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Mad Men, Season 5,


346 replies to this topic

#141 Triskele

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 06:41 PM

View PostLane Pryce, on 28 May 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

Now it is.

Also, Peggy is apparently making about $134,000 in 2012 money.

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You almost want to admire the guy for his balls, for the effortless grace of his full heel-turn. And by "admire the guy" we mean, of course, "shoot him in his fucking weasel face and let a pack of hungry coyotes eat out the buckshot."


#142 David Selig

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 06:45 PM

What a great episode. Really good acting and writing throughout.

Watching this and Blackwater within a few hours of each other was quite draining emotionally, that's for sure.

#143 Tears of Lys

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 07:49 PM

From the linky re: Pete...

You almost want to admire the guy for his balls, for the effortless grace of his full heel-turn. And by "admire the guy" we mean, of course, "shoot him in his fucking weasel face and let a pack of hungry coyotes eat out the buckshot."

Yup.  That about sums up how I feel about Pete.

#144 Harry the Heir

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 07:56 PM

View Postsumpthy, on 28 May 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

Well that was all on Pete. He brought it up to Joan in the first place then told the partners that she was amenable, then went to Don and told him the other partners were all in favour which wasn't the case. Roger was clearly disgusted with the idea that Joan would even consider it and Lane wasn't in favour.

Roger said very clearly that he wasn't going to stop the whole thing from going forward. So while he might have judged Joan for going along, he was hardly against it. And Lane wasn't against it either, he just wanted to make sure that Joan didn't ask for an immediate payout that would uncover his own embezzlement (while offering a bit of advice that I think was genuine, that it's important to demand what you're worth when you're in a position to do so).

I think Pete was telling the truth when he says that the partners voted in favor of it after Don left. Pete by himself doesn't have the authority to offer a 5% stake in the company, and Joan was clearly a partner by the end of the episode. (Also, why would Pete lie about something like that, when anybody else who was there could easily contradict him?)

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Don's a hypocrite though considering he fired Sal for not sleeping with Lee Garner Jr.

That's not why Don fired Sal. He fired Sal because he didn't believe that Lee was the sexual aggressor in that situation. He assumed that Sal, being gay, was the one who couldn't control himself.

Edited by Harry the Heir, 28 May 2012 - 08:03 PM.


#145 Commodore

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 08:18 PM

Was Joan going to suffer repercussions if she didn't do it? This scenario is a bit different than say a workplace harassment scenario. She could have refused and was in fact encouraged to do so by some (even if it was disingenuous). She named her price when she could have just balked.

Roger was pressured to humiliate himself for a client as well if I recall.

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That's not why Don fired Sal. He fired Sal because he didn't believe that Lee was the sexual aggressor in that situation. He assumed that Sal, being gay, was the one who couldn't control himself.

That's not the way I remember it. The choice was firing Sal or the entire firm folding, and Don chose the former.

Edited by Commodore, 28 May 2012 - 08:25 PM.


#146 Harry the Heir

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 08:37 PM

View PostCommodore, on 28 May 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

Was Joan going to suffer repercussions if she didn't do it?

Almost certainly, yes. Theoretically she could have said no, but realistically she would have gotten the blame had they not landed the Jaguar account, and that could easily have adverse consequences later on. And Joan doesn't have a contract, as we learned at the beginning of the season, so she could be replaced if the partners start to resent her for costing them money.

And like you said, only Don really would have supported her decision to say no. Everybody else really wanted her to go through with it.

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That's not the way I remember it. The choice was firing Sal or the entire firm folding, and Don chose the former.

That wasn't really the choice. There were ways to keep Sal and Lee Garner, Jr. from seeing each other until Don, or Roger, smoothed the situation over. Sal says as much to Don when he's explaining the situation. Don doesn't go along with that with he's disgusted with what he imagines to be Sal's inability to control himself around a very important client. Sal asks him whether he would have reacted the same if it was a woman involved, and Don replies, "That would depend on the girl, and what I knew about her."

Edited by Harry the Heir, 28 May 2012 - 08:38 PM.


#147 Baitac

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 08:40 PM

View PostCommodore, on 28 May 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

Was Joan going to suffer repercussions if she didn't do it? This scenario is a bit different than say a workplace harassment scenario. She could have refused and was in fact encouraged to do so by some (even if it was disingenuous). She named her price when she could have just balked.

Roger was pressured to humiliate himself for a client as well if I recall.



That's not the way I remember it. The choice was firing Sal or the entire firm folding, and Don chose the former.

If you don't understand the repercussions of Joan not sleeping with the guy and not getting the account AND you equate what she did with anything Roger did, then I can't help you.

#148 Commodore

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 09:48 PM

View PostA Senhora Baitac, on 28 May 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

If you don't understand the repercussions of Joan not sleeping with the guy and not getting the account AND you equate what she did with anything Roger did, then I can't help you.

What I'm saying is Joan had them over a barrel to a degree, otherwise they need not agree to her terms.

And you're right, her situation and Roger's are not comparable in degree of humiliation.

Edited by Commodore, 28 May 2012 - 09:52 PM.


#149 Harry the Heir

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 09:51 PM

View PostCommodore, on 28 May 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

What I'm saying is Joan had them over a barrel to a degree.

Only in the sense that she could name the price for which she was going to sleep with the Jaguar exec. She didn't realistically have the option to say no.

Also, it's absurd to say that Joan had them over a barrel when they didn't have to entertain the request in the first place. Nobody held a gun to Pete's head and told him to enter the flesh trade.

Edited by Harry the Heir, 28 May 2012 - 09:54 PM.


#150 Commodore

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 09:54 PM

View PostHarry the Heir, on 28 May 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

Only in the sense that she could name the price for which she was going to sleep with the Jaguar exec. She didn't realistically have the option to say no.

Disagree, the partners wanted her to do it but I don't see a majority of them punishing her for not.

#151 Harry the Heir

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 10:00 PM

View PostCommodore, on 28 May 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

Disagree, the partners wanted her to do it but I don't see a majority of them punishing her for not.

Bullshit. If they respected her as an employee with a long record of service, they never would have gone down this road in the first place. The fact that they were willing to bargain with her sexuality shows that she's only worth what she can offer the company in that moment, and the minute that she starts costing them money, she'll be punished for it. There's no reason for Joan to have confidence in the moral character of four men who are busy pimping her out for their own gain.

Sal was at Sterling Cooper for around ten years when he was fired, after all. There's no loyalty once somebody becomes a perceived liability.

Edited by Harry the Heir, 28 May 2012 - 10:02 PM.


#152 Commodore

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 10:16 PM

View PostHarry the Heir, on 28 May 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

Bullshit. If they respected her as an employee with a long record of service, they never would have gone down this road in the first place. The fact that they were willing to bargain with her sexuality shows that she's only worth what she can offer the company in that moment, and the minute that she starts costing them money, she'll be punished for it. There's no reason for Joan to have confidence in the moral character of four men who are busy pimping her out for their own gain.

She was willing to go down that road with them and bargain with her sexuality for financial gain. She was choosing to pimp herself out.

The fact that it was degrading and humiliating doesn't change the fact that it was an act of free will.

I don't see Don/Roger/Lane punishing Joan for not doing it. Pete would throw a tantrum but everyone hates him. Cooper who knows.

There's a big difference between asking/letting her do it (which is indeed shameful in its own right), and expecting/demanding she do it.

Edited by Commodore, 28 May 2012 - 10:18 PM.


#153 Commodore

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 10:17 PM

double post

Edited by Commodore, 28 May 2012 - 10:18 PM.


#154 Harry the Heir

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 10:23 PM

View PostCommodore, on 28 May 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

I don't see Don/Roger/Lane punishing Joan for not doing it. Pete would throw a tantrum but everyone hates him. Cooper who knows.

You "don't see" Roger and Lane doing that? Why not? What would stop them? Clearly not scruples, and it's hard to say that they're loyal to Joan.

Besides, it doesn't have to be an explicit punishment. All that needs to happen is that suddenly Joan doesn't seem like the asset that she was before, and then there are conversations about how Joan is distracted by her family responsibilities, and how they could probably save money by getting a younger girl to do the same job for less money, and then six months or a year from now Joan is laid off without the partners ever thinking explicitly, "This'll show her for not putting out."

Edited by Harry the Heir, 28 May 2012 - 10:25 PM.


#155 Rhom

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 08:24 AM

You know... this whole discussion reminds me of the famous Winston Churchill anecdote.

At a dinner party he asked a woman "Would you sleep with me for a million dollars?" To which she said yes.  He then said "Well then, would you sleep with me for ten dollars."  Her indignant response was "What kind of woman do you think I am?"  His reply:  "Madam, we've already determined what kind of woman you are, now we're just negotiating the price."

#156 AryaPrevails

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 08:34 AM

Lane's embezzlement will be discovered, probably by Joan (she hugged him in Roger's office after the call from Jaguar). Lane may then take some tragic, drastic action, or the partners, in order to keep that info off the street, banish him back to London (another form of personal Hell for Lane). Joan officially becomes CFO/COO, a job she's ostensibly been doing for years. I'd like to see that.

#157 Rockroi

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 10:06 AM

So, my two cents on this game-changing episode:

1).  Since this season started, several people have opined that if this show were really "real world" Peggy would have jumped ship by now.  She is marginalized, has great potential and her boss is a huge jerk to her.  Her departure was perfect and Don acted very appropiately for Don- at first he thinks its all fake and phoney; a ploy for more money.  Then he realizes that its true and he totally wraps himself in the reality of the loss.  I honestly thought that her departure was handled about as well as any development on this show.

2).  I am a bit torn on Joan's story-line.  Now, from a story-building point of view, it was a very well done move.  First, Pete is a smarmy peice of white goose shit the whole time.  He is all about what will make him look and feel best at the expense of all others- his wife, his partners, the hot red-head who sits in the windowless office.  He doesn't care if they all have to be fucked; so long as he makes out.  And the worst part? HE THINKS HE'S CLEVER!  Did you see how when he truend back to Joan, he acted like "Now, watch me show how subtle I am..." and then lays on that thick shit about 'I never wanted to do this'?"

Second, Joan got raped again and it felt just as horrid.  The show expanded Joan's (for lack of a better term) vulnerability by doing what Joan hates to do- exposing her to others.  She hates that the partners know, that they are advising her and that she not only won't say 'no' but that she is ashamed that she wants the pot o'gold at the end of this sleezy rainbow.  Hendricks played Joan with natural vulnerability and self-loathing all sealed under that armor of confidence and attitude that denies anything can ever really happen to her.  You know?  Like when Greg was raping her in Don's office and she just looked away?  Yeah, same thing.

Third, Lane.  Because sometimes desperation makes you part of the problem.  The complexity of making Lane a co-conspiritor in all this was stunning in how banal it was.  Lane does not want Joan fucked by some loathsome fuck.  But he wants that loathsome fuck's business.  And so he concocts this terror-play about why Joan can make out.  Its creepy in its dignity.

But... but ... but ...but....

First, the entire story line felt forced.  I felt like I was watching a show about being a woman in a 1960s office.  But, wait, you may say- it IS a show about women in 1960s offices.  Yeah, but ... it was never this "in your face"; never this shallow base and crude.  It was so ham-fisted that I felt crushed by it.  I mean yes, I get it these men all want Jaguar and they all want the office to prosper... but they are all cool with Joan getting fucked to get the car?  Really?  Not one of them made a stand (when it mattered)?  They are all okay with having Joan used like that?  Not one of them has a sense of chivalry?  Honor?  Really?

I did not buy it.  I thought the show ignored this point- that all these men would look the other way (in one form or another) for a very real reason: it was so weak that if they drew too much attention to it it would expose how shallow it was.

Second, I thought the whole time that the show a) wanted a way to get Hendricks more involved in the show but b ) had no legitimate way to do it other than make her partner and c) to make that happen they jury-rigged this "Fuck For Jaguar" to get there.  It felt exactly that way while I was watching the episode.  As soon as they said "5%" I was like, "Okay, so this is going to happen."  The obvous manipulation of all that for this moment (making Joan a partner) was tedious and unrealistic; it felt forced and obvious.

Third (and expansion of the first point but it bares its own area): Roger.  I was mortified that Rodger would just sit there and be okay with this.  First, ITS COMING FROM PETE CAMPELL!  Rodger hates Pete- but he believes what he is saying?  Two, he still pines fro Joan and he never bothers to talk to her about this?  Again, I know why- if Joan and Rodger did speak it would expose how shallow this was.  Three, and maybe the most unforgivable, was the insertion of Don in Joan's appartment.  Don tells Joan not to do this, that its never worth it etc etc.  Why?  I can understand the "Mom was a prostitute" thing, but that seems pretty vacant all things considered.  Everything he says is fine, but seems like its more to absolve Don of any sin rather than to save Joan.

That's why while Don was talking I almost jumped out of my seat and said "This should be Rodger."  Rodger has a real relationship with Joan; he has strong ties to her and wants to do right by her.  Rodger should have told Joan it was not worth it; that she should not do this.  But if Rodger did it would have been immediately!  Not like Don who waited until the deed was done (he didn't know... I assume).

To me, the Joan story-line was very well done and executed as well as it could have been.  But only on the surface.  As one looks deeper you see the shallowness and shottyness of the product.  Its got shine and glitz but after some time you see the flaws.  Much in the same way people had to bring a tool box with them when they drove their Jaguars, I felt that I had to avert my eyes to avoid the weaknesses.

Overall, though, the symetry of the episode combined with the triangle of Joan-Pete-Peggy was classic and very well done.  Peggy's departure was great; Joan's assention undertsnadble.  BUt in getting there?  I just think that if you look to closely you get the feeling it should not have been done at all.

#158 Baitac

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 10:12 AM

View PostRhom, on 29 May 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

You know... this whole discussion reminds me of the famous Winston Churchill anecdote.

At a dinner party he asked a woman "Would you sleep with me for a million dollars?" To which she said yes.  He then said "Well then, would you sleep with me for ten dollars."  Her indignant response was "What kind of woman do you think I am?"  His reply:  "Madam, we've already determined what kind of woman you are, now we're just negotiating the price."

Or how about this. A woman is approached and told that if she sleeps with Hitler, World War II will be over, but people will understand if she doesn't. She says Ok, but if she has to sleep with a pig, she'll take a million dollars because she know the cost of having slept with Hitler.

Sorry, I don't mean to offend. I'm just prickly about this whole thing, not only because this happened at all, but because it happened to Joan.

#159 Harry the Heir

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 01:08 PM

View PostRockroi, on 29 May 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

but they are all cool with Joan getting fucked to get the car?  Really?  Not one of them made a stand (when it mattered)?  They are all okay with having Joan used like that?  Not one of them has a sense of chivalry?  Honor?  Really?

Chivalry? Honor? When have we ever seen that on Mad Men? Sterling Cooper Draper Price, like its predecessor, is built in large part on using women as currency to attract clients. Pete, Roger and Ken have all hired prostitutes for clients, and Lane has covered the cost. (That's leaving aside the fact that all the partners save testicle-less Bert have used prostitutes for their own personal use.) Most of the partners have also been willing to use their position to convince women to have sex with them. Don slept with two of his secretaries; Roger offered a part in a commercial to one woman to have sex, and his relationship with Jane started out as a quid pro quo in which he promised to keep Joan from firing her. Now, what happens to Joan is arguably a couple of steps worse--the level of direct pressure is higher, and it's more calculated--but it's hardly unthinkable considering how little regard they give to women otherwise.

Roger is a bit of special case, because he has feelings for Joan of a sort. But there's a element of selfishness there--he never left his wife for Joan, and in fact never seriously considered it even though they were together for at least five years. (In the first season episode "Babylon," he says to her that before he met her, he was thinking about leaving his wife.) She was always therapy for him, something to make him feel better, not somebody that he ever seriously attempted to have a life with. And Roger needs the money that Jaguar can bring, since he's supporting one ex-wife and one soon-to-be ex-wife, and he's spending large amounts of cash otherwise. And we've seen him make drastic decisions in order to make money--he was the driving force behind SC merging with PPL; that decision affected a lot of people, but Roger's main concern was covering his expensive divorce to Mona.

(As for Lane, I think it's pretty clear that he's a weak man who would rather go along than make waves, most of the time. His role in PPL was all about going wherever he was told to go; and of course the only reason he's still with his wife is because his father beat him until he said he would.)

#160 sumpthy

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 01:38 PM

View PostRockroi, on 29 May 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

That's why while Don was talking I almost jumped out of my seat and said "This should be Rodger."  Rodger has a real relationship with Joan; he has strong ties to her and wants to do right by her.  Rodger should have told Joan it was not worth it; that she should not do this.  But if Rodger did it would have been immediately!  Not like Don who waited until the deed was done (he didn't know... I assume).

I think Roger was disgusted by the idea that Joan was amenable to it (as planted in his head by Pete Campbell. Coupled with her not wanting to play a part in her son's life, I think Roger has this idea in his head that Joan has somehow changed.

Also, Don didn't just go there out of friendship to Joan or because he's the son of a prostitute or even because the producers wanted to absolve him of any guilt. Don is a proud man and he didn't want to get SCDP's first car in a way that the achievement would be tainted for him. One of his major arguments against the whole thing to the partners was that he felt that his and Ginsberg's work was good enough to get the account on its own merits. You could see in his reluctance to join the festivities that it was a bit of a hollow victory for him.

Off topic, but one of my friends has taken to referring as Pete Campbell as 'Littlefinger' after this episode which I thought was kind of funny.



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