56 replies to this topic

[Wintersun777]

I don't know, I think it's kinda blasphemous to say that Osha and the Reeds aren't important charcters in the series.

[madman2711]

I really care for almost all characters although it seems that GRRM has some grudge with the Starks

I dont think that some characters can be cut just because we dont like them

[Fengari]

I see no problems with cutting the Reeds with the information we now know from the published books. In the books, they served four purposes:
1. friends for Bran, so he got to be a kid as well as 'the Lord of Winterfell'
2. Jojen for the greendreams and the (partial) explanation of Bran's wolf dreams.
3. Meera for the history exposition
4. Meera as 'provider' (hunter) during the trip north.

1: the friendship is not crucial to the plotlines, and with Bran being older in the series, it is more believable he could turn in this serious 'all work, no play' little lord, certainly with all he's been through already.
2: Bran already got the greendream that really mattered, and seeing how interested Osha is in the three-eyed crow/raven dreams, she probably knows a little something about that so she could take that part. Yes, she is afraid to go back north of the Wall, but that is because she knows what is out there, and if she thinks Bran will be able to help with that problem, that makes a pretty strong motivation to take him there anyway.
3: history exposition can be given by practically anyone, and preferably (in a TV series) not too long before it actually matters, otherwise everyone will have forgotten it. I'm expecting Howland Reed to show up eventually, and as well as giving the information we still miss in the books (or confirm our theories), in the series he can also give the information that the book readers already knew from before.
4: it is plain that Osha can provide.

So, with the information we have now, the Reeds can be cut.
The biggest problem is that we don't know what's yet to come in the next books for Meera and Jojen. We can assume D&D have an idea about that (they did have a talk with GRRM about what's to come), so it is not something we need to worry about, let them do that...

My guess is the Reeds (or maybe Meejen/Jora Reed) will show up next season, but if they don't, I'll happily assume it is because they won't ever become crucial.

As for the doubling back: I really hope they do. Bran and Rickon seeing their home destroyed would make a very powerful emotional moment.

[Zod]

Are the direwolves able to provide? Like, hunt animals, and then drag their dead carcasses back to Bran and Rickon.

[Onion Smuggler]

Could the Reeds be cut? Yes

Should they? No way, the Reeds are really interesting characters and I'm sure they are going to have a bigger part to play. Don't you want to know how Jojen dies?!

[protar]

I think the Reeds will be compressed into one character, but they can't be cut completely. Why? The Knight of the laughing tree that's why. Considering D+D have already made the stupid mistake of cutting out the TOJ, they need to put emphasis on this in order to make R+L=J seem a bit more plausible. It'll just come completely out of the left field otherwise. And anyone who says that we don't need the Reeds for that story is wrong. Sorry but you are. No one else knows about the story. You expect Osha to have heard it? Not to mention the fact that without the KotLT Bran's story is reduced to virtually nothing in S3 up until Queenscrown.

[Zod]

protar, on 13 May 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

I think the Reeds will be compressed into one character, but they can't be cut completely. Why? The Knight of the laughing tree that's why. Considering D+D have already made the stupid mistake of cutting out the TOJ, they need to put emphasis on this in order to make R+L=J seem a bit more plausible. It'll just come completely out of the left field otherwise. And anyone who says that we don't need the Reeds for that story is wrong. Sorry but you are. No one else knows about the story. You expect Osha to have heard it? Not to mention the fact that without the KotLT Bran's story is reduced to virtually nothing in S3 up until Queenscrown.

What's the TOJ?

And why does everyone believe in R + L = J?

[Fengari]

protar, on 13 May 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

I think the Reeds will be compressed into one character, but they can't be cut completely. Why? The Knight of the laughing tree that's why. Considering D+D have already made the stupid mistake of cutting out the TOJ, they need to put emphasis on this in order to make R+L=J seem a bit more plausible. It'll just come completely out of the left field otherwise. And anyone who says that we don't need the Reeds for that story is wrong. Sorry but you are. No one else knows about the story. You expect Osha to have heard it? Not to mention the fact that without the KotLT Bran's story is reduced to virtually nothing in S3 up until Queenscrown.

So you're saying they can't be cut based on a theory that has not proven to be true yet in the books. Don't get me wrong, I do believe it's true, but as it hasn't played out yet in the books, you can't use it as a fact yet.

I don't think we will get the KotLT story. I don't think leaving out the ToJ was a 'stupid mistake' either. In a TV series that isn't even sure to get to the point in the story where it may or may not matter, it would not be wise to start including background stories like that already. There's too much info for some viewers as it is, no need to add to the confusion.
After all, as SOS will be spread over 2 seasons, and we can assume FFC and DWD will also take at least 2, that means it will be at least 4 years before this info becomes relevant. For the general TV audience, that is too much time to remember a detail that didn't seem very relevant at the time...
Don't forget that people like us, who want to dig deep into the story, are a minority. The registered members of this forum constitute 1% of the show's viewers, and that is going by the official ratings, so not including people who see the episodes later or through alternative channels.

Maybe it was even GRRM who asked for it not to be included. If the scene of the ToJ and the story of the KotLT were included in a condensed rendition of the story like the series is, that would make it very clear it is very important. Which would mean we theorists would be even more sure the theory is right. I think GRRM does not want us to be absolutely sure before he is ready to make his big reveal.

[dansnow]

White Harbors Wrath, on 12 May 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

Has there ever been a book series with stronger female roles than ASOIAF? Not sure where we're not seeing gender reversal...GRRM has about as many powerful females packed in as he believably can before we would be in Wonder Woman Amazon territory.

My point isn't about strong female characters though, because although AGOT has many they still fit the stereotypes cersei/cat are the mother archetype. Dany is specifically called "the mother of dragons" once again pushing her into the same role. Arya is on a path that's so dark she doesn't fit the hole left without Meera  imo. Sansa fills the damsel in distress who learns to defend herself within her social context role. Brienne and asha start to defy it by being warriors but Meera takes it a step further.
What is so cool about Meera is that she is the caregiver, she hunts and without her the rest couldn't survive in the wild for a second. That's why she's different than the rest, there is no other female caregiver. And with osha I don't see that role being filled, which is lame because it adds an interesting element. Just my take though.

Edited by dansnow, 14 May 2012 - 02:54 AM.

[Zod]

White Harbors Wrath, on 12 May 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

Has there ever been a book series with stronger female roles than ASOIAF? Not sure where we're not seeing gender reversal...GRRM has about as many powerful females packed in as he believably can before we would be in Wonder Woman Amazon territory.

Sadly, yes, there are.

For example, in "Percy Jackson and the Olympians", the character Annabeth is a very strong female character - one that has a stronger will then almost all the characters in the story.

Also, if you think about "Harry Potter", the character Hermione had a incredibly will and possessed many qualities of unmatched bravery.

[7V3N]

Zod, on 15 May 2012 - 02:37 AM, said:

Sadly, yes, there are.

For example, in "Percy Jackson and the Olympians", the character Annabeth is a very strong female character - one that has a stronger will then almost all the characters in the story.

Also, if you think about "Harry Potter", the character Hermione had a incredibly will and possessed many qualities of unmatched bravery.

Katniss Everdeen from the Hunger Games series. She was very unstable when it came to her emotions, but she was strong.

Edited by The Shadow Fox, 15 May 2012 - 12:01 PM.

[Frumpus]

No Reeds is a win-win for everyone
- It means that they don't have to waste precious air time with a Rickon/Osha/Davos storyline that will most likely lead to nothing or end in tragedy
- It means they can write Rickon out of the series if they choose to kill him off (the actor may grow up way too fast)
- It means two less actors to pay
- Any purpose the Reeds would have had has already been gone. There's no reason for them to show up now and guide Bran & co. to Coldhands and beyond the wall. And is there any real point to Bran's story now that he's effectively become a seer who can see into the past and present? I always felt that was GRRM's way of concluding Bran's story in a way that he becomes immortal and doesn't suffer the same tragedy that the rest of his family does. By getting rid of the Reeds, the producers now have an option to give him a different story, and I'm sure we'll see something that's more suitable for tv.

[dansnow]

Frumpus, on 15 May 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

No Reeds is a win-win for everyone
- It means that they don't have to waste precious air time with a Rickon/Osha/Davos storyline that will most likely lead to nothing or end in tragedy
- It means they can write Rickon out of the series if they choose to kill him off (the actor may grow up way too fast)
- It means two less actors to pay
- Any purpose the Reeds would have had has already been gone. There's no reason for them to show up now and guide Bran & co. to Coldhands and beyond the wall. And is there any real point to Bran's story now that he's effectively become a seer who can see into the past and present? I always felt that was GRRM's way of concluding Bran's story in a way that he becomes immortal and doesn't suffer the same tragedy that the rest of his family does. By getting rid of the Reeds, the producers now have an option to give him a different story, and I'm sure we'll see something that's more suitable for tv.

Obviously the writers wouldn't include rickon just to kill him off before he does anything, same with Martin, he has a huge role to play yet. And if he's growing up to fast, sending him to Skagos and getting a new actor later makes the most sense! He will probably be the Stark in winterfell at the end of the series but it has been set up too much for it to "lead to nothing" and tragedy makes no sense for Rickons character.
Also there is nothing to indicate that is Bran's fate and even if it is (which I highly doubt) there is no reason to change it, his battle with the dead outside Bloodravens cave and coldhands will make for great tv. There's no reason to change it at all. And having these powers will be huge in the final books, becoming powerful didn't somehow make him useless or pointless, that makes no sense at all.

Edited by dansnow, 15 May 2012 - 02:42 PM.

[rickard]

Osha is hot.  She is more important for television.  But the Reeds are integral (more important to the to the entire story) from COK on.  Even in GOT, Howland Reed is explained as a fairly important dude.  Osha and Rickon dissappear and haven been seen since.

[Davos55]

rickard, on 23 May 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

Osha is hot. She is more important for television.  

What do you mean by this statement? That her being "hot" (debatable) makes her more important somehow for a television audience?

[7V3N]

rickard, on 23 May 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

Osha is hot.

In your opinion.

[rustypaladin]

I disagree that it is was a good decision to leave the Reeds out. These are characters who help the reader delve deeper into the magical world of Westeros and the powers of the Children of the Forest. They help to define Bran's character and make sense of his wolf dreams. Let's face it, a casual viewer just assumes he is dreaming as the wolf Summer for no real reason at all? What about the three-eyed crow from Season 1, that makes no real sens until Meera and Jojen explain it more to Bran. We also find out what Bran IS.
Jojen's 'greendreams' of the sea coming to Winterfell make more sense than Bran dreaming it and Osha interpreting it...Okay, so she knows a lot about myths and magic because she's a wildling but this was not her purpose as a character.
Jojen's 'young sage' archetype is pivotal for Bran's character development! Bran also describes Meera as reminding him of Arya, which gives him a sense of comfort and security. Both characters become his close companions and understand him more than anyone else can.

THEN, Maester Luwin talks about these magical notions and we learn more about the Children of the Forest (being in sympatico with animals, the weirwoods, 'green dreams' etc.) and the history of Westeros.

GRRM spends a LOT of time on Bran's dreams and these developing him as a character, I would have expected for the series to give this justice especially by introducing these two interesting characters (who help explain the meaning and the purpose of Bran's dreams).
Not only that but they're COOL. They fight with nets and frog spears, they live in a swampy place that MOVES and understand the ancient magic of Westeros!

Edited by rustypaladin, 08 March 2013 - 05:22 PM.