432 replies to this topic

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

I believe he said that there would be no new PoV's of people we don't already know. TWoW could open w/ a prologue from a Maester perspective in Winterfell.  This would follow the pattern of introducing one use PoVs for the Prologue and Epilogue, it would offer a need set of eyes inside of Winterfell. And there are 2 in Winterfell at the end of ADwD. Maester Rhodry who delivered the Map to Roose (p. 676-76 ADwD hard copy), and Maester Medrick who was last seen laboring over Lord Wyman (p.677 ADwD hardcopy). My hope would be Medrick obviously. However the fact that the last prologue took place in the North and that your last sentence is wonderfully true i'm skeptical that any of this will pan out.

[VaramyrSixchins]

NotSoSilentSister, on 11 December 2012 - 05:59 PM, said:

That's the main thing for me. I will admit that the hope that Jon would continue the prescribed appeasement policy and deliver NotArya and Reek is not completly absurd, judging from Jon's past behavior. But if this is really the priority - preventing Jon from exposing NotArya as NotArya - why add all those other demands that make it just so much less likely that Jon will be able to comply even if he wanted to?

But if the info came from Mance, at the time he left, the free folk had all been released from the stockade and appropriated to different uses, and scattered. The Queen and her entourage had yet to arrive when Mance left for Long Lake. When Mance left, Stannis's only forces at the Wall were Mel and the men Stannis left to serve her, all of whom she derides in one way or another in her POV.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Well, the last prologue took place north of the Wall, and Winterfell is south of the Wall, so it might well work out.

Still, I can't imagine that Ramsay and Roose will be dispatched so easily (for narrative reasons, not because those two are so invincible). I can see your point that their might be some revolt coming their way - I think it will be a Oberyn/Gregor-situation, where it looks like our guys are winning for a hot minute, only to be defeated in the last  moment. I foresee some heroic deaths for Manderley and Lady Dustin....

Ramsay and Roose are going to take a serious hit (I agree that we need some explanation why they couldn't hunt down Theon and Jeyne), but they are not going to go down quite yet.

[NotSoSilentSister]

VaramyrSixchins, on 12 December 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

But if the info came from Mance, at the time he left, the free folk had all been released from the stockade and appropriated to different uses, and scattered. The Queen and her entourage had yet to arrive when Mance left for Long Lake. When Mance left, Stannis's only forces at the Wall were Mel and the men Stannis left to serve her, all of whom she derides in one way or another in her POV.

Still, Mance knows that the Queen has an entourage and that this entourage might not deliver her so easily. Then again, I'm indeed fuzzy on the numbers, so maybe this point is moot.

[redriver]

I wonder if a Winterfell epilogue would be fitting given that Theon's gift chapter would come later.I suppose it could be done...

As far as a POV is concerned,Mance would be the logical choice.And of course,you don't necessariy get to survive your own POV.

Edited by redriver, 12 December 2012 - 11:07 PM.

[bemused]

By the Old Gods Not the New.. There are three maesters in Winterfell ( ADWD hard cover ,p. 497 )

" - one tall , one plump , one very young" ...." Before the war, Medrick had served Lord Hornwood , Rhodry Lord Cerwyn , and young Henly Lord Slate "

There's so much bitterness and hatred over Lady Hornwood's fate,( and in spite of what Lady Barbrey says , we know there are some loyal and dutiful maesters , since we've met Luwin) , you have to suspect Medrick's sympathies may be very much against the Boltons... then again , there are lots of "R" names among the Ryswells, so you have to wonder about Rhodry's original house ... I don't know what to think about young Henly..no immediate suspicion springs to mind. Anyone recall mention of a particular house with a second or third son who was sent to the citadel ?

[redriver]

Two candidates for that;

Eamon from House Targeryen.

Whoresbane Umber.

And maybe Prince Oberyn Martell,though I don't think he was sent.

Only one of them in Winterfell though....

[bemused]

Sorry , I meant a house with a second or third son ( or cousin or bastard ) who could be young Henly..

The 3 maesters entering the hall prompt Lady Barbrey's  negative comments about Maesters...that they have an agenda from the citadel or maybe secretly act in their houses' interests . She goes on to say the Stark/Tully marriage was Maester Walys' idea and from things she says about him, and other things that are said in the Pate prologue of AFFC , it seems pretty certain old Maester Walgrave was Walys' father ..Depending on who young Henly is , all 3 maesters could be in cahoots against the Boltons .. among themselves , or with a larger group of the Northerners.

I can't think of any likely origins ..

For example ..Lord Blackwood had 6 sons . The youngest , Robert , died of a looseness of the bowels ..second son Lucas was killed at the RW ..Brynden is the oldest ..and Hoster leaves as Jaime's hostage.

That leaves 2 unaccounted for ( Why mention 6 then ?), but there's no commonality to the names , other than that Lord Tytos wanted to curry favour with as many powerful lords as possible
No preponderance of H names , or anything like that.

So..any other houses come to mind ?

Edited by bemused, 13 December 2012 - 01:55 AM.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

good call bemused...my bad i was thinking that the maester w/ Karstark had left w/ him from winterfell...oops. add another to the list of possible maester PoVs in winterfell.

[NotSoSilentSister]

redriver, on 12 December 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

As far as a POV is concerned,Mance would be the logical choice.

Not so much; the pattern so far has been "Someone north of the Wall/Maester south of the Walll".

I'm pretty sure Mance is still alive; otherwise the whole subplot about Jon swapping his baby for Gilly's would probably be rather pointless.

[redriver]

NotSoSilentSister, on 13 December 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:

Not so much; the pattern so far has been "Someone north of the Wall/Maester south of the Walll".

I'm pretty sure Mance is still alive; otherwise the whole subplot about Jon swapping his baby for Gilly's would probably be rather pointless.

I'm pretty sure of it too.I was referring to a Mance POV in it's own right rather than an epilogue,and after the Theon chapter.

Personally,I think it is time for the Boltons to exit stage left.They have fulfilled their roles in the narrative,imo.

Time to clear the decks for the invasion of the Others.And I'm sure King Euron will be happy to take on the role of Mr Nasty going forward.

[NotSoSilentSister]

redriver, on 13 December 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure of it too.I was referring to a Mance POV in it's own right rather than an epilogue,and after the Theon chapter..

well, there's the alleged "no new POVs for Winds of Winter" restriction (except for prologues and epilogues), although I admit that I've never seen the original quotation. (would be very grateful for anyone providing a link, by the way). And there's of course no certainty that Martin would stick to it. But so far it doesn't seem to be part of the original outline.

I agree that there's is no shortage of villains and I can see the writerly appeal of thinning out the cast dramatically to shift the focus to new conflicts.

The Boltons are still my favourite candidates for engaging in some creepy stuff with the Others however, so they might yet have their use for the plot. There seem to be hints towards a potential supernatural elements of the Bolton storyline - could be nothing, could be something, but I'd like to see a payoff to that.

[MtnLion]

NotSoSilentSister, on 13 December 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

well, there's the alleged "no new POVs for Winds of Winter" restriction (except for prologues and epilogues),

I am not going to find what you want, today, though I have seen it personally.  There is this one, though:  http://www.westeros....SM/Category/C92

Quote

GRRM: No, not several, at least not intentionally. I had more choice early in the series, I frequently had situations where 2 or 3 were present at the same time. But as it’s progressed they have dispersed, so I need to be in the viewpoint of whoever’s there. There are some cases when I have a choice and in that case, I weigh which one. Without talking exactly about "The Mereenese Knot" – I’m not going to talk exactly about it, but but [there was a time when] a number of viewpoints were coming together in Mereen for a number of events, and I was wrestling with order and viewpoint. The different points-of-view had different sources of knowledge and I never could quite solve it. I was rewriting the same chapter over and over again – this, that, viewpoint? – spinning my wheels. It was one of the more troublesome thickets I encountered. There’s a resolution not to introduce new viewpoint characters, but the way I finally dealt with things was with Barristan, I introduced him as a viewpoint character as though he’d been there all along. That enabled me to clear away some of the brush.

Rule broken in DwD.

[NotSoSilentSister]

MtnLion, on 13 December 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

I am not going to find what you want, today, though I have seen it personally.  There is this one, though:  http://www.westeros....SM/Category/C92
Rule broken in DwD.

Thanks! I suspected as much - a rough guideline rather than a hard and fast rule. (Although unless Martin starts sighing about a Winterfellian knot in the next interviews, I would still rate the likelihood of a Mance POV at the lower end of the spectrum.)

[MtnLion]

NotSoSilentSister, on 13 December 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

Thanks! I suspected as much - a rough guideline rather than a hard and fast rule. (Although unless Martin starts sighing about a Winterfellian knot in the next interviews, I would still rate the likelihood of a Mance POV at the lower end of the spectrum.)

I don't expect GRRM to introduce more POV characters, outside of Prologue and Epilogue in any remaining books, because he did say that he had reached his limit, and really needed to kill a few off.  I just could not find that quote.

[Lion of Judah]

The Bastards letter was written by Wyman Manderly.

[Zupoleon]

MtnLion, on 13 December 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

I don't expect GRRM to introduce more POV characters, outside of Prologue and Epilogue in any remaining books, because he did say that he had reached his limit, and really needed to kill a few off.  I just could not find that quote.

I keep hearing differing opinions / interpretations on the matter.  Either there are no more new POV's period, or there will not be any new POV's from characters we have not been introduced to yet.  Meaning Mance and other characters we already know could potentially get a POV.

[wolfmaid7]

Apple Martini, on 10 May 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

I think it's probably at least partially true, namely where the spearwives are concerned (I think they're actually dead as the letter implies). But some people think that Mance is actually the one writing the letter, hoping to lure Jon into sending Val and his "son" away. This is sort of backed up by the oddity of Ramsay asking for Val and the baby in addition to Selyse and Shirren — why would he care about them? Mance could also use Stannis' wife and daughter as hostages of his own, but to Ramsay, Val and the baby hold no value at all.

Note that in the letter, Ramsay refers to the Night's Watch as "crows," which is a decidedly "wildling" name for them. They don't really refer to themselves that way, nor does anyone else in Westeros south of the Wall, to my knowledge. I'm also not sure what to make of the line, "You told the world you killed the King-Beyond-the-Wall." It makes it sound like Jon himself trumpeted "Mance's" execution, which I don't think he did.

So yeah, a healthy number of people think that Mance has actually "captured" Ramsay, not the other way around, and it's Mance's voice in the letter, and that the stuff about Stannis already losing is false.

Another idea, one I like in particular, is that something has happened to Roose (i.e. he's been killed or captured, leaving Ramsay in charge), but that Ramsay has actually written the letter and Mance is actually a prisoner. This idea hinges on Stannis somehow faking his own death. I believe that Bolton sent out the Freys and the Manderlys, and that the Manderlys turned on the Freys and joined forces with Stannis. Stannis gave one of the Manderly commanders his sword to take back to the Boltons as "proof" that he was dead. So the thing about the severed heads on the wall isn't true, it's just Ramsay embellishing, but he does believe Stannis is dead. Lulled into that complacency, he's bold enough to write the letter to Jon, while in the end, Stannis' forces, combined with the Manderlys, will finally flush the Boltons out of Winterfell.

Spoiler

In the WoW Theon chapter, Stannis tells Massey that Massey might hear of Stannis' death and that "may even be true." This suggests to a lot of people that Stannis is actively planning on faking his death.

I doubt its Mance writing,if we are to believe Mel then Mance can't lie to her and he's bound to her by that bracelet.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

mance is no longer glamored.

[bemused]

Zupoleon, on 13 December 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

I keep hearing differing opinions / interpretations on the matter.  Either there are no more new POV's period, or there will not be any new POV's from characters we have not been introduced to yet.  Meaning Mance and other characters we already know could potentially get a POV.

That was the understanding I took away from the interview I heard / listened to..( I'm pretty sure it wasn't print) , but I don't really remember where it was . I do remember him joking about needing to start to kill characters off ( but he's said that a number of times ). I remember the question " Will there be any new POV's " ,to which I remember George replying, "No..(slight pause )..no POV's from characters we haven't already met." ( or words to that effect)

It was that qualifier that struck me , and I recall thinking at the time ,he was just as tricksy in person as on paper. it can be taken either way. It all depends on what we understand "met" to mean.

I'd love to check it out , but I'm pressed for time , and hardly know where to start looking. I thought it came soon after the release of ADWD , say within the first month, or so ..but that's still a lot of interviews to check out.

And memory is never infallible.