432 replies to this topic

[Knight Of Winter]

A question to all those who believe Ramsay wrote the letter: what do you think - why did he do it? Just out of frustration and anger or did he have some plan in mind (like Mance would have in case he wrote the letter)?

redriver, on 11 May 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

I can't understand why Stannis can't proclaim anyone he wants Warden of the North,Val or not.

Of course he can, but his original intention was to "unite" North and Wildlings with marrying Stark of Winterfell with Wildling princess. Val was obviously crucial to that plan.

[Malpka]

redriver, on 11 May 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

Why would Roose send a letter demanding various people be delivered to him,knowing Jon has no reason to deliver any of them?In fact he has the good news that his "sister" in not in Bolton custody.

And does Val have a son?I can't understand why Stannis can't proclaim anyone he wants Warden of the North,Val or not.

Sorry i meant Mance son.
as for Stannis - sure he can, however we know that he was planning marry Val to lord of the North.

As for your first question - why would Ramsay or anyone else send it then - this question is valid for every sender.

[fassreiter]

What's up with all the pink-letter-threads all of a sudden (again)? As for a theory as to why Ramsay (or Roose) might have sent the letter, I am going to quote (basically) what I posted a week ago in one of them older threads. Again. Sorry.

Quote

I think Ramsay has no idea that not that many days prior to the arrival of the letter at the Wall, an army of wildlings walked through the gates. He is working under two wrong assumptions:

First, he thinks Jon is with NW men only. He has no way of knowing that wildlings passed the gates, nor that they would be willing to fight for him. He doesn't know this because neither Mance nor the spearwives know. They left the Wall even before Val left to look for Tormund.

Second, Ramsay assumes that fake Arya has reached the Wall by now. And he has no illusions that Jon would recognize that this girl is not his sister. So where do people get the idea that Ramsay must be stupid to write the letter?

In fact the pink letter is a perfect plan: Ramsay wants to cow Jon into letting him be and not to try to get Winterfell into his hands after realizing the marriage with Arya was a fake and thus an easy weapon to take Ramsay out without even a fight. The letter is not written with the intention to get Jon (or any army) riled up. It is meant to make him stay out of northern politics. The letter tells him two things: First, Jon is isolated in the North now, because Stannis is dead. Second, he knows a secret that could bring Jon down as Lord Commander. Therefore, if Jon sends him the people he wants (why would Jon care about a Steward's daughter?) and shut the fuck up about any fake marriages, Ramsay won't start a war against Jon, starting by revealing what he knows about Mance Rayder.

Jon, on the other hand, works under completely different assumptions: First, by chance, he does have an army, and he knows that Ramsay does not know. Second, Jon has no idea that Arya is nowhere near Ramsay at all. No one could have anticipated that he would rally an army. He can use to letter to get the wildlings riled up, yes. But that does not mean the letter was meant to be used in this way.

If Ramsay had known that Arya did not reach the Wall, he would not have written the letter. If Arya had reached the Wall before the letter, Jon would not have rallied an army. He would have told the north about the fake marriage and without him ever leaving the Wall, Ramsay would have been destroyed politically.

[redriver]

fassreiter, on 11 May 2012 - 04:02 AM, said:

What's up with all the pink-letter-threads all of a sudden (again)? As for a theory as to why Ramsay (or Roose) might have sent the letter, I am going to quote (basically) what I posted a week ago in one of them older threads. Again. Sorry.

No need to apologize.I think most of the pink letter stuff has cropped up in other threads.So,it's no harm to have a dedicated one.It's such an intriguing and multi-faceted cliffhanger and I don't think we've got to the bottom of it yet.

As to your theory,well,at least you're calling it a theory not cannon.But I don't really get it (could be my fault).

I don't get what the Boltons have to, ostensibly,blackmail Jon with.The Mance deception is more applicable to Stannis himself,he ordered his death,Mel did the rest.In fact,Mel had better hope Stannis is dead because he won't be a happy bunny when he finds out.

There is nothing in the letter that Jon wouldn't hesitate to publicize,which is what he did.

I hope we can all agree that Jon's "assassination" was not an intended consequence of the letter.

[fassreiter]

Nah, it's easy to take Jon down with the Mance deception, at least as a Lord Commander. Jon can deny it all he wants, fact is that Mance Rayder went to Winterfell to 'steal' Jon's sister after a legal marriage in front of many Northmen has happened. They might not have liked it, but Ramsay was, as far as they know, within his rights. As long as no one recognizes Arya is a fake, Jon is the one who has a problem here. No one would believe him if he said he didn't know anything about the Rattleshirt-switch, the rescue mission to Winterfell or Mance being alive. Everyone knows he rode with Mance, he failed to kill him, everyone saw that he took down Rattleshirt with arrows (might seem to some people that maybe he wanted to keep him from talking). People would be happy to call him a turncloak and et him into an ice cell again. So if both of them, Ramsay and Jon, keep their secrets, both may keep their positions.

And I don't believe there is even the slightest possibility that Mance would have thought he could get Jon to forsake his oath and come down with an army to rescue him of all people, so I don't see how what he would have expected by writing the letter. The letter states that Arya is supposed to be with Jon, so she evidently escaped, no need for an army there. And calling Jon bastard wouldn't make him angry enough either. And why should anyone expect Jon to read the letter to anyone, let alone the whole Night's Watch? The letter explicitly accuses Jon of having lied, and explicitly talks about making these lies public "for all the north to see". No one is his right state of mind, and with Jon's 'turncloak' history would have read the letter out lout. That is, if he doesn't have an army. It is a big coincidence that he happens to have aquired an army recently, and that this army has common interests with him.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Roose did not write the letter.

[Malpka]

Sword Of Mid Afternoon, on 11 May 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

Roose did not write the letter.

Can you please share with us, what lead you to such conclusion?

[VaramyrSixchins]

The letter was written by Roose or by Ramay at Roose's instruction. The intent was to cow Jon, who could not only dispute Arya's legitimacy beyond all doubt, but who, as a Stark, could rally the Bolton's tenuously held northmen behind him should he decide to take action.

The letter basically tells Jon (whether true or not) Stannis is dead, you're alone, give me back Arya, the linchpin to my claim. Give me back Theon, who could potentially reveal not only that Bran/Rikkon are still kickin, but also my part in  that deception. Give me other hostages I can strategically use. If you don't, or if you reveal the Arya deception, then I'll reveal YOUR Mance deception.

Mance couldn't have known about the wildling host at the Wall, he left before Tormund brought them through. Mance is captured, folks. I'm as horrified by it as anyone else, but it's the only bit of truth in the whole letter, I'm afraid.

Edited by VaramyrSixchins, 11 May 2012 - 08:23 AM.

[Ice Turtle]

I think that the letter is proof that Mance's cover had been blown but Mance himself escaped or is hiding. Ramsay or Roose would want Val and Mance's son to gain some control.

Also It can be that Roose had a plan to get rid of Ramsay. He send him out but doesn't plan to let him in again. Now Ramsay finds himself in a very bad situation and may try to provoke Jon into leaving the Wall so he can capture him. That would be especially clever if he knew  about's Robb's will. And if he didn't  it may be that he is just really pissed off and want to give Jon some "gentle treatment." To summarize it:

1, The autor of the letter dosn't have Mance
2, The autor of the letter want to lure Jon from the Wall to capture him

[kaukula]

I am sure that someone somewhere already mentioned this, but it just crossed my mind. What if there was no raven, and the letter was actually written and planted by local conspirators to remove Jon as lord commander on the wall?

I don't remember who is in charge of ravens in Castle Black at that point, and is that person Jon's friend or foe?

It would surely serve Bowen Marsh & co. agenda to have Jon do something foolish like ordering Nights watch to march to Winterfell, after he was provoked by the letter. If I remember correctly, Bowen and co. left the hall after Jon proclaimed his plan to go alone (with wildlings) instead. Could it be that at that point they realized they cannot remove him as commander, or make him resign or whatever, so they had to go with plan B - assassination.

Edited by kaukula, 11 May 2012 - 01:59 PM.

[ManyFacedOne]

kaukula, on 11 May 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

I am sure that someone somewhere already mentioned this, but it just crossed my mind. What if there was no raven, and the letter was actually written and planted by local conspirators to remove Jon as lord commander on the wall?

How would they know who Reek is? or the six spearwives he secretly sent? I don't think that's possible.

[Valkyrja]

Ice Turtle, on 11 May 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

I think that the letter is proof that Mance's cover had been blown but Mance himself escaped or is hiding. Ramsay or Roose would want Val and Mance's son to gain some control.

Also It can be that Roose had a plan to get rid of Ramsay. He send him out but doesn't plan to let him in again. Now Ramsay finds himself in a very bad situation and may try to provoke Jon into leaving the Wall so he can capture him. That would be especially clever if he knew  about's Robb's will. And if he didn't  it may be that he is just really pissed off and want to give Jon some "gentle treatment." To summarize it:

1, The autor of the letter dosn't have Mance
2, The autor of the letter want to lure Jon from the Wall to capture him

It is for these reasons that I believe the letter was written by Ramsay (either of his own accord or with the encouragement of Roose). To me it seems that the writer has lied and/or extracted this information from someone(s). I have to highly doubt that Mance is dead (yet) or that Stannis is dead (yet), simply because I feel that Stannis would have had an on-screen death, and that it would be rather ridiculous of GRRM to free Mance and let him loose on Winterfell and the North only to have him die off-screen as well. That is not to stay that perhaps he is indeed captured and being flayed by Ramsay   , but based on what the spear-wife who helped Theon said 'Abel can take care of himself'. I think Mance is hiding in the crypts, or somewhere nearby. If Ramsay is indeed the author of the letter, this does not mean Mance is captured. Sadly, though, it does likely mean that at least one if not all of the spear-wives were captured and flayed (Jon thinks 'there is truth in this'), and perhaps all six of them have been killed. They may have sacrificed themselves to give time for both Theon and Jeyne and Mance to get away, but were then tortured long enough to extract the information out of them.

[Malpka]

Just now another possibility occured to me - what if Alliser Thorne went to Winterfell and wrote it with Bolton, Bastard seems to fit his  style.

[Payme]

Censored Wolf, on 10 May 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

   but he doesn't want the RED WHORE.  Just "tell his red whore."

Actually i think "he" does demand Mel in the letter:

I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch.

To the point of the letter, and if it's actually Ramsey who wrote it, I'll just go with Ramsay (i like spelling Ramsee different ways)... The mention of "Reek" just seems like overkill for a Mance-written letter... BUT, i'm not 100% sold, and my opinion will probably change the more i think on it...

[houseHB]

I think that Mance wrote the letter. Maybe one of his spearwives was captured and was tortured so she told Ramsay about Mance being Abel. Remember, Mance did interact with Theon, so maybe Theon told Mance that Ramsay calls him reek, and during the Theon chapters, Theon keeps on wondering if Ramsay knows whether Arya is fake, why would Ramsay be concerned about a fake Arya, When Theon and Jeyne leave Winterfell, Mance thinks that Jeyne is Arya. Maybe Mance is writing to Jon so Jon will bring reinforcements to help Mance out and he uses the one word that gets to Jon, Bastard.

[kwvapor]

Payme, on 11 May 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

Actually i think "he" does demand Mel in the letter:

I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch.

To the point of the letter, and if it's actually Ramsey who wrote it, I'll just go with Ramsay (i like spelling Ramsee different ways)... The mention of "Reek" just seems like overkill for a Mance-written letter... BUT, i'm not 100% sold, and my opinion will probably change the more i think on it...

lol--your right.  I missed that.  I think I was only looking for whore, when my mind saw witch--it didn't register.

If it's Ramsee who wrote it then there are certainly lies because if Stannis is dead, he doesn't need the Queen.  She becomes useless.

Mance and the spearwives knows "Reek."  They had interaction with him.

Edited by Censored Wolf, 11 May 2012 - 11:42 PM.

[kwvapor]

Maybe we should do a breakdown line by line.  LOL


Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore. Your false king’s friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied,

What did he lie about?

and so did you. You told the world you burned the King- Beyond-the-Wall.

I'm responding for Jon here: No I didn't.

Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.  I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies.

again with the lies, i get it you want people to know I lied

The cage is cold, but I have made him awarm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell. I want my bride back. I want the false king’s queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want his wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows.

is this a term used normally outside the NW and beyond the wall?

Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard’s heart and eat it.
It was signed,
Ramsay Bolton, Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

[Payme]

@Censored Wolf

I gotcha... I just feel it'd be overkill for Mance to mention Reek in a staged letter, with Jon having no clue who Reek is (or maybe i missed a part where Jon learns of Ramsay/ey/ee having a Reek)...

Then again, maybe the addition of the "Reek" demand in the letter goes along with Jon's perception of the Once Bastard of Bolton's mental state?

Like i said, i'm not 100% sold it's Ramseagul who wrote the letter, but it seems like the best bet for me...the inclusion of "Reek" being the kicker... Or maybe Mance "forced" RamsC to write the letter himself at gun, errr sword/knife-point?

[kwvapor]

Payme, on 12 May 2012 - 12:05 AM, said:

@Censored Wolf

I gotcha... I just feel it'd be overkill for Mance to mention Reek in a staged letter, with Jon having no clue who Reek is (or maybe i missed a part where Jon learns of Ramsay/ey/ee having a Reek)...

Then again, maybe the addition of the "Reek" demand in the letter goes along with Jon's perception of the Once Bastard of Bolton's mental state?

Like i said, i'm not 100% sold it's Ramseagul who wrote the letter, but it seems like the best bet for me...the inclusion of "Reek" being the kicker... Or maybe Mance "forced" RamsC to write the letter himself at gun, errr sword/knife-point?

I gotcha, your saying if the writer is Mance, he wouldn't use Reek because Reek/person unknown to Jon.  I didn't look at this fact.  hmmmm

I was just looking at the use of Reek as the author's trap to make me think it's Ramsei.

Edited by Censored Wolf, 12 May 2012 - 12:15 AM.

[cuendillar]

Censored Wolf, on 12 May 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

I was just looking at the use of Reek as the author's trap to make me think it's Ramsei.

What with all the portmanteaus for potential romantic pairings, for a terrifying moment I thought you were shipping Cersei and Ramsay...