44 replies to this topic

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

This has probably been discussed before but I remember Ned getting annoyed and worried about Jaime being made Warden of the East but why? Mace Tyrell seems to have no influence over Dorne and the Arryns can't control the Baratheon armies, so what is the point of the wardens?

[Apple Martini]

I believe wardens are mostly honorary, except in the case of a foreign invasion and/or possibly an internal civil war. It's a military title, first and foremost. During peacetime, it's honorary. But in a conflict, the wardens have the power to call and command the various troops from their particular regions. So you can see why Ned is leery about the Lannisters possibly having the authority over half of Westeros' potential military forces.

[I'll pay the iron price]

I think it can go a bit beyond just a title.
For example, Jon Arryn as warden of the east was responsible for the safe keeping of the east coastline against piracy

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

That's what I thought but it justs seems to me that the Dornish would be more likely to spit on Reachmen than follow them into battle. Why couldn't the regions be led by their lords paramount?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The title of Warden seems to be more than just a military title. Stark, Lannister and Arryn were Kings before Aegon, being a mere Lord touches their honor. Naming them Wardens let them retain more of their honor. Baratheon is the brother, Tully just a rebell who owes his freedom and Lordship to Aegon. Tyrell has the most manpower and makes the fourth Warden. And it stayed that way for 300 years.

[NomadicDirewolf]

wondering if all provinces of westeros are answerable to a warden,if this is the case, who are the tullys answerable to? they're probably not threatened by wildlings, so i doubt its the north, it could either be the warden of the west or the warden of the east, or is it just in the specified situation, and they're not answerable to a lord

[Apple Martini]

The Tullys could go to any of the four areas, as I think they border them all. It's probably left up to them.

[Stannis Iron Baratheon]

What about the storm and crown lands then? Do they all fall under the east because then it would be stacked in the east since the north probably only has the north and south has dorne and reach and west has westerlands and the iron islands and maybe the riverlands.

[Apple Martini]

Crows Eye, on 10 May 2012 - 02:18 AM, said:

What about the storm and crown lands then? Do they all fall under the east because then it would be stacked in the east since the north probably only has the north and south has dorne and reach and west has westerlands and the iron islands and maybe the riverlands.

Here's how I see the chips falling:

North: North and Iron Islands
East: Vale and the Stormlands
West: Westerlands and the Riverlands
South: Reach and Dorne

That's two major houses per region by warden, with the ninth house (before Robert, the Targs in the Crownlands) doing its own thing.

[Hear Us Roar]

If there is a foreign invasion they are the Generals and tasked with dealing with it. So domestically it means nothing.

Edited by Hear Us Roar, 10 May 2012 - 02:44 AM.

[Pellaeon]

The warden get blamed when anything go wrong in their area and are responsable for defending the area with their own troops

[The Last Direwolf]

I think Warden is just any empty title really. The only time that they can be used is when all of Westeros is united against a common enemy i.e. during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. As this doesn't happen very often, it's not really very relevant.

And Jaime Lannister being made Warden of the East really was pointless - the men of the Vale would never follow someone who was not their own into battle, and Robert would probably insist on leading the Stormlands men himself. And the Warden of the South as well, is a touchy one. Dornishmen hate Highgardeners and therefore would never follow them into battle. The Warden of the North is also problematic. The ironborn have a history of harrying the Stony Coast of the North, so any Stark as Warden would have a hard job battering the Greyjoys into submission. The Warden of the West might work theoretically, but the Lannisters and the Tullys were at each others throats before the start of the War of the Five Kings anyway, so it wouldn't have worked then.

I think Robb Starks idea of giving Wardenships out to his bannermen, but putting them in charge of much smaller areas would have worked much better, had the North had more men to call upon during the Bolton and ironborn invasions. Having Lord Wyman (or one of his more able relatives) as Warden of the White Knife, a Tallhart as the Warden of the Stony Shore, Howland Reed as Warden of the Neck and Greatjon Umber as Warden of the Wolfswood would have been much easier and efficient during an invasion/war.

[Free Northman]

The Warden title never made sense. It is totally empty, in my view, as in the history of Westeros, it has never needed to unite against a foreign invasion.

In any case, who is going to invade them from the West, so what the hell is a Warden of the West needed for?

And since the Warden of the North only commands well...the North...what's the difference between being Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North?

Also, Dorne is a mortal enemy of the Reach, so there's a snowballs chance in hell that they'll accept any commands from the "Wardens of the South".

As for Warden of the East - well, King's Landing itself is in the East, so any eastern war would just be led by the Iron Throne itself.

It's a rubbish title, meaning little that I can see.

Edited by Free Northman, 10 May 2012 - 05:28 AM.

[Inara]

I think Warden of the South encompassed the Reach and the Stormlands to protect them against the Dornish. At the time of Aegon's Conquest, when these positions were created, Dorne was not under the rule of the Iron Throne, and for all intents and purposes, at war with their neighbors.

The Wardens of the North, West, and East had responsibility for their respective coastlines. The Wall and the Night's Watch protected the very northern border of the kingdom as it was, though technically the Warden of the North was responsible for that as well.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I seem to remember some of the characters talking about the North, in Dance, and saying that Roose Bolton had been made Warden of the North, like it was the same as the lord paramount...

[The Last Direwolf]

Inara, on 11 May 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

I think Warden of the South encompassed the Reach and the Stormlands to protect them against the Dornish. At the time of Aegon's Conquest, when these positions were created, Dorne was not under the rule of the Iron Throne, and for all intents and purposes, at war with their neighbors.

The Wardens of the North, West, and East had responsibility for their respective coastlines. The Wall and the Night's Watch protected the very northern border of the kingdom as it was, though technically the Warden of the North was responsible for that as well.

The Warden of the South, before the joining of Dorne, would have just had the command of the Reach like the Warden of the North commands just the North. I'm fairly certain that the Stormlands come under the command of the Warden of the East.

And the Warden of the North has no power over the Night's Watch, and technically neither does the King on the Iron Throne, the Lord of Winterfell or whoever else might have power in the south. The Night's Watch is an independent organisation.

Stannis Eats No Peaches, on 11 May 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

I seem to remember some of the characters talking about the North, in Dance, and saying that Roose Bolton had been made Warden of the North, like it was the same as the lord paramount...

No, it's different. Being made Warden doesn't make you Lord Paramount. An example of this would be the situation Robert created in the Vale. Jaime was made the Warden of the East but Robert Arryn was still the Lord Paramount.

[Apple Martini]

I looked up Robert and Ned's conversation about the Dothraki invasion and they discuss the warden thing. The Warden of the East title is vacant after Arryn's death. Ned thinks Robert Arryn should inherit it, but Robert doesn't want to risk "a quarter of the realm" on a sickly boy, in the event that the Dothraki invade. So that tells me that it is a fairly serious matter, even if it only becomes so when a foreign invasion occurs. Ned next suggests Stannis, who is more or less a Stormlands lord, as an acceptable alternative to Robert Arryn. So I'm going to stick to my breakdown.

North: North and Iron Islands
South: Reach and Dorne
East: Vale and Stormlands
West: Westerlands and Riverlands

Edited by Apple Martini, 11 May 2012 - 04:16 PM.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

The Last Direwolf, on 11 May 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

No, it's different. Being made Warden doesn't make you Lord Paramount. An example of this would be the situation Robert created in the Vale. Jaime was made the Warden of the East but Robert Arryn was still the Lord Paramount.

I know but it sounded like the characters, I forget who, discussing the wardenship (actual word?) were acting like it was a really big deal, more than what we are interpreting it to mean.

Edited by Stannis Eats No Peaches, 11 May 2012 - 04:17 PM.

[Lord Stark]

I believe the title of Warden of the north is just to give a little more of a chain of command in times of war. For example, should a Lord Tully, Lannister, and Greyjoy call their banners, and be unable to unite with the king's host because a hostile host or two is between them and the king, but are able to rally with one another to join their hosts, you get into the issue of who commands it. All three lords can claim that since they one of the great lords of the realm they should lead it. You run into issues with that, and need a single leader to lead your host. Being warden allows Lord Lannister to take command of the host until such time as he can regroup with the King's host. Further if a Lord Stark joined, I think it would matter where they were. If Lord Stark marched into the Riverlands, command would likely be given to Lord Lannister. Pretty much it just places 4 of the 8 Great Houses above the other 4 slightly for the sake of keeping a chain of command of sorts.

Thats not to say everyone is going to follow him without word. The Warden is going to need the support of the lords, who then control their own men.

I agree the title of Warden was never fully fleshed out, and as such is a simple mess, but I do see ways in which it works.

[The Last Direwolf]

Stannis Eats No Peaches, on 11 May 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

I know but it sounded like the characters, I forget who, discussing the wardenship (actual word?) were acting like it was a really big deal, more than what we are interpreting it to mean.

It's an honorary position that puts you in a deal of great power over the region. The Iron Throne's giving of the Wardenship to a Bolton and not 'Arya' Stark showed that they had cut all ties with the Starks and taken the region from their power entirely. It was a politically important and shocking move because a Stark had always had the Wardenship until that point.