465 replies to this topic

[eyeheartsansa]

I guess you could say their 'industry' is protection/extortion.  or 'exchanging gifts' as they like to think of it.

[Apple Martini]

eyeheartsansa, on 11 May 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

I'm having trouble dissecting this sentence.  You mean the mereen story arc in general is frustrating?

No, the "I'm but a young girl ..." line she uses every third time she opens her mouth. I didn't write it in the best way, but that's what I meant.

Edited by Apple Martini, 11 May 2012 - 01:52 PM.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Apple Martini, on 11 May 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

No, because he was using the proper diplomatic channels. He did not force her to marry him and then starve her to death, nor was he planning to. His overtures were absolutely nothing like Ramsay's. That you can even begin to see any sort of comparison between the two is ... I don't know what.

And during the Rebellion, until Robert won, Stannis WAS a "traitor," to the Targaryens.

Of course I see the difference between asking a girl on a date and flaying her. I am not defending Ramsay. I am defending... Ned Stark and other falsely accused traitors. Ramsay was a murderer, rapist and broke the kings peace in his name. He took Winterfell in his father's name, and in the name of King Joffrey. And if Stannis (which was a brother, I'm talking about father and son) was only a traitor then and not now because Robert won, well Roose defeated Robb ("Jaime Lannister sends his regards"), so shouldn't he not be a traitor anymore?

Apple Martini, on 11 May 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

If she's "just a litle girl," she has no fucking business doing what she's doing. It's a cloying, eyeroll-inducing ploy she uses to cow the stupid within the story, and it gets old. She hasn't "picked up" anything yet, that I'm aware of. The actual Harpy is as yet unpunished; Hizdahr's just a stooge. Victarion is more interested in stealing dragons and forcing her to marry him, while she might not find the Martell "pawns" so accommodating if and when she meets them in Westeros.

I think it's cute when she says it. Your right the Harpy isn't punished. Hizdahr was a stooge, causing Dany to be a stooge of a stooge, but she left and is no longer in their power. Martell was out of his fucking mind and i have as much sympothy for him as i fear The slower then Hodor Prince or Vipers bastard kids. And furthermore the Martells (mayhaps) would ally with Aegon who would ally or fight Dany, I don't see the Frog's death haunting her

Edited by Grumpkin Ahai, 11 May 2012 - 02:04 PM.

[Dr. Pepper]

Grumpkin Ahai, on 11 May 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

Of course I see the difference between asking a girl on a date and flaying her. I am not defending Ramsay. I am defending... Ned Stark and other falsely accused traitors. Ramsay was a murderer, rapist and broke the kings peace in his name. He took Winterfell in his father's name, and in the name of King Joffrey. And if Stannis (which was a brother, I'm talking about father and son) was only a traitor then and not now because Robert won, well Roose defeated Robb ("Jaime Lannister sends his regards"), so shouldn't he not be a traitor anymore?

Roose, and by default Ramsay, were still sworn to House Stark when Ramsay turned on Ser Rodrick, took Lady Hornwood's lands by force and burned Winterfell.  That makes him a traitor.  Once Roose defeated Robb, it's a different story, but it still doesn't magically erase the treasonous acts he committed before.  Just as Stannis was a traitor before Robert claimed the throne isn't magically erased from history.  They can't be now tried as traitors because the kings they were traitors to are dead as doornails.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Dr. Pepper, on 11 May 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

Roose, and by default Ramsay, were still sworn to House Stark when Ramsay turned on Ser Rodrick, took Lady Hornwood's lands by force and burned Winterfell.  That makes him a traitor.  Once Roose defeated Robb, it's a different story, but it still doesn't magically erase the treasonous acts he committed before.  Just as Stannis was a traitor before Robert claimed the throne isn't magically erased from history.  They can't be now tried as traitors because the kings they were traitors to are dead as doornails.

For sure everybody is a traitor to at least 1 of the 6 proclaimed monarchs. But if we look at the basics Ramsay is not a knight, not a lord, not even a Bolton. He owes loyalty to Roose, that's it. Attacking Lady Hornwood is an act of rape and murder not treason. When Ramsay chopped off Rodricks arm Roose was already loyal to the Lannisters. Now even if he did commit treason against the Starks (which he didn't) I agree that history is written by the winners

[RhaenysBalerion]

Daenerys has no such thing. Her plan is to take back the Iron Throne. When, how and to what ends is all darkness in her pretty head.

[Dr. Pepper]

QuaitheTheShadow, on 11 May 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

Assuming they're Mereenese and nothing more - that they didn't give the orders?

They've lived their entire lives profiting from the enslavement and misery of others.

Do they deserve to die for that alone? I don't think so. But does Dany's decision that they do deserve to die for that give me deep reservations about her moral character? No. She feels that she was once a slave. She's in the company of slaves. She's the 'mother' of the slaves.

She's making them pay for slavery with blood - the 163 lives for 163 lives symbolizes this. That's what Meeren owed. Poetic old school justice.

I still can't understand how it's justice to crucify 163 random people.  Dany has no idea who these random people are.  She doesn't question them.  She doesn't even ask whether or not these people were involved in the slave trade.  Nor does she explain why she's doing what she's doing.  This gives her the reputation that people are fucked even if they surrender.  What's even more ridiculous about this 'act of justice' is that she does nothing to actually disenfranchise the slavers.  She allows them to keep their homes and property (should they be able to hold onto it), she receives and heeds counsel from the noble elite and not at all from the former Meereenese slaves.  The only former slave who's advice she considers is Missandei, and Missandei isn't from Meereen.  She goes on to marry a former slave owner who's sole purpose is to reopen a business venture that thrives on the use of slaves.  All of her actions in Meereen now makes the so-called justice of crucifying random people (who may have had nothing to do with slaving) to be nothing more than an emotional and disgusting act of brutality.

No, true poetic justice would have been to immediately seize all property of the elite, redistribute it amongst the freed slaves, set up training for the freedmen to take over businesses and require that the slavers and nobles work as servants to the city and the freedmen for 163 days, weeks, or months.

[Lyanna Stark]

Apple Martini, on 11 May 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

Say she goes to Westeros and demands three Lannister bannermen in exchange for Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys. She ends up hanging Lyle Crakehall, Addam Marbrand and Gawen Westerling. Was justice done? I mean, Lannister bannermen killed her family members, and she killed three Lannister bannermen. So she must have punished the guilty parties. Right?

I don't think that would be justice, but as it would make her fail massively in ever sitting the Iron Throne, I imagine you would approve?

On a more serious note, Dany really, really needs advice because of these sort of stupid ideas which are basically all Viserys'. Even in Mereen, a lot of her ideas about ruling and how Westeros is comes from what she learnt during childhood and from Viserys. And as know, most of that is everything from mostly correct, to twisted or outright wrong.

Even if I don't think the scenario you mentioned will happen, a potential similar one could happen if Dany doesn't get the correct information and manages to grasp what it means. I tend to think it's not because Dany is evil, far from it, but because she simply doesn't know better. She often sucks at ruling, even if she tries her best. A lot of the time, it's not even her fault that she's bad at it.

I think the "is she self serving or evil" is pretty important after all, since we know that it is likely Westeros will face even worse perils than the War of the Five Kings, what with the Others. If Dany is willing to do what she can to save the kingdom, and I think she will ultimately make that choice, then I think she's worthy of ruling it, if she can manage to smarten up and get some better advisors. Same would go for Jon Snow, or even Stannis (although Stannis would make a dreadful king. Sorry Stannis!).

[Dr. Pepper]

Grumpkin Ahai, on 11 May 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

For sure everybody is a traitor to at least 1 of the 6 proclaimed monarchs. But if we look at the basics Ramsay is not a knight, not a lord, not even a Bolton. He owes loyalty to Roose, that's it. Attacking Lady Hornwood is an act of rape and murder not treason. When Ramsay chopped off Rodricks arm Roose was already loyal to the Lannisters. Now even if he did commit treason against the Starks (which he didn't) I agree that history is written by the winners

Ok, fine, you win.  Ramsay was not castellan of the Dreadfort and the Dreadfort and the Boltons were never sworn to the Starks and Ramsay never turned on Rodrick, the castellan of Winterfell.  Course, if these things didn't happen, then Robb wouldn't have fucked up and married Jeyne and then Roose wouldn't have had his opportunity to turn his cloak.  Roose did so after Ramsay burned Winterfell.

I'll refrain from commenting on this line of the discussion as long as it exists within this thread.

Edited by Dr. Pepper, 11 May 2012 - 03:15 PM.

[Euphail]

Dr. Pepper, on 11 May 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

snip

No, true poetic justice would have been to immediately seize all property of the elite, redistribute it amongst the freed slaves, set up training for the freedmen to take over businesses and require that the slavers and nobles work as servants to the city and the freedmen for 163 days, weeks, or months.

and have advocated the exact same thing in other threads. Dany takes the city, destroys the economy, provides no method for stability, economic activity or liquidity, enables the previous oligopoly to maintain their wealth and expects them to support her. This alienates her base (the freed slaves), and is surprised that she is having trouble holding the city? Idiotic. Oh well Tyrion is there to save the day.


ETA: I'm harping on her decisions, but to be honest, they seem natural to her character.

Edited by Euphail, 11 May 2012 - 03:14 PM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Dr. Pepper, on 11 May 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

.  She goes on to marry a former slave owner who's sole purpose is to reopen a business venture that thrives on the use of slaves.  All of her actions in Meereen now makes the so-called justice of crucifying random people (who may have had nothing to do with slaving) to be nothing more than an emotional and disgusting act of brutality.

You mean, Dany's rule in Meereen has been crappy and she didn't succeed at all? Pretty much yes.

But she agrees with that herself. She *hates* what she has done in the chapter where she marries Hizdahr. She basically acknowledges that the whole Meereen ruling thing has turned into a fiasco. Things are shite and she feels like shite in a revolting marriage. Her dragons are imprisoned and she doesn't know what to do with them. She mostly puts a brace face on it, but look at her relationship with Daario. It's 100% escapism from the shitstorms and drudgery she has to deal with.

What Dany needs is the slate wiped clean so she can start again (for us readers: I hope it will be somewhere else than Slavers Bay). And a dragon trainer.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 11 May 2012 - 03:22 PM.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Dr. Pepper, on 11 May 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

Ok, fine, you win.

Perfect!

Dr. Pepper, on 11 May 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

Ramsay was not castellan of the Dreadfort and the Dreadfort and the Boltons were never sworn to the Starks and Ramsay never turned on Rodrick, the castellan of Winterfell.  Course, if these things didn't happen, then Robb wouldn't have fucked up and married Jeyne and then Roose wouldn't have had his opportunity to turn his cloak.  Roose did so after Ramsay burned Winterfell.

I'll refrain from commenting on this line of the discussion as long as it exists within this thread.

Ahh I saw what you did there.
I know we shouldnt hijack threads but I've created  2 ramsay threads and watched them both get blocked, and we are all on the same page regarding the OP. Robb married Westerling after Bran/Rickon died, so Ramsay turned on Rodrick after Roose planned on giving Robb Jaime Lannisters regards. I see no reason why Ramsay owes Robb any allegiance, and Robb should have seen that as well. Ramsay never came to Winterfell to pledge his support therefore his spying, raping, killing and  fighting like a craven  is wrong, evil, etc, but not treasonous

[Dr. Pepper]

Lyanna Stark, on 11 May 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

You mean, Dany's rule in Meereen has been crappy and she didn't succeed at all? Pretty much yes.

But she agrees with that herself. She *hates* what she has done in the chapter where she marries Hizdahr. She basically acknowledges that the whole Meereen ruling thing has turned into a fiasco. Things are shite and she feels like shite in a revolting marriage. Her dragons are imprisoned and she doesn't know what to do with them. She mostly puts a brace face on it, but look at her relationship with Daario. It's 100% escapism from the shitstorms and drudgery she has to deal with.

What Dany needs is the slate wiped clean so she can start again (for us readers: I hope it will be somewhere else than Slavers Bay). And a dragon trainer.

For me, the infuriating part is that she recognizes that it's all turned into a fiasco and that marrying Hizdarhr will not solve her problems (and will actually create new problems!) but she doesn't do anything about it.  She's the goddamn queen of Meereen.  She doesn't have to honor her agreement with Hizdahr.  She can use that 90 days to create to plan and scheme a way to overthrow the nobility of the city for good and find herself a former slave to ally with. Why does she keep pandering to the group of people who owned the slaves she sought to free!  ARGH!!!!!

I can't fault her for not knowing what to do with the dragons because books on dragons are exceedingly rare.  I think this is where Tyrion might be useful because he's read them. It's too bad Doran never gave Quentyn the book on dragons.  I also can't fault her for her schmoozing with Daario. I do think that the fan backlash against her for taking Daario as a paramour is a bit much.  A queen needs some sexing just as much as any man.  

Grumpkin Ahai, on 11 May 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Perfect!
Ahh I saw what you did there.
I know we shouldnt hijack threads but I've created  2 ramsay threads and watched them both get blocked, and we are all on the same page regarding the OP. Robb married Westerling after Bran/Rickon died, so Ramsay turned on Rodrick after Roose planned on giving Robb Jaime Lannisters regards. I see no reason why Ramsay owes Robb any allegiance, and Robb should have seen that as well. Ramsay never came to Winterfell to pledge his support therefore his spying, raping, killing and  fighting like a craven  is wrong, evil, etc, but not treasonous

Yeah, I was unnecessarily snarky.  Sorry for that.

Will you bump your Ramsay thread?  I'll jump in there.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Dr. Pepper, on 11 May 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

Will you bump your Ramsay thread?  I'll jump in there.

No, I'm about to peace out for a while. I guess I'll start a Ramsay thread next time im online though

Dr. Pepper, on 11 May 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

Yeah, I was unnecessarily snarky.  Sorry for that.

No need to be sorry for acting snarky, us Grumkins love Snarks! Well, you know... untill they attacked us. However they are not traitors becuase of the technicality of....

[PatrickStormborn]

Lyanna Stark, on 11 May 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

You mean, Dany's rule in Meereen has been crappy and she didn't succeed at all? Pretty much yes.

But she agrees with that herself. She *hates* what she has done in the chapter where she marries Hizdahr. She basically acknowledges that the whole Meereen ruling thing has turned into a fiasco. Things are shite and she feels like shite in a revolting marriage. Her dragons are imprisoned and she doesn't know what to do with them. She mostly puts a brace face on it, but look at her relationship with Daario. It's 100% escapism from the shitstorms and drudgery she has to deal with.

What Dany needs is the slate wiped clean so she can start again (for us readers: I hope it will be somewhere else than Slavers Bay). And a dragon trainer.

I pretty much agree with all of this. I do think it should be mentioned, however, that for a very brief time Dany actually managed to create peace in Meereen -- which is far more than any rulers have done in Westeros as of yet! Yes, her peace was diluted and not what she wanted, but it was still peace (until Drogon showed up).

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Grumpkin Ahai, on 11 May 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Then we are reading some depressing ass books. In fiction, especially fantasy, good prevails

Uh, yeah, they're hella depressing.  The only thing that will cheer me up is reading about the means-justified-the-ends folks destroyed in a hail of, uh, fire and blood.  Guess that makes me a Dany fan, or, at least, a dragon fan.

Regarding Dany and her need to get heirs – she's how old in ADWD?  17?  I don't think her biological clock is going to run out soon, in fact, I believe the current thinking is that the best time for a woman to have a child is when she's in her mid-twenties.  I also think it might be hard to go a-conquering with an infant or two in arms, not to mention that they'd be liabilities as potential hostages.  More important, for the story, though, is that she believed she was barren, so why would a barren woman be thinking about heirs of her body anyway?

I'm sure GRRM had any number of reasons for inventing Aegon IV and his legion of bastards.  There's the introduction of the Blackfyres, which keeps us all guessing about Aegon VI in this series, there's back story for Bloodraven, the Blackwoods and the Brackens. But because GRRM had Aegon IV legitimize all his bastards on his death bed, one can conclude that there are Targs all over Westeros.  If and when Dany has time to think about an heir, and can't produce one of her own, all she has to do is a little research and she can find cousins galore.  Shite, she can make Belegere Oterys, the Black Pearl of Braavos her damn heir.  At least Belegere wouldn't close all the brothels.

danm_999, on 11 May 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

I have no doubt they care little for the commoners, but do you seriously think Tywin or Robb would have executed people without at least bothering to find out whether they were guilty? Robb's honour wouldn't allow him to do that, Tywin's pragmatism wouldn't allow him to do that.

Tywin wasn't that damn concerned about the guilt or innocence of his own son.  Tyrion's trial was complete a mockery of justice – the judges were interested parties, the testimony was perjured, Tyrion had no advocate -- and trial by combat is just the luck of the draw.  Sooooo I don't think the people meeting out so-called justice in Westeros are that concerned with the finding the truth, any more than Dany appears to be.

Apple Martini, on 11 May 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

Catelyn, by Roose's words about Jaime, had reason to think that Jaime was involved in Robb's murder, and Brienne's possession of Jaime's sword didn't make her look good. On the surface, UnCat had decent reason to think Brienne was an oathbreaker. And as vengeful as she is, I can't see her killing, say, Roslin Frey.

Oh damn . . .

Grumpkin Ahai, on 11 May 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

For sure everybody is a traitor to at least 1 of the 6 proclaimed monarchs. But if we look at the basics Ramsay is not a knight, not a lord, not even a Bolton. He owes loyalty to Roose, that's it. Attacking Lady Hornwood is an act of rape and murder not treason. When Ramsay chopped off Rodricks arm Roose was already loyal to the Lannisters. Now even if he did commit treason against the Starks (which he didn't) I agree that history is written by the winners

Oh, the "I did it for Daddy" rationale.  I'm so fond of that (see above).

Everyone owes allegiance to their sovereign.  Period.  A son that commits treason against his king, or even his liege lord, on the orders of his father or to curry the favor of his father, is a traitor, and he's as guilty of treason as his father.

Edited by Sand Snake No. 9, 11 May 2012 - 06:25 PM.

[Thunderfist]

Sand Snake No. 9, on 11 May 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

Tywin wasn't that damn concerned about the guilt or innocence of his own son.  Tyrion's trial was complete a mockery of justice – the judges were interested parties, the testimony was perjured, Tyrion had no advocate -- and trial by combat is the luck of the draw.  Sooooo I don't think the people meeting out so-called justice in Westeros are that concerned with the finding the truth.

We will never really know the truth about this though. There was talk about sending Tyrion to the wall, at least Kevan Lannister seemed to believe that the offer was valid. So Tywin might have believed that Tyrion was innocent and planned to send him somewhere he would be relatively safe, or he might not have given a rats ass about what happened to Tyrion. Tywin got killed before we ever found out.

[Apple Martini]

Lyanna Stark, on 11 May 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

I don't think that would be justice, but as it would make her fail massively in ever sitting the Iron Throne, I imagine you would approve?

Even if I don't think the scenario you mentioned will happen, a potential similar one could happen if Dany doesn't get the correct information and manages to grasp what it means.

The point of the anecdote was to present a somewhat more personalized parallel to what Dany did. I sincerely think that a lot of the placid acceptance of what she did is in large part because the people of Slaver's Bay have very little in the way of individuality to readers. They all run together and with few exceptions, we're not emotionally invested in any of them. So I presented a hypothetical situation that would mirror what she did in Meereen with the slavers, only using people from Westeros whose names we know and with whom we're familiar. I didn't intend for it to come off like something I thought would ever happen.

Lyanna Stark, on 11 May 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

What Dany needs is the slate wiped clean so she can start again (for us readers: I hope it will be somewhere else than Slavers Bay). And a dragon trainer.

I get what you're saying here, but if GRRM gives Dany an escape clause in Meereeen — just burn the sucker down and hightail it, for example — with absolutely no consequences for her fuck-ups, I'm not going to be very happy. I don't like the idea of her getting a "do-over" without some sort of rebuke for her mistakes. Just about everyone else in the series has had to face consequences for their errors — exile, imprisonment, poverty, death, whatever — and she should be no exception.

PatrickStormborn, on 11 May 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

I pretty much agree with all of this. I do think it should be mentioned, however, that for a very brief time Dany actually managed to create peace in Meereen -- which is far more than any rulers have done in Westeros as of yet! Yes, her peace was diluted and not what she wanted, but it was still peace (until Drogon showed up).

Except that that peace played right into the Harpy's hands. You can see the plan a mile away. Suggest that Dany should marry Hizdahr, who comes from a "good family," and then say that by doing so, the city will be peaceful for 90 days. That Dany never put two and two together (marriage to Hizdahr caused the peace, but the Grace was the one who pushed the marriage) is just ... face-palming. Keep the city peaceful for 90 days to honor the agreement. Marry Dany to Hizdahr. Wait a requisite amount of time. Assassinate Dany. Keep Hizdahr as the king and rule the city through him. It obviously didn't work out that way, but to me, that was clearly the intent. Wise counsel, my ass.

Edited by Apple Martini, 11 May 2012 - 07:12 PM.

[Dr. Pepper]

Sand Snake No. 9, on 11 May 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

Regarding Dany and her need to get heirs – she's how old in ADWD?  17?  I don't think her biological clock is going to run out soon, in fact, I believe the current thinking is that the best time for a woman to have a child is when she's in her mid-twenties.  I also think it might be hard to go a-conquering with an infant or two in arms, not to mention that they'd be liabilities as potential hostages.  More important, for the story, though, is that she believed she was barren, so why would a barren woman be thinking about heirs of her body anyway?

If and when Dany has time to think about an heir, and can't produce one of her own, all she has to do is a little research and she can find cousins galore.  Shite, she can make Belegere Oterys, the Black Pearl of Braavos her damn heir.  At least Belegere wouldn't close all the brothels.

No one has said she needs to get preggers right now at this very minute.  It's about whether or not she has considered the matter of succession.  Even if all her plan entails is thinking that matters of succession are not important for her cause in Westeros, that's still a damn plan.  Look at Meereen.  If she chose to stay there, what is the point of all of her work if she dropped dead of the pale mare plague tomorrow if she has no thought about who would succeed her?  I don't even care if her plan is stupid, it could be her putting Ser Pounce as her successor, but she should have one.  Anyone trying to claim and maintain a throne should have one.  Her plan for succession in Astapor didn't work out, but at least it was something.  It's not as though she's Euron who just wants to be king of the world for his own end.  She's got a noble cause- eradicating slavery - and her freed slaves will be having a good butthurt if she drops dead tomorrow and she's not indicated a successor.

[Lyanna Stark]

PatrickStormborn, on 11 May 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

I pretty much agree with all of this. I do think it should be mentioned, however, that for a very brief time Dany actually managed to create peace in Meereen -- which is far more than any rulers have done in Westeros as of yet! Yes, her peace was diluted and not what she wanted, but it was still peace (until Drogon showed up).

Yes, she did. Her ineptitude to play the Game ruined that (and outside influences) but Dany's basic view on ruling is not a bad one. She wants to do right by her people. She wants them to prosper. That's a huge contrast to Joffrey, Renly, Robert etc. They cared little (or less ) for the people, but Dany actually does. For all her Fire and Blood antics, she helps feed refugees, she despairs over not having enough food for everyone, she hates having to close the gates to Meereen to protect it from the flux. Even though Stannis feels he has to save the realm, he cares little for smallfolk or normal people's suffering. To him they seem more a means to an end. Jon Snow's experience with the wildlings enables him to feel the same though. He knows people are people, regardless if they are wildlings, westerosi or something else. Dany's experience with various groups of people have taught her something similar. Humanity is universal. I think it's an important distinction. We see Arya and Sansa having similar experiences where they learn to appreciate people of various background and stations in life.

Apple Martini, on 11 May 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

I get what you're saying here, but if GRRM gives Dany an escape clause in Meereeen — just burn the sucker down and hightail it, for example — with absolutely no consequences for her fuck-ups, I'm not going to be very happy. I don't like the idea of her getting a "do-over" without some sort of rebuke for her mistakes. Just about everyone else in the series has had to face consequences for their errors — exile, imprisonment, poverty, death, whatever — and she should be no exception.

I agree with most of that, so lets look at what her fuckups are. Apart from being a failboat at the Game of Thrones. Rereading Dany's chapters in ADWD, she's insanely unhappy and lonely. She mostly puts a brave face on it, but apart from early AGOT when she was suicidal, it just feels like she's sleepwalking around in hopeless misery. You think Dany needs to suffer for her mistakes, fair enough, but I'd say she already has. Meereen makes her miserable. Everything she hoped for has turned to ashes, the people she meant to save is suffering, the ruling she meant to master is getting completely out of hand, the dragons she loves as her own children are going feral, she's insanely desperately lonely. She goes all AGOT Sansa on her wedding day, thinking "if this was a song, Daario would cut down the guards and whisk me away from Hizdahr".

I know you are no Dany fan, but even so, I think it would be a difficult thing to claim she's anywhere near happy or content, or that she's not suffering.

Quote

Except that that peace played right into the Harpy's hands. You can see the plan a mile away. Suggest that Dany should marry Hizdahr, who comes from a "good family," and then say that by doing so, the city will be peaceful for 90 days. That Dany never put two and two together (marriage to Hizdahr caused the peace, but the Grace was the one who pushed the marriage) is just ... face-palming. Keep the city peaceful for 90 days to honor the agreement. Marry Dany to Hizdahr. Wait a requisite amount of time. Assassinate Dany. Keep Hizdahr as the king and rule the city through him. It obviously didn't work out that way, but to me, that was clearly the intent. Wise counsel, my ass.

Yep, I agree. Dany doesn't see the plan since it doesn't occur to her that people would think that way or plan that far ahead. Her mistake with Brown Ben Plumm is similar in nature. It's really interesting to see how quickly Tyrion realises what Brown Ben is about, and Dany just misses it completely, even if Brown Ben comes out and tells her himself. Dany in ADWD made three huge mistakes as I can see it: the Green Grace (obviously), Brown Ben Plumm and not treating better with the Dornish.

I actually think one reason she is not really good at playing the Game in Meereen is partly because she's just too focused on herself and her misery. Some of the things she does are things I'd expect from a person suffering from depression, or at least stress induced depression problems. She tries escapism, she hardly eats, she wallows in misery, she almost walks around in a dreamworld at times, etc. She often even splits her "Dany" persona from her "Queen" persona, as if the life in Meereen is literally ripping her apart.

Of course,it doesn't help she also has fail advisors. Had she had someone like Varys, Littlefinger, Tyrion or Tywin the Green Grace would have been eliminated faster than you could say "Oops I did it again".

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 12 May 2012 - 04:16 AM.