know there's always the danger of following these connections right over a cliff into the Chasm of Crackpottery...) , but still :

1. Just suppose Dalla did go to "meet" Mance based on a vision.There was something about Mance that led her to believe that he was the one who could unite the wildlings and guide them to a new life south of the Wall..

2. I've seen people speculate about Mance ( me , too).. what's his thing about Winterfell , who was his father , could it be a Stark..etc. etc.

3. Jon and Mance are supposedly both bastards , both "deserted " the Watch to join the wildlings ..at least one of them is known to have Stark blood. Mance got them to the wall , but Jon is actually getting them through in numbers, and actually trying to find a way for them to settle in ,instead of having to fight every step of the way against the Northern clans.

4. Jon has shown he can win the wildlings "to him " at the shield hall.

So as Mel seems to have misidentified Stannis in her visions, and may eventually decide Jon is her Man..Could Dalla have misidentified Mance ( as perhaps fulfilling a prophecy of the Free Folk)..and is Val now thinking Jon fills the bill ?

Val seems to know quite a bit about Mel..( Can Val see through her glamors ?) But Mel hasn't shown signs of suspecting anything about Val..yet.

( magical cat-fight at the wall ?..Jon , wake up !) :D

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ThreeMikeHoncho...I'm really curious about how much Val knows, and what she's capable of. I feel sure it's more than appears on the surface , but beyond that, there's a wide range of possibilities.

Last night I was thinking of another bit of her exchange with Jon when she's leaving to find Tormund. She asks him if he killed Jarl the Climber. In reply , he swears it was not his doing .. the wall killed Jarl . She says " So I'd heard. ", but she had to be certain ....Well, who did she hear it from ? I can't quite remember offhand , but wasn't Styr's whole party killed ? If not , they would hardly have had time to make it back to Mance before he attacked.. and after that, Val was in captivity ( and not just penned up with the other run-of-the-mill captives ). So..what the..?? :shocked:

ETA: Without knowing exactly how closely the religion of the Old Gods approximates the Norse model, I'm reminded that in Norse mythology , the Vala Odin consulted was one whose spirit he conjured back from death..which in turn makes me think of Leaf's warning to Bran not to seek to call Ned back from Death... When we read that ,it's easy to think of characters like Beric and Cat..but maybe that's not what Leaf means... and could that be because Bran , being a child, would be too tempted to get caught up in that activity ..while it might be OK for a priestess ,in dire need of answers , who might just have one focused question for her contact ? ....and are there notable differences in this regard between the CoTF version and the human version of the Religion of the Old Gods ?

And, more directly related to your line of thought, even if Val can commune with Bloodraven or Bran on some level , would she recogize them as individuals , or as part of something larger ? Would she know what to ask, to be able to identify them ?

Yeah how would she have heard? Thats a good catch. I am going to go back and reread that part!

The way i look at the old gods is that i think of the norse mythos and take out the individual gods (ala Thor, Odin, ect.). I am not even sure that the old gods are specific deities, but just primal forces of nature, akin to the celtic/pagan religion. There are specific examples of each religion in the worship of the old gods- The wierwood trees seem to parrallel yggrasill-the world tree that connects the different realms in the norse mythos (midgard, asgard, niflel, hel, ect,ect) and the weirwoods can connect someone like Bran to the past, present, and different locations. Another post i read on here equated the others with the sidhe, nature spirits in the celtic religion. Also the giants and the Jotun, the crows and odin, bloodraven and odin, the list goes on and on.

Your right about Bran and his parrellel to Odin/Vala. It seems to me that it is just a forbidden thing for greenseers to do. there really isnt enough info to go on to see if human and Cotf greenseeing is different, i would say it isnt. I am not sure that anyone can safely deal with bringing spirits back from the afterlife. Both Beric and Cat returned deeply flawed, Beric's soul seemed to be burning out and Cat is a shell of her former self consumed with vengence and rage. If Bran tried to call Ned back, where would his spirit go or even manifest <cough>great other<cough>. :eek: jk.

Ok say Val can communicate with BR, would she trust what he says. Words are Wind- the saying had to come from somewhere and when communicating through the trees the greenseer sounds as wind. I can see a similarity between her theoretical nature attunement and mel's prophetic visions. I believe she would take everything that BR would say with skepicism. I believe that the only way that she would know who BR/Bran are is if they told her. Whether she actually does know, i dont know.

<now for some crackpot theory>

I came accross this on Wiki while reading about Celtic religions.

ritual of oak and mistltoe, as described by Pliny the Elder (1st cent AD)

"The druids- that is what they call their magicians- hold nothing more sacred than the mistletoe and a tree on which it is growing, provided it is a Valonia Oak (Wierwood for our purposes)... Mistletoe is rare and whend found it is gathered with great ceremony, and particularly on the sixth day of the moon... Hailing the moon in a native word that means 'healing all things', they prepare a ritual sacrifice and banquet beneath a tree and bring up two white bulls, whose horns are bound for the first time on this occasion. A priest arrayed in white vestments (similar to Val) and climbs the tree and, with a golden sickle, cuts down the mistletoe, which is caught in a white cloak. Then finally they kill the victims, praying to a god to render his gift propitious to those on whom he has bestowed it. They believethat mistletoe given in drink will impart fertility to any animal that is barren and that it is an antidoe to all poisons"

Now, replace the bulls with Theon, mistletoe with Jojen paste, Val in her white garb and visualize Jon's body nearby. Fits dont it!

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@ThreeMikeHoncho

I don't buy into the Jojen paste crackpot theory. Although I do think you've struck a chord in the great ceremony you mentioned among the Celts from whom the First Men seem to get their primary reference, especially the sacrifices being killed with a sickle before the sacred tree. Pliny the Elder, in his description of Celtic rituals, made allusions to the waxing crescent moon, repeatedly referred to in the last ADwD chapter as being as "sharp and thin as the blade of a knife," as an instrument of healing and regeneration. Theon's death,or more likely Asha's, before a heart tree could be an unintentional sacrifice by Stannis, following the rules of "only death can pay for life" mentioned by MIrri Maz Duur, Theon's death could pay for Jon's healing.

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I love this theory, so thank you for sharing. I don't know much about Norse or Celtic religion, so I've never been able to piece together any theories like this on my own, although it does sound likely/interesting. Especially the name Valla itself. That's the biggest indicator for me. I've even tried to look up the name meanings of Val and Dalla individually but they never indicated anything, so this answers a question for me. I figured that GRRM must have just made them up, but neither of them sound like typical wildling names (as opposed to, say, Ygritte).

All through ADWD I kept wondering what Val's use would be in the larger plot. I've heard theories that Val and Dalla could have been part of the Mountain Clans or that they aren't actually wildlings, but I don't like that idea. There seems to be an interesting dynamic between Val and Jon, and I thought it was very telling when Jon thought that Ghost looked like he belonged with Val.

Another interesting thing. The names "Dalla" and "Mance" both have five letters, while "Jon" and "Val" both have three. I don't know if that has any significance, but I think it's an interesting coincidence. Some readers are frustrated by the presence of Val in ADWD, but I feel like she probably has a role to play beyond just "the wildling princess." Otherwise why continue to bring her up?

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So as Mel seems to have misidentified Stannis in her visions, and may eventually decide Jon is her Man..Could Dalla have misidentified Mance ( as perhaps fulfilling a prophecy of the Free Folk)..and is Val now thinking Jon fills the bill ?

Val seems to know quite a bit about Mel..( Can Val see through her glamors ?) But Mel hasn't shown signs of suspecting anything about Val..yet.

( magical cat-fight at the wall ?..Jon , wake up !) :D

I have to say that this is exactly what I began thinking after reading your first post. If most of your points hold true we would certainly be set up for a very interesting interaction between the two immediately following the stabbing. Well done, bemused.

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Awesome thread! I believe you had posted this already on another thread, hadnt you? I think I have discussed about it and yes, I mainly agree with your interpretation, especially about Val. The whole scene when she returns from beyond the Wall is odd, there's so much going on there: Ghost, the clothes Dalla gave to her, the white mask pin...

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Here is another example of norse influence in the story- The Horn of Joramun. Joramungandr was also known as the world serpent and Midgard in norse mythology. Makes me kind of think that the Horn that Victarion has is actually the horn of Joramun due to his horn's physical description and the writings that are inscribed on it.

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This is just great, I have been looking for a possible greater role Val can have as I think her part in this has only just started but not being familiar with these mythologies I couldn't of pieced it together as you have, well done and thank you.

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Binadas. ( magical cat-fight at the wall ?..Jon , wake up !) :D

If Melisandre and Val are going to fight over who will 'revive'/heal/bring back Jon, then I know I would greatly prefer it to be Val (even though we don't know a ton about her yet I just feel like she'd be better at it than Mel, lol!)......I don't want Jon to be the Beric Dondarrion type of undead. :(

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