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THE BASTARD'S LETTER


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@bemused, that seems to be an accurate representation of the SSM article, and that is probably where the Q&A came from. In my memory, it seems it was like 1-2 months after DwD was released, but that was a very, very busy time. Remember that he had just solved the Meereenese knot with using Barristan as a POV. We get some wonderful clues about Harrenhal and Ashara from him, too. So, I think GRRM was just hedging his bets about POVs in the future, too, where another knot might develop because of converging POV characters.

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mance is definitely in a cage hanging on the walls of winterfell, am i right? i mean, the boltons know the spearwives helped Jeyne and Theon escape, it only makes sense they could round up the rest of them and "Abel" the singer. I don't think it would take much to get the truth out of them considering the Bastard of Bolton's crazy torture methods,

it makes sense to me that Ramsay would balk Jon with a letter demanding Stannis's entourage at the Wall, he probably figures Stannis is either frozen dead in the Wolfswood or just frozen stuck in the Wolfswood. either way he figures a nasty threat to Jon and the Watch will force them to give up what's left of the Baratheon court, meanwhile the boltons will send their men into the wolfswood to either find Stannis's dead frozen corpse, or find his stuck army and do battle with them. We figure this because of the Theon sample chapter from TWOW where we hear Stannis say that he is gonna wait there at the frozen lake for the bolton armies to come for them, and that he was going to use their surroundings and the elements to their advantage.

i hope Stannis get all those bastard Boltons and Freys and kills 'em all, i HATE the freys, they don't even have their own house words!

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Is it possible that Ramsey tore the ruby from Mance after capturing and torturing him, and swapped identities to write the letter? Because the letter is just SO Ramsey and yet... has Wildling parts to it, as others have pointed out. I'm wondering if the Ruby FORCES a certain behaviour change or gives insight into who you are masquerading as. Hence, Ramsey writes as his hateful, spiteful self, but with Wildling undertones.

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@stann1sbaratheon

Mance is not "definitely" in a cage, it's possible but it's not a certainty. We don't know what the Bolton's know because the only PoV in Winterfell left w/ Theon. This means we don't know where or when the Bolton's learned of the escape. We don't know what's happened to Abel or the spearwives who left Theon Holly, and Freyna in the yard of winterfell. Keep in mind Abel knows that shits going down, the Bolton's don't and the Frey/Manderly conflict as well as the Feys falling into Mors' trap, all of which has presumably only increased the confusion w/in Winterfell aiding Mance and the spearwives. It makes sense that they could in fact slip away in all of the chaos.

Why do you treat the letter as though it's a fact in relation to Mance but not Stannis? Why does Bolton want Val and "Mance's" baby? why does he refer to Jon and the NW as "black crows" - a decidedly Wildling term? Why didn't he write the letter in blood and attach some skin? why not actually seal the letter w/ a proper Bolton seal? Why announce to the Realm that he's lost his bride and claim over the Winterfell and the North. Why not just hunt them down?

@mrlukeduke

Mance isn't glamoured in winterfell. No one describes him as looking like rattleshirt. he's described as appearing like mance. He's also never described as having a large ruby, which would be a noticeable sign of wealth on a traveling singer.

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Is it possible that Ramsey tore the ruby from Mance after capturing and torturing him, and swapped identities to write the letter? Because the letter is just SO Ramsey and yet... has Wildling parts to it, as others have pointed out. I'm wondering if the Ruby FORCES a certain behaviour change or gives insight into who you are masquerading as. Hence, Ramsey writes as his hateful, spiteful self, but with Wildling undertones.

I don't know; I did not get the impression that Mance was behaving more Rattleshirt-like under the glamor, but I might not have been paying too much attention to that particular issue.

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I believe Mance left as Rattleshirt,he had to really.But that he arrived as Mance,knowing that it was highly unlikely that anyone would recognize him.

But it's possible that he has the ruby and that Mel has taught him the "prayer and the whispered words" to activate a glamour.It's like I'm sending you on a dangerous mission,here's a weapon that might come in useful.

Lots of fun implications with this,though it's all speculative.

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Is it possible that Ramsey tore the ruby from Mance after capturing and torturing him, and swapped identities to write the letter? Because the letter is just SO Ramsey and yet... has Wildling parts to it, as others have pointed out. I'm wondering if the Ruby FORCES a certain behaviour change or gives insight into who you are masquerading as. Hence, Ramsey writes as his hateful, spiteful self, but with Wildling undertones.

Why would Ramsay want to appear as Mance Rayder? Even if the ruby worked that way, Ramsay would surely want the letter to sound like he wrote it?

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...why does he refer to Jon and the NW as "black crows" - a decidedly Wildling term? ...

the use of crow to describe a night's watchman is not uniquely a wildling term. It is used by a southeron knight in Arya IV ACOK to describe Yoren and his band - so it seems to be used generally throughout the seven kingdoms.

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we know that stann

@stann1sbaratheon

Mance is not "definitely" in a cage, it's possible but it's not a certainty. We don't know what the Bolton's know because the only PoV in Winterfell left w/ Theon. This means we don't know where or when the Bolton's learned of the escape. We don't know what's happened to Abel or the spearwives who left Theon Holly, and Freyna in the yard of winterfell. Keep in mind Abel knows that shits going down, the Bolton's don't and the Frey/Manderly conflict as well as the Feys falling into Mors' trap, all of which has presumably only increased the confusion w/in Winterfell aiding Mance and the spearwives. It makes sense that they could in fact slip away in all of the chaos.

Why do you treat the letter as though it's a fact in relation to Mance but not Stannis? Why does Bolton want Val and "Mance's" baby? why does he refer to Jon and the NW as "black crows" - a decidedly Wildling term? Why didn't he write the letter in blood and attach some skin? why not actually seal the letter w/ a proper Bolton seal? Why announce to the Realm that he's lost his bride and claim over the Winterfell and the North. Why not just hunt them down?

@mrlukeduke

Mance isn't glamoured in winterfell. No one describes him as looking like rattleshirt. he's described as appearing like mance. He's also never described as having a large ruby, which would be a noticeable sign of wealth on a traveling singer.

we know that the letter contains NO truths about Stannis because of the WOW sample chapter, which in the timeline of events takes place after ADWD, we know that Stannis is still alive but trapped by the elements on the frozen laketown in the Wolfswood. So because we know that Stannis is alive, that makes the info in the bastard's letter about him false.

But the info about Mance, i mean, the details and Mance and the spearwives, their decpeption, and the abduction of his bride the fake arya, to me it seems like this is the only bit of truth in the letter. Ramsay smashed the old men and green boys of the last hearth beneath the wall, and now he wants his bride back, and he called Theon "reek", saying "and i want my reek", its gotta be Ramsay, who else is so invested in Theon,? even Theon admits that after Ramsay's wedding the Boltons have no more use for him. i think only Ramsay would want Theon as well as his stolen bride and Stannis's entourage at the Wall

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we know that stann 


we know that the letter contains NO truths about Stannis because of the WOW sample chapter, which in the timeline of events takes place after ADWD, we know that Stannis is still alive but trapped by the elements on the frozen laketown in the Wolfswood. So because we know that Stannis is alive, that makes the info in the bastard's letter about him false.

No it doesn't, it takes place within hours of the Asha/Sacrifice chapter. Tycho shows up at the crofter's village at dinner time, presumably three days after the escape, which took place at breakfast. Tycho presents Asha w/ the "gifts" (Theon and Fake Arya). We then pick up at the crofter's village in the early hours of the next morning, Theon notices as day breaks outside of the tower. The Letter is received at CB several chapters later in ADwD.

Here’s some further evidence…

Asha/Sacrifice

It’s storming during the Asha/Sacrifice chapter.

…Asha was not surprised. Suggs would take a special delight in burning her, she did not doubt.

Unless the storms let up.

They had been three days from Winterfell for nineteen days. One hundred leagues from Deepwood Motte to Winterfell. Three hundred miles as the raven flies. But none of them were ravens, and the storm was unrelenting. Each morning Asha awoke hoping she might see the sun, only to face another day of snow. The storm had buried every hut and hovel beneath a mound of dirty snow, and the drifts would soon be deep enough to engulf the longhall too.

And there was no food, beyond their failing horses, fish taken from the lakes (fewer every day), and whatever meagre sustenance their foragers could find in these cold, dead woods. With the king’s knights and lords claiming the lion’s share of the horsemeat, little and less remained for the common men. Small wonder then that they had started eating their own dead….

…Peasebury’s four would pay for their feast with their lives, by the king’s decree ... and by burning end the storm, the queen’s men claimed. Asha Greyjoy put no faith in their red god, yet she prayed they had the right of that. If not, there would be other pyres, and Ser Clayton Suggs might get his heart’s desire….

…They emerged from the storm like a troop of wraiths, big men on small horses, made even bigger by the bulky furs they wore. Swords rode on their hips, singing their soft steel song as they rattled in their scabbards. Asha saw a battle-axe strapped to one man’s saddle, a warhammer on another’s back. Shields they bore as well, but so obscured by snow and ice that the arms upon them could not be read. For all her layers of wool and fur and boiled leather, Asha felt naked standing there. A horn, she thought, I need a horn to rouse the camp.

“Run, you stupid cunt,” Ser Clayton shouted. “Run warn the king. Lord Bolton is upon us.” A brute he might have been, but Suggs did not want for courage. Sword in hand, he strode through the snow, putting himself between the riders and the king’s tower, its beacon glimmering behind him like the orange eye of some strange god. “Who goes there? Halt! Halt!

The lead rider reined up before him. Behind were others, perhaps as many as a score. Asha had no time to count them. Hundreds more might be out there in the storm, coming hard upon their heels. Roose Bolton’s entire host might be descending on them, hidden by darkness and swirling snow. These, though ...

TWoW/Theon

From Theon’s perspective it appears to still be snowing the next morning:

…The door opened with a gust of cold black wind and a swirl of snow. The knight of the moths had returned with the maester the king had sent for, his grey robes concealed beneath a heavy bearskin pelt. Behind them came two other knights, each carrying a raven in a cage. One was the man who'd been with Asha when the banker delivered him to her, a burly man with a winged pig on his surcoat. The other was taller, broad-shouldered and brawny. The big man's breastplate was silvered steel inlaid with niello; though scratched and dinted, it still shone in the candlelight. The cloak that he wore over it was fastened with a burning heart….

… "It will be done," the big knight declared. The maester vanished in another blast of cold and snow. Only the knight of the three moths remained. …

Jon/ADwD (the bastard/pink letter chapter)

However the storm seems to have ended by Jon’s last chapter when he receives the Bastard/Pink Letter:

He has taken a liking to Val. Her sister was a queen, why not her? Tormund had once thought to make himself the King-Beyond-the-Wall, before Mance had bested him. Toregg the Tall might well be dreaming the same dream. Better him than Gerrick Kingsblood. “Let them be,” said Jon. “I can speak with Toregg later.” He glanced up past the King’s Tower. The Wall was a dull white, the sky above it whiter. A snow sky. Just pray we do not get another storm.”

so there is a storm during the Asha and Theon chapters, however the storm has ended by Jon's chapter. therefore we can conclude that the Asha/Sacrifice (ADwD) and the Theon (TWoW) chapters take place before the Jon/Letter chapter (ADwD).





But the info about Mance, i mean, the details and Mance and the spearwives, their decpeption, and the abduction of his bride the fake arya, to me it seems like this is the only bit of truth in the letter. Ramsay smashed the old men and green boys of the last hearth beneath the wall, and now he wants his bride back, and he called Theon "reek", saying "and i want my reek", its gotta be Ramsay, who else is so invested in Theon,? even Theon admits that after Ramsay's wedding the Boltons have no more use for him. i think only Ramsay would want Theon as well as his stolen bride and Stannis's entourage at the Wall


The fact that the part about Mance is the only true part could just as easily be an indication that Mance is the author, e.g. he knows all of the requisite information w/ greater certainty than anyone else. Even under torture there are presumably things Mance would try to conceal, like the fact that he has a son at CB. And why would Ramsay even ask about the baby? How does he know about him? and why has he asked for him? Who’s this Val? How does he know about her? Why does he want her?

When did Ramsay smash the green boys?

As far as we know Mors and the greenboys found Theon and fake Arya under the walls of winterfell, found out about the Frey’s falling into the trap, returned to and hung out at the camp, until Tycho showed up, Mors told him about what had happened and sent him on his way w/ Theon and fake Arya. At no point in ADwD does Ramsay or Manderly emerge from winterfell. and there's been no confirmation that either of them have exited Winterfell in the theon sample chapter.

The fact that Theon is referred to as Reek is common knowledge in Winterfell. The fact that the author has asked for Theon/Reek is less significant than the request relating to Mance insofar Val and the baby have no value to anyone but Mance. Theon’s of value to numerous parties, the North wants him for vengeance, He’s from a Noble family and at the least could be ransomed, Ramsay wants him for his sick perversities, and he has valuable knowledge that could be used against the Boltons. Plus if the letter is written by someone (like Mance or Stannis), to sound like Ramsay it would be necessary to mimic his patterns of speech and behavior. Thus reference to Reek is more easily explained than reference to Val and the baby which really only makes sense if Mance is the author.

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AS to the last spoiler above, I for one, have been suffering under a delusion until very recently ( George got me again !).

Here's Roose after receiving word of Stannis' whereabouts..."Ser Hosteen , assemble your knights and men at arms by the main gates.. As you are so eager for battle, you shall strike our first blow. lord Wyman , gather your White Harbour men by the east gate. They shall go forth as well."

..I always assumed this implied a sort of pincer tactic.Two different gates , forces coming at Stannis from 2 directions ,which might make it easier for Wyman to get a message to Stannis first...

Ah well ( blush ), here's a little pasteroo from the wiki.. East Gate, is part of the main gatehouse, located on the eastern inner walls, it opens onto the King's Gate located in the outer walls and leads to the Kingsroad

...ha,ha !, the East gate leads to the main gate , so of course Wyman's forces are still inside.

Now the order of Roose's forces are likely to be altered.. Might he send Wyman's men out first , in case of further booby traps ? In the delay after the Freys' mishap it may have become clear "Arya", as well as Theon, is missing ..could Ramsay be stopped from going first ?

Re-thinking time...

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@BTOGNTN-In fact the weather that's affecting Winterfell only starts to hit the Wall in Jon's last chapter.

The snow was falling heavily outside."Wind's from the south,it's blowing the snow right up against the Wall.See?"

He was right.The switchback stair was buried almost to the first landing,Jon saw,and the wooden doors of the ice cells had vanished behind a wall of white.

I've been checking this out for another theory I have,but I think it helps with the timelines-Jon's last chapter is quite a bit ahead of the Gift one,timewise,I think.

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@mrlukeduke

Mance isn't glamoured in winterfell. No one describes him as looking like rattleshirt. he's described as appearing like mance. He's also never described as having a large ruby, which would be a noticeable sign of wealth on a traveling singer.

Yes I concur, but he must have the ruby on him somewhere. And if Ramsey has captured him, the torture will spill all. Even any magic words required to enable the ruby glamour.

I don't know; I did not get the impression that Mance was behaving more Rattleshirt-like under the glamor, but I might not have been paying too much attention to that particular issue.

Probably right, it's hard to tell really. All we know is that the glamours are convincing, very convincing. If it's vaguely like warging, could the masquerader take on some characteristics of the person they're glamouring, e.g. tone of voice? Or is it purely a visual illusion?

I believe Mance left as Rattleshirt,he had to really.But that he arrived as Mance,knowing that it was highly unlikely that anyone would recognize him.

But it's possible that he has the ruby and that Mel has taught him the "prayer and the whispered words" to activate a glamour.It's like I'm sending you on a dangerous mission,here's a weapon that might come in useful.

Yeah, surely he still has the ruby? If the ruby comes off, does Mance really die? Is it possible another could use it? Maybe not, but it's just a thought I had re: the strange 'bastard letter'.

Why would Ramsay want to appear as Mance Rayder? Even if the ruby worked that way, Ramsay would surely want the letter to sound like he wrote it?

I was thinking -- just assuming he did use the glamour, I mean -- that it was because he wanted to deceive the northmen and use the power for himself for whatever reasons, perhaps to spy or to evade potential capture by Stannis. My question was regarding whether the ruby turns you into that person in some small way to aid the subterfuge -- perhaps passing on some knowledge -- and could even explain the seeming inconsistencies in the 'bastard letter' (i.e. Ramsey vs Wildling references). But I don't know really, it's kind of wild, I was just putting the suggestion/possibility out there.

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Yes I concur, but he must have the ruby on him somewhere. And if Ramsey has captured him, the torture will spill all. Even any magic words required to enable the ruby glamour.

Probably right, it's hard to tell really. All we know is that the glamours are convincing, very convincing. If it's vaguely like warging, could the masquerader take on some characteristics of the person they're glamouring, e.g. tone of voice? Or is it purely a visual illusion?

The glamour on Stannis' sword is purely visual, people see the air shimmering with heat but do not feel it. I strongly suspect the glamours Mel put on Mance and Rattleshirt were also only as visual illusions - much of her magic deals with light and shadow afterall.

Yeah, surely he still has the ruby? If the ruby comes off, does Mance really die? Is it possible another could use it? Maybe not, but it's just a thought I had re: the strange 'bastard letter'.

I was thinking -- just assuming he did use the glamour, I mean -- that it was because he wanted to deceive the northmen and use the power for himself for whatever reasons, perhaps to spy or to evade potential capture by Stannis. My question was regarding whether the ruby turns you into that person in some small way to aid the subterfuge -- perhaps passing on some knowledge -- and could even explain the seeming inconsistencies in the 'bastard letter' (i.e. Ramsey vs Wildling references). But I don't know really, it's kind of wild, I was just putting the suggestion/possibility out there.

I don't think taking the ruby would be enough to use it for a glamour. Mel did not just set the spells up, she was an active part of maintaining it -she felt the pain as Rattleshirt burned and reckoned she had some measure of control over Mance.

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Glamours are not physical. They don't actually alter anything, but what they do is mess with people's minds so that, in this case they look at Mance and think they're looking at Rattleshirt. That's why Jon was so surprised when he fought Rattleshirt and couldn't understand why he was faster and more powerful, but that was because he was actually fighting Mance.

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Hi,

Just joined today and thought I would throw in a thought:

I might have missed something, and I am re-reading the books before WoW, but are we certain that Mance can even write? I can't remember him writing or reading; he is a wilding; and he was raised at CB to be a ranger not a steward right?

Not convinced he wrote the letter, I feel it's more likely to be Wyman.

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No we don't know if Mance can write but then that doesn't stop him, or any other illiterate character, from dictating a letter to somebody who can. I would be surprised if The Mance was actually the scribe of this letter, but even illiteracy doesn't rule him out of being involved in it's composition.

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