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[TWOW Spoiler] Night's King - A Turn From Fire to Ice: The Story of Stannis Baratheon


Babeldygob

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HBO removed the reference to the "Night's King" and claimed it was a mistake. Whether or not you believe that, it should be noted that The Others are not referred to as The Others in the TV show. They possibly could have taken a name from elsewhere in the lore ("Night's King") and slapped it on the being we otherwise know as The Great Other from the books. Or an intern might have gotten a little ahead of themselves. Either way I don't think people should so easily accept the idea that the character we saw was the Night's King of the books just based on a single accidental mention in an episode guide for the show.

Well he was a white walker and he did have a crown. So that leaves two options:

1) Night's King--original or otherwise

2)The Great Other

Of course these two characters could be one and the same. Mel's point of view could just be a different take on the Night's King legend.

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I have no problem accepting the possible validity to this theory...what I do have a problem with is the part where you say that he has proven himself to be a good king. A fanatic for a king would be devestating to the realm. Stannis burned men alive who tried to sue for peace. I don't care if you believe that peace with the lannisters could never be possible, burning a man alive as a human sacrifice is about as morally wrong as it gets, oh wait he wanted to burn his NEPHEW alive. I will not deny that he is a good commander and would make a good hand to the king but he would be a horrible king. Im sorry stannis lovers...stannis is a good soldier and general but he would be an absolutely horrible king

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Well he was a white walker and he did have a crown. So that leaves two options:

1) Night's King--original or otherwise

2)The Great Other

Of course these two characters could be one and the same. Mel's point of view could just be a different take on the Night's King legend.

So far as we know in the books, the Night's King was a human.

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There are enough obvious parallels between Stannis and Melisandre one the one hand, and the details of the Night's King legend on the other that it seems safe to conclude that they were deliberately planned out by GRRM as part of the plot line. These parallels are probably building up to development or laying the foundations of something big with Stannis. This theory supplies one plausible and good explanation for the situation. If Stannis turns to ice then he can be a major player in the game again, but with fire it would be tough to pose much of a threat to Aegon or Daenerys (unless the Iron Bank is a huge factor).


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  • 2 weeks later...

Stannis has REPEATEDLY called the Others 'the true enemy'. Stan ruling over the Others is tantamount to Stan bending the knee to Renly.


Also, I doubt Mel will just suddenly ditch Stan, Jon, even if he's Azor Ahai, has zero power at this point, so she needs Stan, the only king who cares about the Others, to help Jon defeat the Others.


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Perhaps unStan if Stan falls in battle or dies on a mission?



Stan losing it, snapping and just raining the Others onto Westeros is not something I can imagine.



The Night's King might be making a return or perhaps the vision referred to him.



This said, Stannis does seem to be on a dark path with Mel leading him there, so who knows. Nothing is certain.


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  • 2 weeks later...

Stannis has REPEATEDLY called the Others 'the true enemy'. Stan ruling over the Others is tantamount to Stan bending the knee to Renly.

Also, I doubt Mel will just suddenly ditch Stan, Jon, even if he's Azor Ahai, has zero power at this point, so she needs Stan, the only king who cares about the Others, to help Jon defeat the Others.

Stannis could change his mind once Shireen gets sacrificed to the Red God. That could be viewed as a failure of the Red God and could shake him up and change his mind. He just wants his throne and will get it by any means necessary. It is his birthright after all as he would say.

He'll have to fight the Battle of Winterfell before anything else happens with his Night's Kingship.

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The Night's king made a pact with other (s).

Craster clearly made a pact with other (s).

So the whole "how does one make deal with others" is done at least twice!....

Stannis committed 'kinslaying' the worst taboo known in westeros that is looked down upon by the gods....

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The Night's king made a pact with other (s).

Craster clearly made a pact with other (s).

So the whole "how does one make deal with others" is done at least twice!....

Stannis committed 'kinslaying' the worst taboo known in westeros that is looked down upon by the gods....

Guest right is the worst taboo, as evidenced by people hating the Freys much more than they hate Tyrion. If you get the idea than kinslaying>guest right from Karstark's "no man is so accursed", remember that according to Karstark, you are 'kin' if your last common ancestor died 1000 years ago.

The fact that someone kinslew =/= someone being the Night's King. Last time I checked, Tyrion was not the Night's King. And Tyrion CERTAINLY KINSLEW OUT OF HIS OWN VOLITION WHEN HE DID NOT HAVE TO, unlike Stannis; in the books it's unclear whether he actually knew about the facts of Renly's death, and the situation was kinslay or be kinslain with Renly's army being eight times larger than Stannis's.

Also, a list of characters who are not the Night's King, but would be with your "logic":

1. Stannis

2. Tyrion

3. Ramsay

4. Craster

5. Euron

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  • 4 weeks later...

He didn't commit the deed though, Mel did and we don't know if it was with his approval. Thats like saying Dany is a kinslayer for allowing Drogo to kill her brother.

Technically, Dany is a kinslayer, she involuntarily killed her mother.

Oh, I guess she's the Night's Queen! LOL

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“There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man." - Varys

I'm just starting my Stannis reread, basically I'm reading every chapter that involves Stannis physically.

I want to present a theory that has probably been discussed a few times, but with the Theon chapter I want to go deeper into it.

Stannis started out his journey to the Iron Throne in Dragonstone, the former seat of House Targaryen, much on that island is about Fire and Dragons. He had Melisandre as a Thrall of Fire basically, not really buying into the whole Lord of Light thing, rather using it as a tool for his campaign. He recognizes that Melisandre has (fire)power and uses it for his own goals several times.

Later on, he goes North to help the Wall against the wildlings and establishes his seat in the Nightfort, which is the former seat of the Night's King, a lot of things here have to do with Ice and Coldness. Whereas Dragonstone was a beautiful island with a beautiful carved out castle, he now has a broken down castle, with nothing much going for it except its history. Since when was the creepiest castle in the dampest island in the 7K beautiful? You seem to think it's beautiful as fire should be a good thing, but it's A Song of Ice AND Fire, not Ice OR Fire. The fact that both Dany (Fire) and Bran (Ice) are POVs indicates that the story is about balance between ice and fire, not a battle between evil Others and good Dany. So the fact that he goes from ice to fire says nothing about Stannis's morality.

Dragonstone(Fire) ---> The Nightfort(Ice)

Stannis has a pretty hard time on his campaign. The first thing he does is killing his brother, using Dark Forces powered by Fire. He recognizes the power of fire a lot and uses it to see his future through Melisandre.-Except that he just had a nightmare about killing his brother. Mel killed Renly, not Stannis.

After that he loses the battle of the Blackwater because of Wildfire and flees. He returns to Dragonstone and because of this defeat he almost turns to the bad side by planning to burn Edric Storm for power. Davos prevents him from doing that and informs Stannis of the real threat.

Here we see how Stannis, driven by hopelessness, does not refrain from doing bad things for the greater good. We see how for him the end justifies the means if other options run out.

He then goes North to fight the real problem, but Stannis is only convinced because he sees it as a tool to make the realm follow him in order to get the Iron Throne. Despite his victory, Jon Snow is unwilling to let him have the wildlings and become a Stark to help him.-Yeah, except "That's where I'll find the enemy that I was born to fight" and "The only enemy that matters." How is Stannis fighting the Others for the IT? He's fighting the Others cuz that's his job. And how does Jon not being a Stark have to do with anything? He's not being a Stark because of his vows, not because he hates Stannis. Also, Jon took naked and unarmed wildlings and gave Stannis the clans. Yeah, Jon totally hates Stannis, because I'm obviously Jon Snow.

Despite this effort Stannis makes to help the realm, the realm still doesn't recognize him as a true king. This is something he very much despises. He gets more and more driven by his hate for the realm and everyone in it who doesn't recognize him.-He's not driven by hate, he's still driven by justice. Give me evidence about this supposed hate.

When Stannis departs from the Nightfort to get back Deepwood Motte, he basically starts his transition from Fire to Ice. He uses the forces of fire less and less now that Melisandre isn't with him and starts hating on the snows. He recognizes that the cold and the North are powerful things and he has a hard time overcoming them.-He's realizing that the North is cold, not that ice is powerful. He seems to be more fire-inclined, actually, as he spends days watching fires.

Again despite his effort freeing Deepwood Motte from Asha Greyjoy, no Northern Lords except for Alysane openly declare for him. They still don't want to bend the knee even though he's proven again and again that he can handle the realm and that he'd be a good King.-Alysane Mormont, Sybelle Glover, Old Flint, Big Bucket, the Liddle, Mors Umber....Yeah, totally.

In the Theon chapter, we see Asha making the request of offering Theon to the Old Gods at the Hearttree. As we see in Bran's adventures, offering blood to the Hearttree seems to have been a big thing in the olden days. We also see that Stannis has a plan to use his environment(Ice) to somehow trap his enemies in the battle.-He'll also use fire to draw the Freys into the village. So no.

In this chapter we also see that even though Stannis is doing what's good for the North, he learns of an attempt of a Northern Lord trying to turn his cloak. Again he is rewarded with treason and hate for his efforts.

Power of R'hlorr(Fire) ---> Power of the Old Gods(Ice)

Now here's the theory I have:

Stannis will offer Theon to the Hearttree. Something will happen that convinces Stannis of the power of Ice and he will start using that rather than Fire to help him on his campaign. He wins the battle and solves the North's problem with the Boltons.

Now what happens next? If he establishes the North and brings back peace, what will they do? Will they follow him to the South to take back what is rightfully his, now that Winter has come? I think not, I think they will tell Stannis to wait until the Winter is out. They will let him have the Nightfort and let him be to do whatever he wants, because he saved the North basically. They will swear they're his, but they won't do anything for him. There is even a big chance Manderly will crown Rickon King in The North once he gets his hands on him. Another treason. Justin Massey's resolve seems weak and he might even betray Stannis. We saw with Dareon what Braavos might do to you. The gold of the Iron Bank will do Stannis no good if he can't find any sellsword company anymore.-Stannis will probably accept the lords' proposals and winter in Winterfell as nobody's going to invade the North in winter. Also, will Wyman really betray Stannis? The North remembers, and it remembers that Stannis saved their butts.. If Justin betrays Stannis, Stannis will send Richard Horpe, who is a fervent R'hllorist and thus won't betray Stannis. Stannis is much less hopeless than in ASOS, and so he won't suddenly go evil. We saw how Stannis took an entire book to kill Edric. Stannis needs about 1500 pages to decide on whether to be the NK or not, then there's no space.

Basically, Stannis is again fucked and has too few forces to do anything. He will sit at the Nightfort and think of ways to help him get The Iron Throne and punish those who defied him and keep defying him. He will try to help out against the Others if they finally show up and he will see their power(Ice).-He's crazy if he's fighting with Northern soldiers in the middle of winter. S is not crazy.

Now something clicked when I read the chapter where Stannis meets his brother. Stannis' sense of justice dictates that anyone who doesn't bend the knee will be destroyed.

And Stannis will do exactly that. He will bring justice down upon the realm. At some point he will be so bitter, he will break before he bends. Whether this means he should actually die or just be overturned by the events that come to pass, I don't know. After what happened at the Wall he might not have the patience for another choosing, if there even is one. I could see him making himself Lord Commander, as well as King. He might somehow make a pact with the Others, convinced of their power. It might be that all The Others need to start their rampage on humanity is a leader. He will LEAD them down upon the realm, destroying ANYONE who denies him, unwilling to bend the knee. He will be the Night's King come again and lead the attack from The Others upon a treasonous realm. He will bring JUSTICE to those who deserve it. He will use the power of ICE to destroy those who defied him. The treason has gone on for too long and it is time for true justice. He would have finally found the army he needs and has always wanted, devoted to him, without question, without doubt, carrying out his every order, unyielding like he himself is.-Stannis is a man of justice. The law dictates the LC is chosen. He'll respect the law. Also, Stannis bends pretty often. (Fake) conversion to R'hllor, not killing a traitor like Davos, not executing Selyse for randomly burning people, not converting the clansmen.... Donal Noye knew Stannis when he was 19, remember, and people change all the time.

Things from the books that support this theory:

There's possible foreshadowing of this in the fact that Shireen has greyscale and the Wildlings are all like WTF THIS KID CARRIES A CURSE. It might be foreshadowing in how Stannis might father other children to an 'Ice woman' that will be 'terrible abominations' like Old Nan says it.-That's rather foreshadowing about Shireen spreading greyscale.

Referring to a dream that Dany had in Storm of Swords:

This sequence is full of parallels between the war Robert fought and the war Dany is about to fight.

Rhaegar[Dany] on his horse[her dragon] fights Robert[stannis] Baratheon and their army of rebels[Others] at the Trident.

Remember that the Usurper doesn't necessarilly indicate Robert. If Dany returns to Westeros, she will see Stannis and his army as The Usurper.-OK. It could be Stannis, but then by Occam's Razor the logical assumption is that the northmen are cloaked in ice. They are probably the Others, but no indication it's Stannis.

In the House of the undying Dany sees:

This obviously refers to Stannis. I think it is interesting though that the only things that distinguish him are the Red Sword(made by Melisandre), the Blue Eyes(parallel with the Others) and no shadow(Light is needed for shadow). In the darkness, in the night, Night's King Stannis would have a red sword, blue eyes and no shadow.-He still carries Lightbringer, which is light. If Stannis is NK he would have thrown it away. The lack of a shadow is foreshadowing of the shadow babies, not because there's no light.

Not completely in line with my theory but there are several parallels between Melisandre and the Ice Queen of the Night's King another member has already remarked upon;

Appearance:

Melisandre - "Her eyes were red, but her skin was smooth and white ... pale as cream."

Night's King Queen - "...skin as white as the Moon and eye like blue stars."

Skin temperature:

Melisandre - "Jon could feel her heat, even through his wool and boiled leather..."

Night's King Queen - "...her skin was cold as ice..."

Soul Draining Coitus:

Melisandre - "...the king's fires burn so low i dare not draw off any more to make another son."

Night's King Queen - "...when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul..."

Sacrificing:

Melisandre - "Give me the boy for R'hllor."

Night's King Queen - "...he had been sacrificing to the Others..."

The only difference I notice is the flip between Hot/Cold - Red/Blue - Fire/Ice. Both want to sacrifice people. Both drain the soul from people when they have sex. Stannis might reunite with Melisandre when he goes back to The Wall or he might not, but the parallels are striking and maybe Melisandre takes a turn to the Ice too, who knows? Maybe Melisandre and the Night's King Queen are ONE AND THE SAME. People have already remarked upon how she seems to be using a glamour for herself and how she doesn't need food nor sleep.-We had Mel's FUCKING POV. And apparently Mel's actually a R'hllorist. Have you actually talked to a fundamentalist? They don't change... Mel'll stay fire.

This is when Davos talks to Stannis about burning Edric Storm and what his kingship might cost him. It seems to me foreshadowing to a point where Stannis might actually get burned and may rise again as something darker, something broken. You could discuss that this is about Viserys, but the crown Viserys got, was much different from a crown of flames, which is very resemblant to Stannis' crown. It might foreshadow how Fire is going to consume Stannis. He would then rise again as Ice.-That's foreshadowing of his quest for the crown killing him. Becoming the NK=/=Death.

In Sam's chapter where Aemon dies on the ship, he has one of his last conversations with Sam about Azor Ahai/PtwP and he says:

We also learn from Bran's adventures that there's a gate through The Wall at the Nightfort.

This makes it more difficult for my theory if Stannis plans to use it, but he could become Lord Commander instead of Jon. He has said before that he would appoint one if it took too long. Will he have patience for the voting? Especially now that Black Brothers have killed Jon he might think it's necessary that he takes over before they all become corrupt and treasonous. Maybe he will use the Night's Watch for his own purposes, this would align with the Night's King theory. By doing this, the Night's Watch falls or at least a key point to their existence. The fact they can't take part in squabbles between Houses. Stannis has already tried to convince Jon to fight for him. If he becomes LC, what would stop him from doing just that?-He said he'd make the NW regret not choosing a LC faster. Knowing Stannis is a legalist he probably would have made the guy with the most votes (Mallister) LC. Stannis making himself the LC by force is like Stannis surrendering to Renly: Misunderstanding of characterization. Also, Stannis would have heard about the stories about the Others. Why would he ever make a deal with one? To be LC Stannis would have to be a man of the NW, how would he break the NW vows when he's a legalist? And Stannis offered to free Jon of his vows just like Robb wanted. Also, would the NW just stay there and do nothing? This is getting crackpot.

It would be quite ironical to see the Night's Watch align with the Others. The Wall would stand strong no more and Stannis could use the gate. This is all far out there, but knowing GRRM...-It would have been ironical for Jaime to kill Tywin. Did he? Nope.

So, what do you think? There may be more hints to this than I spelled out here. I feel the Night's King HAS TO come again. There are so much dark stories about it and now that Stannis sits at the Nightfort I don't think anyone else is going to own that castle.-Thank the Crone, there are no more "hints". And I feel like Dany HAS TO be dead by now, does that make it true? Nope. Also, the show's NK scene was probably a spoiler, if so the NK still exists.

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Indeed, Stannis is pretty much a straight villain as far as I am concerned. His main difference from Roose Bolton is that Bolton acted later and was exposed sooner.

I know that many people think Melisandre acted on her own, and I guess that may well be technically true. But that in no way absolves Stannis from the responsibility for Renly's death or the way it happened, unless we assume that he commited a basic, major strategic blunder in choosing to face Renly with nothing near enough troops to pose a real challenge to him - which is grasping at straws, since he is supposed to be a faily compentent general as opposed to a clueless, inexperienced novice.

I am no fan of Stannis's. Frankly, I cannot figure out why so many people like him and wish for him to rule. I don't think Stannis is as complete a villian as Roose or Ramsey...yet. However, he is motivated by jealousy and ambition. In his pursuit to claim what he believes is "rightfully" his, he dishonors his wife, his brother, and his gods. He is even gullible enough to believe in a firery sword which gives no heat. Hum....Stannis is a lot like that sword of his....losts of show, but no substance.Davos loves him, though, and I love Davos, maybe because he is so loyal and humble. However, Davos, himself, had to save Stannis from crimes he would have committed otherwise (blood of a king, indeed).

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I'm not quite familiar with that Fool on the Hill trope, but Bloodraven seems to yield quite powerful influence. Yes, it is debatable to what end, but he definitely seems to be pushing an agenda of sorts...

Beatles song

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Guest right is the worst taboo, as evidenced by people hating the Freys much more than they hate Tyrion. If you get the idea than kinslaying>guest right from Karstark's "no man is so accursed", remember that according to Karstark, you are 'kin' if your last common ancestor died 1000 years ago.

The fact that someone kinslew =/= someone being the Night's King. Last time I checked, Tyrion was not the Night's King. And Tyrion CERTAINLY KINSLEW OUT OF HIS OWN VOLITION WHEN HE DID NOT HAVE TO, unlike Stannis; in the books it's unclear whether he actually knew about the facts of Renly's death, and the situation was kinslay or be kinslain with Renly's army being eight times larger than Stannis's.

Also, a list of characters who are not the Night's King, but would be with your "logic":

1. Stannis

2. Tyrion

3. Ramsay

4. Craster

5. Euron

Not to mention in this case it was with the assistance of one of the gods that Renly was slain...

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  • 2 weeks later...

I really like Stannis and hope this will not happen, but there are some compelling arguments, BUT, I think one thing you might be ignoring/overlooking is the fact that Stannis pretty much went: ''Fuck it, fuck the Iron Throne, I'll do my duty as King instead and then see to the Iron Throne afterwards'', he literally gave up his seat of power at Dragonstone to prepeare for the coming of the Others, I can never see Stannis willingly throwing his lot in with the others, it just creates a syntax error in my head.


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