57 replies to this topic

[David C. Hunter]

Any chance the Shadowbinder exist only in Dany's head?

No one has ever seen her except Dany. The person seems to be leading Dany down a path of destruction. The Targs have a history of obssesion with prophecies and everything Dany has done is because of these prophecies.

Any chance, they are all in Dany's head and will lead to her madness? I could be wrong, just asking

At least after the initial meeting

Edited by David C. Simmons, 10 May 2012 - 09:32 AM.

[Silver Spearwife]

Twas my interpretation, yes.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

David C. Simmons, on 10 May 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

Any chance the Shadowbinder exist only in Dany's head?

No one has ever seen her except Dany. The person seems to be leading Dany down a path of destruction. The Targs have a history of obssesion with prophecies and everything Dany has done is because of these prophecies.

Any chance, they are all in Dany's head and will lead to her madness? I could be wrong, just asking

At least after the initial meeting

All of her subsequent visits could be hallucinations or could be Quaithe using "glass candles" to talk to Dany. I don't see how she's been guiding Dany to destroy anything. She told her to go to Assahi and to not trust certain people. Dany hasn't heeded her advice, really.

EDIT: Actually I think Jorah saw Quaithe in Qarth when she told Dany "Beware."

Edited by QuaitheTheShadow, 10 May 2012 - 09:40 AM.

[Night Gathers]

This could very well be so, but in the TV series, if I'm not mistaken she tells Jorah "She needs protection, now more than ever."

[eyeheartsansa]

I've been toying with this idea as well.  I think she's some combination of night-shade after effects, Targeryan madness, and some kind of unexplained glass candle voodoo.

But it's clear that somewhere there is a real person named Quaithe because she's interacted with both Dany and Jorah.  I don't believe this person has followed Dany to Astapor and Mereen only to appear to her twice and say weird cryptic stuff.

[Eejit]

Glass candle appearances mostly.

[Blisscraft]

Maybe all of the later appearances are orchestrated to make other people think Dany is crazy.

[The Sunset King]

In one of Quaithe's earlier appearances, she seemed definitely to resort to some kind of shadow-binding projection technique to contact Daenerys.  It is possible that some of these appearances are hallucinations but they appear to be more likely to be genuine contacts with Quaithe.  Daenerys has not been hugely affected in either a positive or negative manner yet by Quaithe's warnings, although she seems to have quickly understood that the "Sun's Son" was likely a reference to Quenytn and the Dorne's sigil.  It will be interesting to see whether Daenerys heeds the warnings about Moqorro and the Greyjoys and what happens with that.

[Apple Martini]

I don't doubt that, somewhere, there is a real woman named Quaithe who talked to and was seen by both Dany and Jorah. The later visions ... those I don't know about. Whether Quaithe is actually talking to Dany or whether Dany is just going nuts. Regardless, for someone to give warnings that encourage paranoia to a person from a family known to let paranoia destroy them, I'm not sure Quaithe really has Dany's best interests in mind.

Think of it this way, though. If Dany goes back to Westeros and sees Aegon and starts telling everyone that he's fake because she saw a vision of a mummer's dragon, people will think she's crazy. Maybe that's the point.

[TheSpottedCat]

If she is a hallucination, how do you explain that she correctly predicted the arrival of the pale mare, Quentyn (the sun's son), Victarion (the kraken), Moqorro (the dark flame), Tyrion (the lion), Jon Connington (the griffin) and, according to theory, Aegon/Young Griff (the mummer's dragon)?

[eyeheartsansa]

That is a good question.

But dreams, visions and hallucinations always have more meaning in this world than in ours.  They're the fantasy equivalent of people in movies turning on the news just in time to see a headline that pertains to them.

[Winterfellian]

I think she is real enough and using glass candles to communicate with Danny. Why I cannot say. But in ACOK Ser Jorah sees her and hears her.
I don't have the book with me but quaithe told Dany to thrust no one because they are all after her dragons. After she leaves Ser Jorah remarks that she is right but that doesn't mean that she (Danny) should thrust her any more than she should thrust anyone else in Qarth.

[ViennaGirl]

love! I didn't think of this, but it would be amazing if, after the first real sighting, all other Quaithe conversations were in Dany's head. for her to go crazy would be interesting and sad. it would certainly add another dimension to her...a psychologically unstable and sympathetic (to readers) queen who sort of controls some dragons. I like it because in Westeros, Targaryan instability isn't usually sympathetically-portrayed, but with Dany it would be. I think it would be interesting...

[QuaitheTheShadow]

ViennaGirl, on 10 May 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

love! I didn't think of this, but it would be amazing if, after the first real sighting, all other Quaithe conversations were in Dany's head. for her to go crazy would be interesting and sad. it would certainly add another dimension to her...a psychologically unstable and sympathetic (to readers) queen who sort of controls some dragons. I like it because in Westeros, Targaryan instability isn't usually sympathetically-portrayed, but with Dany it would be. I think it would be interesting...

Why would she see Quaithe if she's going crazy? She knows nothing about Quaithe and has no reason to trust her. And if she is going nuts, then as one of the above posters mentioned - why are the warnings about Quentyn and the Kraken and Dark Flame accurate? Dany can't know they're coming unless she can see into the future herself.

Edited by QuaitheTheShadow, 10 May 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[David C. Hunter]

TheSpottedCat, on 10 May 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

If she is a hallucination, how do you explain that she correctly predicted the arrival of the pale mare, Quentyn (the sun's son), Victarion (the kraken), Moqorro (the dark flame), Tyrion (the lion), Jon Connington (the griffin) and, according to theory, Aegon/Young Griff (the mummer's dragon)?

Arent Targaryas known for having prophetic dreams? Im honestly asking. If thats the case then it could be that this is just Dany's interpretation of the prophecies, but they seem to be leading her down a dark road because whenever a Targ gets prophecy obsessed shit hits the fan

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

QuaitheTheShadow, on 10 May 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

And if she is going nuts, then as one of the above posters mentioned - why are the warnings about Quentyn and the Kraken and Dark Flame accurate? Dany can't know they're coming unless she can see into the future herself.

I agree that the heads up on dark flame et al. seems to indicate that the Quaithe visions are not a figment of Dany's imagination. (Fingers crossed that I'm not imagining your post.)

Apple Martini, on 10 May 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

Think of it this way, though. If Dany goes back to Westeros and sees Aegon and starts telling everyone that he's fake because she saw a vision of a mummer's dragon, people will think she's crazy. Maybe that's the point.

GRRM's definitely alluding to the history of Targ madness when it comes to Dany's character and story, in my mind. If Dany would arrive in Westeros when Aegon happens to be top dog... Slightly bratty, but generally amiable kid versus dragon lady referring to visions about false dragons and men without shadows, while also rambling on about fire and blood?

David C. Simmons, on 10 May 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

Arent Targaryas known for having prophetic dreams? Im honestly asking. If thats the case then it could be that this is just Dany's interpretation of the prophecies, but they seem to be leading her down a dark road because whenever a Targ gets prophecy obsessed shit hits the fan

In the cases I can think of, the Targs in question seemed to have been well aware that they had dreamed what came to pass.

[David Selig]

Dany is perfectly sane IMO, so I find the attempts to prove her descent into insanity quite amusing.

Edited by David Selig, 10 May 2012 - 06:20 PM.

[kwvapor]

She has the same effect on Dany---as Mel does on Stannis but later it seems Mel hopes over to Jon.

Some supernatural force pulling these two/three in unnatural direction.  Interesting!

[Ser Wun Wun]

Wasn't there a line in the books about ancient sorcerers using the glass candles to invade people's dreams, or something like that?  Dany seems to be sleeping whenever Quaithe contacts her lately.  She was lounging in a tub when Quaithe warned her about the Pale Mare and all that stuff in ADWD.  I also think Dany was alone in bed when contacted by Quatith at one point in ASOS as well.

So I think we know how Quaithe continues to contact Dany, we just don't know why. Personally, I don't think she is trying to mislead Dany or drive her mad though.

Edited by Ser Wun Wun, 10 May 2012 - 05:42 PM.

[Melpomene]

Quaithe appears to be quite real (in her own way at least, whether she is a person long dead or an actual living person, or however) and uses plenty of illusionary methods.



Or who knows, maybe Quaithe is just an avatar controlled by a creepy overweight middle aged man who is actually lounging about somewhere. Maybe Dany needs to call Rick Hansen.


I do agree though with what others have mentioned -  while Quaithe might not be imaginary and Dany is perfectly normal/sane, there could be problems later on of Dany becoming overworried with herself or others worried for her because of these unusual scenes. Who knows, maybe Dany will be in court, surrounded with hundreds of people, then Quaithe shows up in the middle of it all and only Dany sees her causing a major distraction and possible major dilemna.