I think that the Freys strength is greater now than it was early on. They do control Seagard now which does give them a decent sized port which has increased their incomes. The Freys can probaly feild 7,000 or 8,000 men at this point.
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More powerful: Frey, Bolton or Manderly?
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The Frosted King
, May 10 2012 08:44 AM
106 replies to this topic
#42
Artos Stark
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Posted 10 May 2012 - 09:21 PM
jarl the climber, on 10 May 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:
I think that the Freys strength is greater now than it was early on. They do control Seagard now which does give them a decent sized port which has increased their incomes. The Freys can probaly feild 7,000 or 8,000 men at this point.
Wait wait. The Freys really don't have too many bannerman. At the beginning of the series it is said that they could field 4,000 men. They kept about 500 back at the Twins to protect it.
After a war with the Lannisters the number of their men has magically gone up? Not only that but doubled? How has that happened? Sure they took Seagard but unless there are 4,000 - 5,000 fighting men in that town, there is no way they have anything near those numbers. I think its pretty clear at this point that they are weaker than they were at the start.
#43
Sand Snake No. 9
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Posted 10 May 2012 - 09:35 PM
I think Roose Bolton cooked his own goose -- and Ramsey's too, I sincerely hope -- when he demanded the attendance of all the Northern Lords at Winterfell for "Arya's" wedding. Now he's stuck in close quarters with enemies inside and outside the wall. I suspect the Umbers, inside and out, have something planned, Manderly has already started baking pies, and the rest of the Lords aren't too happy either.
Lady Dustin already warned Ramsay that everyone could hear Ned's girl crying, and that it was making the Northern Lords restless -- what will they think when they learn that Ned's girl ran away? That just make the whole house of cards fall, or wobble really badly. Ramsay made all sorts of grandiose threats in the Pink Letter, but I think they're all hot air.
Lady Dustin already warned Ramsay that everyone could hear Ned's girl crying, and that it was making the Northern Lords restless -- what will they think when they learn that Ned's girl ran away? That just make the whole house of cards fall, or wobble really badly. Ramsay made all sorts of grandiose threats in the Pink Letter, but I think they're all hot air.
#44
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Posted 11 May 2012 - 01:17 AM
I have to agree with those who are puzzled about how the Freys amassed their wealth. The Twin's can be avoid by anyone going north to south, or vice verse by staying on the King's Road. The only people who would use the Twins are those one the west coast. Other then a few villages, and holdfasts, the only major place west of the Green Fork is Seagard. Seagard is a town, and so there might be alot of trade going from Seagard, and through the Twins to reach other areas, that just brings up another question, of why the Mallisters would allow the Freys to get that powerful off their trade, and not stop it with some minor war, or protest to Lord Tully. It is all rather odd.
Anyways, The freys we know had 4000 troops at the start of the war. They, like all the northmen, took losses. 2000 Frey's went north with Bolton, at best, with Seagard, I would say they have another 2000 - 3000 in reserve for their own lands. Being granted further lands would help refill their loses, but Seagard took loses in the war would have suffered losses in battle as well. Further, the Frey's forces are splits in the south between their own lands, and aiding the Lannister army in the Riverlands. They are spread much to thin.
I see both House Manderly and House Boltons as the strongest vassals of House Stark at the start of the war. We know that these two houses fought one another over House Hornwood's lands during the war in the south, so unlike House Umbar, which is no doubt fierce, they had plenty of forces to spare to wage a private war. House Manderly is the richest in the North, holds the only true city in the north, has a fleet, and many men, and as they hold lands in the most southern part of the north, with a major river they likely have good fields for crops. White Harbour though, likely wouldn't last long in a siege since it is a city, although with their fleet they can supply themselves without the need of smugglers.
House Bolton isn't as rich as the Manderly's, but they likely do have good crop lands as well, and a major river through their lands. I would guess that House Bolton is a few thousand men short of what House Manderly can muster, but they would also be more men with a harder background, such as huntsmen, farmers, and such, since they don't control a city, and we know of no town in the area of their lands. If House Manderly can muster 10,000 troops, then I believe House Bolton would likely be able to muster 6000 - 8000k. Also House Bolton was able to withstand a siege of the Dreadfort for two years against the whole of the north it would seem, before they finally dipped their banners.
My list for them would be.
1. House Manderly
2. House Bolton
3. House Frey
Now if it came to a defensive war, for whatever reason, for either side, House Bolton would have a much better chance of recovering from it, then House Manderly I believe.
Anyways, The freys we know had 4000 troops at the start of the war. They, like all the northmen, took losses. 2000 Frey's went north with Bolton, at best, with Seagard, I would say they have another 2000 - 3000 in reserve for their own lands. Being granted further lands would help refill their loses, but Seagard took loses in the war would have suffered losses in battle as well. Further, the Frey's forces are splits in the south between their own lands, and aiding the Lannister army in the Riverlands. They are spread much to thin.
I see both House Manderly and House Boltons as the strongest vassals of House Stark at the start of the war. We know that these two houses fought one another over House Hornwood's lands during the war in the south, so unlike House Umbar, which is no doubt fierce, they had plenty of forces to spare to wage a private war. House Manderly is the richest in the North, holds the only true city in the north, has a fleet, and many men, and as they hold lands in the most southern part of the north, with a major river they likely have good fields for crops. White Harbour though, likely wouldn't last long in a siege since it is a city, although with their fleet they can supply themselves without the need of smugglers.
House Bolton isn't as rich as the Manderly's, but they likely do have good crop lands as well, and a major river through their lands. I would guess that House Bolton is a few thousand men short of what House Manderly can muster, but they would also be more men with a harder background, such as huntsmen, farmers, and such, since they don't control a city, and we know of no town in the area of their lands. If House Manderly can muster 10,000 troops, then I believe House Bolton would likely be able to muster 6000 - 8000k. Also House Bolton was able to withstand a siege of the Dreadfort for two years against the whole of the north it would seem, before they finally dipped their banners.
My list for them would be.
1. House Manderly
2. House Bolton
3. House Frey
Now if it came to a defensive war, for whatever reason, for either side, House Bolton would have a much better chance of recovering from it, then House Manderly I believe.
#45
Lyanna Stark
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Posted 11 May 2012 - 01:34 AM
jarl the climber, on 10 May 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:
I think that the Freys strength is greater now than it was early on. They do control Seagard now which does give them a decent sized port which has increased their incomes. The Freys can probaly feild 7,000 or 8,000 men at this point.
But is it "real" power or a tenuous hold? LF holds Harrenhal in name, but he has no real hold on it, for instance.
Further, the Freys are becoming political pariahs all over Westeros. When Lyn Corbray draws his sword at the Lord Declarant's meeting, he's accused of being no better than a Frey. I belive there are discussions in Cersei's chapters in either AFFC or ADWD that they will need to distance themselves from Walder Frey and his house as to not be "tainted" by his hideous reputation after the breaking of the guest right. Walder Frey may have succeeded in revenging himself on Robb, but in doing so he has doomed his entire house. Nobody wants anything to do with them if they can help it, and will take any chance to be rid of the Freys.
Sand Snake No. 9, on 10 May 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:
I think Roose Bolton cooked his own goose -- and Ramsey's too, I sincerely hope -- when he demanded the attendance of all the Northern Lords at Winterfell for "Arya's" wedding. Now he's stuck in close quarters with enemies inside and outside the wall. I suspect the Umbers, inside and out, have something planned, Manderly has already started baking pies, and the rest of the Lords aren't too happy either.
Lady Dustin already warned Ramsay that everyone could hear Ned's girl crying, and that it was making the Northern Lords restless -- what will they think when they learn that Ned's girl ran away? That just make the whole house of cards fall, or wobble really badly. Ramsay made all sorts of grandiose threats in the Pink Letter, but I think they're all hot air.
Lady Dustin already warned Ramsay that everyone could hear Ned's girl crying, and that it was making the Northern Lords restless -- what will they think when they learn that Ned's girl ran away? That just make the whole house of cards fall, or wobble really badly. Ramsay made all sorts of grandiose threats in the Pink Letter, but I think they're all hot air.
I agree. I think not taking Ramsay in hand will be Roose's downfall. Lady Dustin was really straight forward with Theon in saying the Northern lords were running out of patience, or they were only there because of hostages. Ramsay is a scary psycopath, but he is not one for understanding people. He's cruel and petulant and thinks he can cow people into obeying him. I'm thinking he will be in for a fun surprise some time in the future.
Edited by Lyanna Stark, 11 May 2012 - 01:36 AM.
#46
bloodymime
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Posted 11 May 2012 - 01:40 AM
Apple Martini, on 10 May 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:
This last paragraph is especially interesting, because I too find the idea of "not your daddy's North" to be intriguing. The Manderlys at least are throwing their hat in with Rickon, the most untamed and unruly of the surviving Starks. I think we might see a hearkening back to the "old" North, where honor is backed up with a certain level of ruthlessness.
Rickon is what? Around three when everybody starts leaving? Someone smarter correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that just around the age when we really start retaining long term memory? Couple that with the trauma of his last days in Winterfell then immediately leaving with a stranger to a completely different environment and I wonder how much if anything he's going to remember of his family at all.
I just have this idea in my head now of this wildling spearwife trying to keep a sense of being a Stark and what it means instilled in Rickon. Only she likely might not know that much about recent Stark history and their southron ambitions so she's telling him stories wildlings would know of the savage Starks in the bloody old days.
Maybe Osha will be New Nan.
#47
Northern light
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Posted 11 May 2012 - 01:59 AM
Where does it state that they control Seagard? If I remember correctly Mallisters yielded to the Freys (in reality yielded to king Joffrey) but this doesn't mean that the Freys control Seagard.
#48
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Posted 11 May 2012 - 02:08 AM
Northern light, on 11 May 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:
Where does it state that they control Seagard? If I remember correctly Mallisters yielded to the Freys (in reality yielded to king Joffrey) but this doesn't mean that the Freys control Seagard.
In the appendix for Dance Mallister is listed as a prisoner in his own castle along with his son.
In Feast's as well.
#49
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Posted 11 May 2012 - 02:14 AM
bloodymime, on 11 May 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:
In the appendix for Dance Mallister is listed as a prisoner in his own castle along with his son.
In Feast's as well.
In Feast's as well.
Ok. I missed that. But that doesn't still mean that the Freys command Seagards forces to do their bidding. Is there any evidence for that?
#50
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Posted 11 May 2012 - 02:26 AM
Look, I've got a pet peeve, which actually relates nicely to this thread.
I see it on some websites - like the ASOIAF wiki I believe, and I see it with some members of this forum.
When evaluating the various Houses, they will doggedly list the Boltons as the Great House of the North, for example, and they will even list the Starks as an extinct House. Similarly, they will list the Freys as the lords of Riverrun etc.
Basically, they try to be so "politically correct" from an "in-Westeros" perspective, that they ignore realities that readers know about, but which the average citizen of Westeros does not know about.
For example, as readers we KNOW that Jeyne is the fake Arya, and we KNOW that the real Arya is still out there. We also know that Rickon, Bran and Jon are all still there and we KNOW that Martin is NOT going to have the Stark seat of Winterfell stay with the Boltons.
This is not speculation, it is 100% guarnateed. A strange phenomenon which I have noticed, is that Martin's unfortunate writing delays between Storm of Swords and Winds of Winter have given the likes of the Boltons and Freys unintended longevity and legitimacy in the minds of many readers.
These guys aren't cunning and clever. They aren't long term survivors as some claim them to be. In reality, they grabbed their bloody spoils in Storm of Swords, and will suffer a complete and utter demise in Winds of Winter. If the book split hadn't become necessary, they would have suffered their utter demise in Dance of Dragons already. And if the time between books had only been 2 years instead of 5, the Boltons and Freys would hardly have been a blip on the timeline of the series.
The fact is, we KNOW that the Boltons are not the true "Wardens of the North".
To list them as being able to call on all these vassals is a fallacy, as the conspiracy against them is already clear to see.
The ASOIAF wiki should not be listing the Boltons as the Great House of the North, and the Starks as an extinct Great House, like Harren the Black or the Storm Kings.
Instead, it should be listing the Boltons as northern Rebels, and the Starks to be in hiding, biding their time to crush them, with Rickon being summoned back from Skagos, Bran being a demi-god in the North, Arya coming back as a super assassin to eradicate entire lineages of Freys and Boltons singlehandedly, and Jon probably coming back as King of the Entire realm.
All of this impacts this thread, as the Freys and Boltons are given way more power and influence than they truly possess, as a result of an incorrect interpretation of their true status.
I see it on some websites - like the ASOIAF wiki I believe, and I see it with some members of this forum.
When evaluating the various Houses, they will doggedly list the Boltons as the Great House of the North, for example, and they will even list the Starks as an extinct House. Similarly, they will list the Freys as the lords of Riverrun etc.
Basically, they try to be so "politically correct" from an "in-Westeros" perspective, that they ignore realities that readers know about, but which the average citizen of Westeros does not know about.
For example, as readers we KNOW that Jeyne is the fake Arya, and we KNOW that the real Arya is still out there. We also know that Rickon, Bran and Jon are all still there and we KNOW that Martin is NOT going to have the Stark seat of Winterfell stay with the Boltons.
This is not speculation, it is 100% guarnateed. A strange phenomenon which I have noticed, is that Martin's unfortunate writing delays between Storm of Swords and Winds of Winter have given the likes of the Boltons and Freys unintended longevity and legitimacy in the minds of many readers.
These guys aren't cunning and clever. They aren't long term survivors as some claim them to be. In reality, they grabbed their bloody spoils in Storm of Swords, and will suffer a complete and utter demise in Winds of Winter. If the book split hadn't become necessary, they would have suffered their utter demise in Dance of Dragons already. And if the time between books had only been 2 years instead of 5, the Boltons and Freys would hardly have been a blip on the timeline of the series.
The fact is, we KNOW that the Boltons are not the true "Wardens of the North".
To list them as being able to call on all these vassals is a fallacy, as the conspiracy against them is already clear to see.
The ASOIAF wiki should not be listing the Boltons as the Great House of the North, and the Starks as an extinct Great House, like Harren the Black or the Storm Kings.
Instead, it should be listing the Boltons as northern Rebels, and the Starks to be in hiding, biding their time to crush them, with Rickon being summoned back from Skagos, Bran being a demi-god in the North, Arya coming back as a super assassin to eradicate entire lineages of Freys and Boltons singlehandedly, and Jon probably coming back as King of the Entire realm.
All of this impacts this thread, as the Freys and Boltons are given way more power and influence than they truly possess, as a result of an incorrect interpretation of their true status.
Edited by Free Northman, 11 May 2012 - 02:29 AM.
#51
Ramsay Gimp
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Posted 11 May 2012 - 02:26 AM
Guys, if the Manderlys alone could muster 10,000 men, Robb wouldn't have even needed to go back North to fight the Ironborn. He could have just sent a raven to White Harbor. And Wyman could have already overrun the Freys and Boltons and not waste time with all this plotting. If 10,000 were the true number, Robb's army in AGOT/ACOK should have been like 50,000 men at least
People get these inflated numbers and it pisses me off. The Manderlys are the richest Stark bannermen, but that doesn't mean they have the most numbers.
People get these inflated numbers and it pisses me off. The Manderlys are the richest Stark bannermen, but that doesn't mean they have the most numbers.
#52
Ramsay Gimp
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Posted 11 May 2012 - 02:28 AM
Free Northman, on 11 May 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:
Look, I've got a pet peeve, which actually relates nicely to this thread.
I see it on some websites - like the ASOIAF wiki I believe, and I see it with some members of this forum.
When evaluating the various Houses, they will doggedly list the Boltons as the Great House of the North, for example, and they will even list the Starks as an extinct House. Similarly, they will list the Freys as the lords of Riverrun etc.
Basically, they try to be so "politically correct" from an "in-Westeros" perspective, that they ignore realities that readers know about, but which the average citizen of Westeros does not know about.
For example, as readers we KNOW that Jeyne is the fake Arya, and we KNOW that the real Arya is still out there. We also know that Rickon, Bran and Jon are all still there and we KNOW that Martin is NOT going to have the Stark seat of Winterfell stay with the Boltons.
This is not speculation, it is 100% guarnateed. A strange phenomenon which I have noticed, is that Martin's unfortunate writing delays between Storm of Swords and Winds of Winter have given the likes of the Boltons and Freys unintended longevity and legitimacy in the minds of many readers.
These guys aren't cunning and clever. They aren't long term survivors as some claim them to be. In reality, they grabbed their bloody spoils in Storm of Swords, and will suffer a complete and utter demise in Winds of Winter. If the book split hadn't become necessary, they would have suffered their utter demise in Dance of Dragons already. And if the time between books had only been 2 years instead of 5, the Boltons and Freys would hardly have been a blip on the timeline of the series.
The fact is, we KNOW that the Boltons are not the true "Wardens of the North".
To list them as being able to call on all these vassals is a fallacy, as the conspiracy against them is already clear to see.
The ASOIAF wiki should not be listing the Boltons as the Great House of the North, and the Starks as an extinct Great House, like Harren the Black or the Storm Kings.
Instead, it should be listing the Boltons as northern Rebels, and the Starks to be in hiding, biding their time to crush them.
All of this impacts this thread, as the Freys and Boltons are given way more power and influence than they truly possess, as a result of an incorrect interpretation of their true status.
I see it on some websites - like the ASOIAF wiki I believe, and I see it with some members of this forum.
When evaluating the various Houses, they will doggedly list the Boltons as the Great House of the North, for example, and they will even list the Starks as an extinct House. Similarly, they will list the Freys as the lords of Riverrun etc.
Basically, they try to be so "politically correct" from an "in-Westeros" perspective, that they ignore realities that readers know about, but which the average citizen of Westeros does not know about.
For example, as readers we KNOW that Jeyne is the fake Arya, and we KNOW that the real Arya is still out there. We also know that Rickon, Bran and Jon are all still there and we KNOW that Martin is NOT going to have the Stark seat of Winterfell stay with the Boltons.
This is not speculation, it is 100% guarnateed. A strange phenomenon which I have noticed, is that Martin's unfortunate writing delays between Storm of Swords and Winds of Winter have given the likes of the Boltons and Freys unintended longevity and legitimacy in the minds of many readers.
These guys aren't cunning and clever. They aren't long term survivors as some claim them to be. In reality, they grabbed their bloody spoils in Storm of Swords, and will suffer a complete and utter demise in Winds of Winter. If the book split hadn't become necessary, they would have suffered their utter demise in Dance of Dragons already. And if the time between books had only been 2 years instead of 5, the Boltons and Freys would hardly have been a blip on the timeline of the series.
The fact is, we KNOW that the Boltons are not the true "Wardens of the North".
To list them as being able to call on all these vassals is a fallacy, as the conspiracy against them is already clear to see.
The ASOIAF wiki should not be listing the Boltons as the Great House of the North, and the Starks as an extinct Great House, like Harren the Black or the Storm Kings.
Instead, it should be listing the Boltons as northern Rebels, and the Starks to be in hiding, biding their time to crush them.
All of this impacts this thread, as the Freys and Boltons are given way more power and influence than they truly possess, as a result of an incorrect interpretation of their true status.
I think we are just acknowledging reality. Alive or not the remaining Starks are children on the run. Despised or not the Boltons and Freys currently dominate their respective regions
#53
Northern light
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Posted 11 May 2012 - 02:34 AM
Ramsay Gimp, on 11 May 2012 - 02:28 AM, said:
I think we are just acknowledging reality. Alive or not the remaining Starks are children on the run. Despised or not the Boltons and Freys currently dominate their respective regions
Agree. Also, the Appendix in the books is from the Iron Throne (or official ) POV.
#54
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Posted 11 May 2012 - 02:36 AM
Ramsay Gimp, on 11 May 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:
Guys, if the Manderlys alone could muster 10,000 men, Robb wouldn't have even needed to go back North to fight the Ironborn. He could have just sent a raven to White Harbor. And Wyman could have already overrun the Freys and Boltons and not waste time with all this plotting. If 10,000 were the true number, Robb's army in AGOT/ACOK should have been like 50,000 men at least
People get these inflated numbers and it pisses me off. The Manderlys are the richest Stark bannermen, but that doesn't mean they have the most numbers.
People get these inflated numbers and it pisses me off. The Manderlys are the richest Stark bannermen, but that doesn't mean they have the most numbers.
#55
Ramsay Gimp
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Posted 11 May 2012 - 02:40 AM
Bright Blue Eyes, on 11 May 2012 - 02:36 AM, said:
Considering that Victarion had at least 10,000 soldiers sitting in Moat Cailin - no.
^Is that confirmed in the books? I'm curious where it says that. But still, i highly doubt the Greyjoys invaded the North with more than 20,000 men. If just one Northern house can muster 10,000, kicking them out should have been no problem
#56
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Posted 11 May 2012 - 02:46 AM
Ramsay Gimp, on 11 May 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:
Guys, if the Manderlys alone could muster 10,000 men, Robb wouldn't have even needed to go back North to fight the Ironborn. He could have just sent a raven to White Harbor. And Wyman could have already overrun the Freys and Boltons and not waste time with all this plotting. If 10,000 were the true number, Robb's army in AGOT/ACOK should have been like 50,000 men at least
People get these inflated numbers and it pisses me off. The Manderlys are the richest Stark bannermen, but that doesn't mean they have the most numbers.
People get these inflated numbers and it pisses me off. The Manderlys are the richest Stark bannermen, but that doesn't mean they have the most numbers.
Yes it does. Their lands are the most fertile - as it is the furthest south, along with the Barrowlands. Their lands are extensive in size, and they have the biggest river in the North running through it. PLUS they have a fishing fleet that increases their food supply even more.
The Manderlys most certainly have the most men in the North, by a significant margin.
As for his numbers, add it up for yourself.
Manderly has a hundred landed knights sworn directly to him. What is a landed knight? It is a knight with a holdfast and feudal lands that he rules on behalf of his overlord, with peasants working the lands.
That Ser Quincy Somebody in Feast was such a landed knight - the old knight who hid behind his holdfast walls when Rorge was impersonating the Hound and slaughtering all his villagers.
The point is, a landed knight has hundreds of peasants working his lands. A landed knight can raise a decent armed force as a result.
Say 20 warriors to be conservative. Kevan Lannister is just a landed Knight, and he can tells Cersei he can raise 300 men, but let's stick to 20 for the purpose of this argument.) That gives you 2000 men.
Next Manderly has a dozen petty lords under him. A petty lord is much more powerful than a landed knight. He can probably raise ten to 20 times the number of men, as where a landed knight has a holdfast and maybe some land around it, a lord may rule estates extending for hundreds or even thousands of square miles around him. That gives you probably 300 men per petty lord at least, resulting in maybe 4000 men from these 12 petty lords combined.
So already that would give Manderly around 6000 men.
That's before you even look at his own forces, or the thousands of refugees streaming into White Harbor. And then we haven't even talked about the men he is using to man his navy.
And that is without adding all the greater lords that he says take their lead from him, like the Flints of Widow's Watch, the Locke's, Ramsgate, the Sheepshead hills rulers etc.
Manderly is one of the greatest second tier lords in the realm (First Tier being the Great Houses). He is exceeded probably only by the Redwynnes and Hightowers outside of the Great Houses.
Edited by Free Northman, 11 May 2012 - 02:48 AM.
#57
Northern light
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Posted 11 May 2012 - 02:50 AM
Ramsay Gimp, on 11 May 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:
Guys, if the Manderlys alone could muster 10,000 men, Robb wouldn't have even needed to go back North to fight the Ironborn. He could have just sent a raven to White Harbor. And Wyman could have already overrun the Freys and Boltons and not waste time with all this plotting. If 10,000 were the true number, Robb's army in AGOT/ACOK should have been like 50,000 men at least
People get these inflated numbers and it pisses me off. The Manderlys are the richest Stark bannermen, but that doesn't mean they have the most numbers.
People get these inflated numbers and it pisses me off. The Manderlys are the richest Stark bannermen, but that doesn't mean they have the most numbers.
Perhaps, but Manderlys have 50 ships (perhaps he is exaggerating) which is about 2500-5000 men depending on the size of the crew. He also claims to have the most heavy cavalry in the North (exactly how many we don't now). We can also assume that he has a lot of foot soldiers also since he hiring all able bodied men in White Harbor, which according to Davos at the moment harbors a large number of refugees.
Why didn't Robb just send a Raven to White Harbor? Well, why didn't he just send a raven to the Dreadfort which had about 1000 men in reserve which even Ser Rodrik knew about.
Also, it takes awhile to raise a new host and the Iron Born was at the other side of the coast (which is far from White Harbor) and fight Iron born is a probably a tricky business and need a clever and able commander (it wasn't certain that Robb knew how shrewd lord Manderley really was). At the same time Manderley needs to able to protect White Harbor from enemies so he couldn't commit too much.
Don't forget that certain things happens and doesn't happen because Martin wants it that way.
Edited by Northern light, 11 May 2012 - 02:50 AM.
#58
Ramsay Gimp
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Posted 11 May 2012 - 02:52 AM
^You ever consider that he might have been exaggerating? There are several mentions in the series of lords who boast about their supposedly staggering numbers but fall short when the banners are called
I'm not disputing that the Manderlys are rich or powerful. Its just the 10,000 number doesn't make sense story-wise.
EDIT: this was to Free Northman
I'm not disputing that the Manderlys are rich or powerful. Its just the 10,000 number doesn't make sense story-wise.
EDIT: this was to Free Northman
Edited by Ramsay Gimp, 11 May 2012 - 02:54 AM.
#59
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Posted 11 May 2012 - 02:56 AM
So do you suggest that the Mountain Clans of the North, in the most harsh lands of the north, and the furthest north can muster more men the the most southern great lord of the north, with lands which are much better to live off, and which holds the only city in the north, and the greatest wealth? The Mountain Clans sent men with Robb south, for example Owen Norrey was killed at the Red Wedding Norrey's took heavy losses at the Red Fork against Celgane. Yet they are able to offer Stannis 3000 or 4000 men. I can't recall in my head what the number was.
House Manderly also only sent 20 knight's, their squires, 200 horse, and an unknown number of foot with Robb. Yet Lord Manderly goes to Winterfell with 300 men, and 100 of them are knights so Lord Manderly travels with 5 times the kngihts he sent Robb, and that wouldn't even be his largest force, as Knights would not make the bulk of your host, nor even the bulk of your horse in a host. It is suggested that most of Manderly forces, including horse, is elsewhere.
The North is a big place, if you look at the lands Manderly has under his control, it's pretty much half the size of any of the seven kingdoms. It takes time to muster forces in the north, which is why Robb marched with only 18k men at the onset of the war. It is very heavily suggested that given time, the North can muster 45,000 men.
As Bright Blue Eyes said, Maot Cailin is held by a large number of Ironborn, who also hold other areas of the North, and Winterfell. Also House Manderly and House Bolton have been fighting one another in a private war. You think Manderly is going to risk sending his forces a few weeks away with the Boltons at his back? Not to mention his orders from Robb to guard the coast, and himself in the middle of building a fleet. The North is pretty much divided at this point, and it needs Robb, not just because he has an army, but because he needs to rally the north to throw out the Ironborn, and stop the infighting. There are so many factors that go into way the North didn't rally and just throw the Ironborn out. If Winterfell never fell, Rodrik would likely have been able to do that, but events went another way.
House Manderly also only sent 20 knight's, their squires, 200 horse, and an unknown number of foot with Robb. Yet Lord Manderly goes to Winterfell with 300 men, and 100 of them are knights so Lord Manderly travels with 5 times the kngihts he sent Robb, and that wouldn't even be his largest force, as Knights would not make the bulk of your host, nor even the bulk of your horse in a host. It is suggested that most of Manderly forces, including horse, is elsewhere.
The North is a big place, if you look at the lands Manderly has under his control, it's pretty much half the size of any of the seven kingdoms. It takes time to muster forces in the north, which is why Robb marched with only 18k men at the onset of the war. It is very heavily suggested that given time, the North can muster 45,000 men.
As Bright Blue Eyes said, Maot Cailin is held by a large number of Ironborn, who also hold other areas of the North, and Winterfell. Also House Manderly and House Bolton have been fighting one another in a private war. You think Manderly is going to risk sending his forces a few weeks away with the Boltons at his back? Not to mention his orders from Robb to guard the coast, and himself in the middle of building a fleet. The North is pretty much divided at this point, and it needs Robb, not just because he has an army, but because he needs to rally the north to throw out the Ironborn, and stop the infighting. There are so many factors that go into way the North didn't rally and just throw the Ironborn out. If Winterfell never fell, Rodrik would likely have been able to do that, but events went another way.
#60
Free Northman
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Posted 11 May 2012 - 02:58 AM
Ramsay Gimp, on 11 May 2012 - 02:52 AM, said:
^You ever consider that he might have been exaggerating? There are several mentions in the series of lords who boast about their supposedly staggering numbers but fall short when the banners are called
I'm not disputing that the Manderlys are rich or powerful. Its just the 10,000 number doesn't make sense story-wise.
EDIT: this was to Free Northman
I'm not disputing that the Manderlys are rich or powerful. Its just the 10,000 number doesn't make sense story-wise.
EDIT: this was to Free Northman
It makes perfect sense. Manderly is cautious. Why would he rush out to confront 20,000 Iron Men well beyond his own lands, when Robb commanded him to guard the Eastern Coastline instead? He had his city to protect and ships to build.
We know Victarrion took the entire Iron Fleet up Saltspear to take Moat Cailin. That's 100 ships, meaning at least 10,000 men. Asha took 30 more to take Deepwood Motte. That's another few thousand men. Other raiding captains took some more.
Manderly on his own would be outnumbered if he marched off to confront them, plus he would be abandoning the key city in the North, which he was ordered to strengthen and protect by his King.
Lady Dustin also kept a lot of men back - the majority of her men in fact, when Robb marched South. She said so to Theon.
It makes perfect sense, storywise.
