63 replies to this topic

[Dragonstar]

It seems to me that Asoiaf is full of instances of father and son relationships that play a critical role In a characters actions and seem to form a central theme in the series :
Tywin & Tyrion
Jon and Ned
Theon & Balon
Aerys and Rhaegar
Tywin and his dad
Lord Mormont and Joran
Robert & Joff


But precious few instances of a mother/mother figure being central to a female character. Dany never knew her mother, Cersei not much either. Arya seems to recall what she learns from the male figures in her life, but Catelyn doesn't seem a strong driving force in her psyche.. Similarly I can' remember Arianne or Asha or any of the other POV females dwelling on their mothers the way that so much of the male POV seem to. In one way or the other daddy-son issues drive so much of the action in this series.

Just wondering if this is par for course in fantasy writing since I'm new to the genre...

[Marjie Eilie Myatt]

Great question.

[etu]

Sansa is very much her mother's daughter I think, but even that hasn't shaped her the way some of the afore mentioned have; while Arya is quite noticeably not her mother's daughter in a lot of ways, but that doesn't bother her.

Does seem weird now you point it out.

[Dragonstar]

Also Doran & Quentyn...

[nara]

Interesting...I think it may be related to a couple of things:

1.  Women are undervalued in this type of world so relationships between women are considered less important.
2.  Many mothers die in childbirth in this world, including Dany, Cat, and Cersei's mothers.  So why is the world written this way?
2a.  similar to olden days in our world
2b.  somehow growing up without a mom = child experiences less love growing up = interesting psychological problems as an adult and also -= kickass tomboy girl.
2c.  people are more open to believing in abusive fathers than mothers, so that opens the door to more character issues than growing up fatherless would.
2d.  dead mother = opportunity to have a different identity, because only mom can know a child's true father (think of all the Tyrion, Cersei, and jaime are Targs theories out there)

[Dragonstar]

True. Not to mention Jon Snow who knows nothing because Lyanna isn't around to tell him...  In re-reading Asos Olenna has an interesting comment to the effect that if these people listened to their mothers more Westeros wouldn't have the kinds of problems they had

[Nausicaä]

I'm just going to leave this link here...

[Lyanna Stark]

etu, on 09 May 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

Sansa is very much her mother's daughter I think, but even that hasn't shaped her the way some of the afore mentioned have; while Arya is quite noticeably not her mother's daughter in a lot of ways, but that doesn't bother her.

Does seem weird now you point it out.

On the face of it Sansa is her mother's daughter, but as the series goes on she very much shows she is almost more like Ned than any of the other Stark children. She has his thoughtfulness, his steadfastness, his wish to do the right thing and above all his compassion.

[ARYa_Nym]

etu, on 09 May 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

Sansa is very much her mother's daughter I think, but even that hasn't shaped her the way some of the afore mentioned have; while Arya is quite noticeably not her mother's daughter in a lot of ways, but that doesn't bother her.

Does seem weird now you point it out.

I think it does but she doesn't dwell on it. She thought that Cat wouldn't have wanted to pay her ransom.

[Ser Sweets]

The only positive, active mother/daughter relationship that springs to mind is Maege and Dacey Mormont, though neither were POV's. I always enjoyed their warrior women relationship; the fact that mother and daughter alike marched out to fight in the war was pretty kickass, and they seemed to have a good understanding of one another.

I wouldn't be surprised if Myrcella (and Tommen, even moreso) grows up with mommy issues. Whatever you might believe Cersei does or doesn't feel for her children, we can all agree she is not a good mother overall.

Edited by Pelki, 10 May 2012 - 02:58 AM.

[Natalie_S]

Almost all the boys that were grown by their mother seem to have issues:
-Robert Arryn has all kinds of psychological and physical issues
-Samwell is adorable, but he's considered less "manly" than his companions, is physically inept at fighting and is considered a coward.
-Joffrey is a psycho.

On the other hand Tommen is lovely (though he doesn't sound like the brightest bulb in the box, considered that he and Bran are about the same age) and Myrcella sounds alright... but who knows....

[Evamitchelle]

I think Margaery and Alerie, and to an even greater extent Olenna, have a strong relationship.

[Lyanna Stark]

Evamitchelle, on 10 May 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

I think Margaery and Alerie, and to an even greater extent Olenna, have a strong relationship.

Agreed, and Asha seems to genuinely appreciate and worry about her mother, too.

I'm thinking Ellaria Sand has a pretty good relationship with her daughters and she seems very protective of them, too, from what we can tell from the Dornish POVs. Without going into Cersei crazy land overprotective, just realistic.

[Lummel]

Dragonstar, on 09 May 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

It seems to me that Asoiaf is full of instances of father and son relationships that play a critical role In a characters actions and seem to form a central theme in the series...But precious few instances of a mother/mother figure being central to a female character...

Might be because the political figures are almost all men and ASOIAF is on the surface a political drama.  But I'd agree that Mother-child isn't as marked as Father-child among the POV characters.  The ersatz parents off the top of my head seem all to be men too (Sandor to Arya, Kindly old man to Arya, hmm does anybody other than Arya have a stand in Father? Arguably the old blacksmith on the Wall to Jon).

Also some significant mothers died early in the cases of the three Lannister POVs and Catelyn, and then the Stark childrens Northern identification I suppose moves them away from their mother.

[Ice Turtle]

Lummel, on 10 May 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

Might be because the political figures are almost all men and ASOIAF is on the surface a political drama.  But I'd agree that Mother-child isn't as marked as Father-child among the POV characters.  The ersatz parents off the top of my head seem all to be men too (Sandor to Arya, Kindly old man to Arya, hmm does anybody other than Arya have a stand in Father? Arguably the old blacksmith on the Wall to Jon).

Also some significant mothers died early in the cases of the three Lannister POVs and Catelyn, and then the Stark childrens Northern identification I suppose moves them away from their mother.

There is lady Smalwood for Arya and Cersei for Sansa sort of (after her first menstruation), and I suspect that Arya will get another woman mentor before she leaves Braavos. I'm hoping for The  Black Pearl.

The most important mother/daughter relationship is probably Cat and Arya, and we my got some Cersei-Myrcella, poor girl.

[Melisande]

nara, on 09 May 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Interesting...I think it may be related to a couple of things:

1.  Women are undervalued in this type of world so relationships between women are considered less important.
2.  Many mothers die in childbirth in this world, including Dany, Cat, and Cersei's mothers.  So why is the world written this way?
2a.  similar to olden days in our world
2b.  somehow growing up without a mom = child experiences less love growing up = interesting psychological problems as an adult and also -= kickass tomboy girl.
2c.  people are more open to believing in abusive fathers than mothers, so that opens the door to more character issues than growing up fatherless would.
2d.  dead mother = opportunity to have a different identity, because only mom can know a child's true father (think of all the Tyrion, Cersei, and jaime are Targs theories out there)

I agree with everything you said... except one thing. Woman could be complete ignorant who is the father of her child.

Plus, there are mother-daughter repationship (Val-Casterson, Arya-Lady Smallwood, Sansa-Sweetrobin, Dany-Missandei...), just father-son and fatherly figure are everywhere. I think that is because there are many tropes with fatherly figures and...
Martin is a guy. I am not manhater and I don't think his male gaze are something wrong, just human. But Martin's works does have male gaze trope.

Edited by Lady of the Dawn Beauty, 10 May 2012 - 07:26 AM.

[Darth Arya]

Another point is alot of girls are closer to their dads, I have never been particularly close with my mum at all.

[Blisscraft]

A couple of things.

Arya is deeply influenced by Cat, in an oppositional way.  Arya is the second daughter who cannot live up to the first.  (In Arya mind.  I have no doubt that Cat loves her).  Arya opposes what she perceives as Cat/Sansa's feminity.  Arya can't do her stitches well- she's left handed.  She identifies more strongly with the men in her life because she has more in common with them.  This is probably because of Lyanna's influence on Ned.  Lyanna is a classic tomboy (no mom to speak of and the only girl amidst three brothers).

I have always been struck by the fact the so many of the characters, both male and female, grow up without a mother or lose their mothers as young children:  Cat, Lysa, Ned, (his mother is never mentioned) the Lannisters, Jon, Brienne, Varys, the Baratheons, Dany, Viserys, ect. .

[Evamitchelle]

I think it's interesting to note that both Arya and Sansa take or consider taking their mother's name. One of Arya's aliases in Braavos is "Cat of the Canals" and Sansa's first impulse when being told to take a fake name is also to call herself after her mother.

Also from the Cat of the Canals chapter in AFFC : "It was the other dream she hated, the one where she had two feet instead of four. In that one she was always looking for her mother, stumbling through a wasted land of mud and blood and fire. It was always raining in that dream, and she could hear her mother screaming, but a monster with a dog's head would not let her go save her. In that dream she was always weeping, like a frightened little girl." She's having recurring nightmares about the Red Wedding, and specifically about her mother and not Robb, when I don't recall her having any about Ned's execution.

Edited by Evamitchelle, 10 May 2012 - 08:50 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Evamitchelle, on 10 May 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

I think it's interesting to note that both Arya and Sansa take or consider taking their mother's name. One of Arya's aliases in Braavos is "Cat of the Canals" and Sansa's first impulse when being told to take a fake name is also to call herself after her mother.

I think it's clear both Arya and Sansa have strong family ties and that both of them identify more than might be apparent at first with their mother. It's also notable that Cat as Stoneheart is first and foremost about finding her daughters. Cat released Jaime to have a chance at recovering her daughters, too, so I think Cat,Sansa and Arya have very strong ties and very strong mother - daughter bond, perhaps the strongest one presented in the books.

Quote

Also from the Cat of the Canals chapter in AFFC : "It was the other dream she hated, the one where she had two feet instead of four. In that one she was always looking for her mother, stumbling through a wasted land of mud and blood and fire. It was always raining in that dream, and she could hear her mother screaming, but a monster with a dog's head would not let her go save her. In that dream she was always weeping, like a frightened little girl." She's having recurring nightmares about the Red Wedding, and specifically about her mother and not Robb, when I don't recall her having any about Ned's execution.

I actually think Arya is more like Cat than she is like Ned, on an internal level. Cat is a bit sterner than Ned and sharper and as we have seen can remain strong in the face of enormous adversity while also being fiercly protective of her own (Arya definitely shares this trait), while Ned is more thoughtful and compassionate, which are traits that Sansa shares with him.