189 replies to this topic

[Lady&theHound]

I have a theory that Sandor hates Tyrion because Tyrion rescued Sansa from that beating that Joffrey had his knights give her while Sandor had no power to save her, despite saying "enough". What do you guys think?

[Lady&theHound]

... and I've clearly posted this in the wrong forum. Sorry guys.. new here..

[Batman]

He calls him dog, ugly and stupid. Isnt that enough

[Natalie_S]

Sandor is understandably scared of fire and Tyrion put him right in a middle of a raging inferno during the battle of Blackwaters.
i think that's enough to want him dead from his point of view.

[Lyanna Stark]

Batman, on 09 May 2012 - 05:12 AM, said:

He calls him dog, ugly and stupid. Isnt that enough

Well, yes, plus from what we learn he was originally "Cersei's dog" i.e. probably something like Cersei's bodyguard before he became Joffrey's sworn shield, and I doubt Tyrion would go out of his way to be nice to one of Cersei's retaininers, probably very likely the other way around.

We know that the Hound says he thinks there are no gods since they made the Imp and Lady Tanda's daughter, so he's prejudiced against Tyrion as well. Plus they both have a tendency to smartarsery and mean commentary.

Put all of this in a pot, stir, and you have some pretty strong loathing.

Then on top of this you have the Battle of the Blackwater and as the final nail in the coffin, Polliver and the Tickler telling Sandor Sansa was married off to the Imp. I think if he ever finds Tyrion again, poor Tyrion is definitely at risk of emerging from that encounter minus one head.

[cuendillar]

I actually don't think the Hound cares too much if someone calls him 'dog'. He hinted that he considers it a compliment, the only time I've seen him take offense over a name is when somecall calls him 'Ser'. He definitely holds dogs in higher regards than knights.

[Fearsome Fred]

I have a theory that the reason Sandor hates Tyrion is because Tyrion sucks.

[Pomp & Happenstance]

I never got the impression that Sandor hated Tyrion.....any more than he hates everyone else in life.

While I love Sandor, he's got this whole Eeyore (Winny the pooh) thing going on, that makes him seem to hate everyone equally. (With the exception for a character or two, he likes his pretty bird)

[Woman of War]

By Nathalie S.

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Sandor is understandably scared of fire and Tyrion put him right in a middle of a raging inferno during the battle of Blackwaters.
i think that's enough to want him dead from his point of view.

and, even worse, the cripple Tyrion had the courage to do what Sandor wasn't able to, understandably, given his personal history. But before Sandor had expressly stated that he despises the weak and those who cannot defend themselves, they " should die and get out of the way of those who can" (quote Sandor, concerning Lollys and Tyrion), Eichmann could not have said it better.
And so it is extra humiliating for Sandor to be replaced by that cripple as battle commander.

Edited by Woman of War, 09 May 2012 - 09:44 AM.

[Fearsome Fred]

Woman of War, on 09 May 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

and, even worse, the cripple Tyrion had the courage to do what Sandor wasn't able to, understandably, given his personal history. But before Sandor had expressly stated that he despises the weak and those who cannot defend themselves, they " should die and get out of the way of those who can"

The irony, of course, is that Sandor is destined to become a "true knight", defender of the weak, and dragon-slayer.

Tyrion, however, is destined to become a dragon.

[Kittykatknits]

Sandor doesn't mind being called dog, its ser he has a problem with. Sansa explicitly asks him this during the conversation on the serpentine steps.

He has also hated Tyrion for a long time, prior to the start of the series. He speaks negatively of Tyrion whenever he is brought up. Back at the beginning of GoT, Sandor has that "spirits of the air" comment and Tyrion reflects that he is used to jokes like that from Sandor. We are never told exactly why Sandor hates Tyrion though. Certainly, some of the things listed earlier in this thread are part of it but they are not the cause. When Sandor learns that Tyrion married Sansa, he knew it would not have been her choice and quite obviously feels regret that he left her to a fate worse than death. My suspicion, as he has been a retainer of the Lannnisters since he was a kid, is that he knew about Tyrion's marriage to Tysha along with the events of how it ended. If the two ever cross paths again, there is a good chance Tyrion will become very close to Sandor's sword.
Finally, Sandor did not leave the BBW just because he turned craven or was a coward. Sansa says the same thing herself in Storm when she hears him being called craven. She says that is not the case as she knows his secret, he is no craven. When you look at his last several appearances in the books prior to BBW, his desertion should not be that big of a surprise. He met the little bird who helped reawaken his humanity, served under a sadistic little shit, felt shamed by wearing the white cloak, and grew increasinly horrified by some of the Lannister actions. Prior to his desertion, he led three sorties in to the fire and even charged up gangplanks to take out archers by himself. Tyrion asked him to go out again to what would basically have been a suicide mission. I'm not saying that fear didn't play a factor at all just not that it was his only motivation. So, he refused the order, started drinking, and as we saw in Sansa's room later, he is indeed suffering from a psychotic break. His statements at the beginning of their conversation certainly show this. His rage against Tyrion is at his most explicit here too.

[Fearsome Fred]

Woman of War, on 09 May 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

the cripple Tyrion had the courage to do what Sandor wasn't able to

Can a man be brave when he is afraid?

That is the only time a man can be brave.

Tyrion is not afraid of fire.  He is weirdly, madly, fascinated by it.  A fire-induced fit of madness is the true explanation for his actions here

Tyrion actually despises courage.  For instance, he has contempt for people whose courage gets them killed.  Examples include his own servant, who charged bravely into battle, only to get cut down from behind while Tyrion was busy hiding behind a rock.

[JKeats]

Alright, a Tyrion vs. Sandor thread!  Can't wait to see how this turns out.

I mean, that hideous little freak got in the way of asoiaf's TRUE ROMANCE!

Begin the two minutes of hate!

[Woman of War]

I find Sandor's breakdown thoroughly understandable but I admire Tyrion's courage,  not knowing if anyone would be willing to follow the despised dwarf, he was really growing above himself here.
But I am not willing to over-read this truly  cruel quotation of Sandor concerning the weak, it goes along with his regret not to have "fucked Sansa bloody and ripped her heart out" because someone else apparently had what Sandor wanted.
Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to contrast Tyrion as good guy with Sandor as bad guy. Tyrion is the most astonishing character in the books for me but Sandor is thoroughly interesting as well. No moral excuses need to be made to be allowed to like either of them or both, great literary inventions need not be morally approved to be awesome.

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I have a theory that the reason Sandor hates Tyrion is because Tyrion sucks.

sorry, FF but this choice of words is somewhat difficult.  You may be a little overidentifying with Sandor's point of view.You don't like the literary character Tyrion, because you dislike his actions, because his worldview doesn't go along with yours or because he is poorly written or because he is boring? Or do you in general only like the truly white sinless characters who are guaranteed to stay so for the rest of the books? Or does Tyrion make your teeth ache because he triggers some very special point of dislike, i mean there are so many characters who have evil parts in them, actually most of them.
Remember: he is literature, not a person. Therefore his value for the story is the paramount criterium to judge him - and that is huge.
I happen to like that very special character, you don't,  no  problem. But your reasons are not better than mine.

[Patchface12]

I like them both, but my guess is Sandor is a bit sociopathic and simply despises everyone. He knows no one likes Tyrion and that he can get away with insulting him, so he does. And like others have pointed out, Tyrion's snarky and throws his insults back at him.

[Fearsome Fred]

JKeats, on 09 May 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

I mean, that hideous little freak got in the way of asoiaf's TRUE ROMANCE!

I am not a Sandor / Sansa shipper.  I actually would be a bit disappointed if they got together.

However, Sandor's ironic destiny is just too obvious.

[Fearsome Fred]

Woman of War, on 09 May 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

sorry, FF but this choice of words is somewhat difficult.  You may be a little overidentifying with Sandor's point of view.

No.  I just agree with Sandor that Tyrion sucks.  Sandor sucks too, of course, at this point, notwithstanding his ironic destiny.  But that's neither here nor there.

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You don't like the literary character Tyrion, because you dislike his actions, because his worldview doesn't go along with yours or because he is poorly written or because he is boring?

I don't consider him poorly written or boring.

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Or do you in general only like the truly white sinless characters who are guaranteed to stay so for the rest of the books?

What a silly question, with me talking about Sandor's ironic destiny.

But I am of the opinion that Tyrion, unlike Sandor, is destined to sink deeper into depravity.

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Or does Tyrion make your teeth ache because he triggers some very special point of dislike, i mean there are so many characters who have evil parts in them, actually most of them.

Tyrion does not make my teeth ache.  My reasons for disliking him are clear, and require no explanation or apologies.

[Silver Spearwife]

Hmmm...I don't know much about their relationship, but I'll try to speculate.

Sandor is extremely straightforward about who he is. Sure, he keeps a few secrets, but for the most part he despises any sort of deception and falsity. While we know that Tyrion's usually relatively up front about his motives (escape the Eyrie, keep Cersei out of the way so he can restore King's Landing, win the Battle of the Blackwater, escape slavery, etc.), the way he talks and acts makes it seem like he's always got some ulterior motive (he does, sometimes, but not in the way most of the other characters seem to think). Sandor hates that. Plus, making him look like an idiot at the Blackwater and putting Sansa in a difficult, unhappy position probably didn't endear him much to Sandor either, though the latter was way later.

[Sylvan Fox]

I'm guessing that he knows about Tyrion's thing with Tysha, if he's been around the Lannisters for a while. I want to say I can remember another character talking about how horrible Tyrion is based on that, but I can't remember which or when.

Plus, Tyrion is a Lannister. I think a lot of people in Westeros just assume he's every bit as devious, crafty, and heartless as the other Lannisters (are perceived to be), only Tyrion, being also hated by the Lannisters, makes a better target for open hostility.

And that's all before Blackwater. "Hey, Sandor, why don't you and your men run out there into all of those magical green flames again? You know, the ones a whole bunch of you just died in, and that I decided should be there?" And after that, the Imp shames Sandor by deciding to lead the men out there himself, which is the second time Tyrion does something Sandor is afraid to do (the first being saving Sansa from Joffrey). Of course, doing certain things is less dangerous to Tyrion than it is to Sandor (standing up to Joffrey, not the battle). Why? Because Tyrion is of noble birth. I don't think that's lost on Sandor. He seems to have put some thought into his social station, as he tells Arya in ASOS that Robb might make him a lordling. I don't think he ever mentions anything about wanting to be lord before that. I figure he was influenced by a combination of some half-formed plan to join Robb and rescue/possibly marry Sansa, and the fact that a dwarf has more freedom than Sandor does even though Sandor could probably punt Tyrion several yards.

Now he knows that Tyrion married Sansa, and probably realizes that she was forced into this, as it's unlikely she would volunteer to marry into the family who killed her family. That's already cruel. And then assuming that Sandor knows (well, knows what most people know, which isn't actually the truth) about Tysha, he probably thinks Sansa's life just turned into a far more hellish nightmare than it already was. Add in Sandor's violent temperament and Tyrion just really, really needs to stay away from Sandor in the future.

[Lyanna Stark]

Sylvan Fox, on 09 May 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

I'm guessing that he knows about Tyrion's thing with Tysha, if he's been around the Lannisters for a while. I want to say I can remember another character talking about how horrible Tyrion is based on that, but I can't remember which or when.

It's Littlefinger when he snatches Sansa out of Kings Landing. He indicates that he knows the Tysha story. It can hardly be a huge secret either since 200 Lannister guardsmen where involved and Tywin meant it to be a shaming of Tyrion.

Woman of War, on 09 May 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

But I am not willing to over-read this truly  cruel quotation of Sandor concerning the weak, it goes along with his regret not to have "fucked Sansa bloody and ripped her heart out" because someone else apparently had what Sandor wanted.

Yep, Sandor does spew a lot of bollocks in his "get out of the way of the strong" speech and on this occasion he was going off on a rant to Sansa and she raged back at him, rightfully so. It's fairly certain the death scene was a similar drama moment and should not be taken 100% literally. Arya even remarks that although he keeps on threatening to hit her and/or sell her to the silent sisters, he never does any of those things.