90 replies to this topic

[Batman]

In the words of Ned Stark, does he have a shred of honor? He knew he was not the rightful heir and rebelled anyway. He seemed loyal enough to Robert, in fact he seemed to idolize the man the same way Edric does.

Was he stupid enough to believe he would be a better king?
Was he driven by personal gain?
Was it Stannis' personality that made him not want to follow? If he had been more like Robert would Renly have followed then?
Was he just a greedy, egotistical little boy who did not know his place?

[Pellaeon]

Batman, on 13 May 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

Was he stupid enough to believe he would be a better king? - Yes
Was he driven by personal gain? - Yes
Was it Stannis' personality that made him not want to follow? If he had been more like Robert would Renly have followed then? - maybe
Was he just a greedy, egotistical little boy who did not know his place? - Yes

He might also drive by the Tyrells

[Lady Hodor]

Renly was vain and arrogant and green as summer grass, as is the Westeros saying, he thought he was better than everyone else.
So yes, the last option, a greedy boy with a big head and a bigger ego. Plus he believed charm could win wars.

Edited by Lady Hodor, 13 May 2012 - 04:50 AM.

[danm_999]

He was a fool, since he didn't think of the precedent he was setting for his descendents.

Think you'd make a more popular king than the lawful one? Why not raise an army then!

[Green Dreamer]

In the TV series he seemed to be driven by Loras/Lady Macbeth

[Toccs]

We know that he was already plotting with the Tyrells to make Maegarey into Robert's queen.  I always just assumed that the Tyrells had been the voice in his ear telling him that he should be king.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Renly and the Tyrells were still unaware of the twincest when he first rebelled. I think that the Tyrells were using the fact that Robb Stark had already rebelled to continue their plan of removing the Lannister influence from King's Landing.
I think that Renly was so like Robert that he too was blind to the fact that he was being manipulated by people around him for their own reasons.

Edited by Toccs, 13 May 2012 - 05:09 AM.

[Hear Us Roar]

Better king? of course he would be a better king than Stannis or any of the other contenders. He knows people and how to deal with them, he also will take action when it is necessary. Ie jumping the lannisters immediately rather than wait. He wanted to be king and he had an army just like the other 5 Kings. Lastly he did not rebel. Robert took the iron throne by force from the royals who had all the rights, and they had come through fire and blood. There is no "rightful" king or queen. The strongest,smartest, or sometimes luckiest will take that seat.

Edited by Hear Us Roar, 13 May 2012 - 05:15 AM.

[Hear Us Roar]

Lady Hodor, on 13 May 2012 - 04:49 AM, said:

Renly was vain and arrogant and green as summer grass, as is the Westeros saying, he thought he was better than everyone else.
So yes, the last option, a greedy boy with a big head and a bigger ego. Plus he believed charm could win wars.

Not really, he was willing to seize the Lannisters immediately and take the throne then and there with ned's help. He knows what it takes and is willing to do that. If not for the magic shadow demon he would be dominating right now.

[Lummel]

Batman, on 13 May 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

In the words of Ned Stark, does he have a shred of honor? He knew he was not the rightful heir and rebelled anyway. He seemed loyal enough to Robert, in fact he seemed to idolize the man the same way Edric does.

Was he stupid enough to believe he would be a better king?
Was he driven by personal gain?
Was it Stannis' personality that made him not want to follow? If he had been more like Robert would Renly have followed then?
Was he just a greedy, egotistical little boy who did not know his place?

It was a cynical move but because he had the support of the Tyrells he had a better chance of becoming King than Stannis.  Stannis also had the reputation of not forgetting a grudge and being unbending, anybody who had ever been on the wrong side of him would have had reason to fear him becoming king.

Renly may have been a better king in some ways, he had a taste for the glitz and glamour and pageantry, he would have won a lot of affection from the lower nobility and knights.  You can imagine that his court would have been quite fantastical and spectacular (though no doubt debt ridden).

But yes in terms of setting a precedent a disastrous move.

Edited by Lummel, 13 May 2012 - 05:17 AM.

[danm_999]

Hear Us Roar, on 13 May 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

Not really, he was willing to seize the Lannisters immediately and take the throne then and there with ned's help. He knows what it takes and is willing to do that. If not for the magic shadow demon he would be dominating right now.

So, essentially, if not his for enemies he'd be dominating Westeros?

Yes, you're probably right about that one.

[RhaenysBalerion]

Because he thought he'd make a better king than Stannis and being in the center as king compensated him for all the whispers behind his back about him and Loras.

[danm_999]

Hear Us Roar, on 13 May 2012 - 05:09 AM, said:

Robert took the iron throne by force from the royals who had all the rights, and they had come through fire and blood. There is no "rightful" king or queen. The strongest,smartest, or sometimes luckiest will take that seat.

Renly tried this shocking piece of logic in CoK. If Robert took the Throne by force, why shouldn't I?

Renly ignored that Robert took the throne because of a popular uprising against Targaryen misrule. Renly just decided he deserved to be next in line, based on his own megalomania.

[Hear Us Roar]

danm_999, on 13 May 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:

So, essentially, if not his for enemies he'd be dominating Westeros?

Yes, you're probably right about that one.

Without the magic, yes he would. He had the reach and the Stormlands. If it was not for Ned's short-sightedness he would have had 4 lannister hostages and Kings landing as well. Once the North and riverlands would call their banners Tywin Lannister would be alone and it would be over.  Renly is King and there would be peace. He was a stabilizing force that is why he was axed.

[Toccs]

Hear Us Roar, on 13 May 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

Not really, he was willing to seize the Lannisters immediately and take the throne then and there with ned's help. He knows what it takes and is willing to do that. If not for the magic shadow demon he would be dominating right now.

I don't think he was willing to take the throne himself when he offered Ned his help.  As I recall his plan was to seize Jofferey, I always assumed that he saw the opportunity to wed Maegarey to the King without the hassle of having to remove an existing wife/queen.

[Hear Us Roar]

danm_999, on 13 May 2012 - 05:23 AM, said:

Renly tried this shocking piece of logic in CoK. If Robert took the Throne by force, why shouldn't I?

Renly ignored that Robert took the throne because of a popular uprising against Targaryen misrule. Renly just decided he deserved to be next in line, based on his own megalomania.

The Lannisters are the Targaryens in this rebellion and Ned, Jon Arryan and Robert deaths= Brandon, Rickon Stark, and Arryn's son who was killed also.. For all intents and purposes Joffrey has taken the role of the mad king and history is repeating itself. So why wouldn't Renly think to seize the moment like Robert? The pieces were all there

Edited by Hear Us Roar, 13 May 2012 - 05:35 AM.

[David Selig]

danm_999, on 13 May 2012 - 05:23 AM, said:

Renly tried this shocking piece of logic in CoK. If Robert took the Throne by force, why shouldn't I?

Renly ignored that Robert took the throne because of a popular uprising against Targaryen misrule. Renly just decided he deserved to be next in line, based on his own megalomania.

What popular uprising? Few of the most powerful lords were unhappy and rebelled. The smallfolk didn't give a damn. Not much different from what Renly and the Tyrells did.

[danm_999]

Hear Us Roar, on 13 May 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

Without the magic, yes he would.

Right, but he lives in a world full of magic.

So once he made an enemy of Stannis, Stannis was always going to have Melisandre kill him. You're essentially saying that Renly would have succeeded if his opponents dissapeared.

One could as well say, without Jeyne Westerling, Robb would have won, or without the Faceless Men, Balon would have won.

Hear Us Roar, on 13 May 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

He had the reach and the Stormlands. If it was not for Ned's short-sightedness he would have had 4 lannister hostages and Kings landing as well.

Not with Littlefinger around he wasn't.

Hear Us Roar, on 13 May 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

Once the North and riverlands would call their banners Tywin Lannister would be alone and it would be over.  Renly is King and there would be peace. He was a stabilizing force that is why he was axed.

He didn't propose to Ned to make himself King. He proposed to seize Joffrey. If he did that, the realm was going to turn on HIM.

[just an Other]

Because he wanted power? It tends to be a common incentive.

[Lummel]

danm_999, on 13 May 2012 - 05:23 AM, said:

...Renly ignored that Robert took the throne because of a popular uprising against Targaryen misrule. Renly just decided he deserved to be next in line, based on his own megalomania.

From memory Aerys II demanded that Jon Arryn hand over Bob Baratheon and The Ned following on from Brandon Stark calling for Rhaegar to come out and die, Arryn refused.  The Arryn, Baratheon and Stark lords cal out their banners and cash in on their Tully marriage alliances.

There was no popular rebellion against misrule - it was a punch up among the ruling class over who got to sleep with Lyanna Stark.

[danm_999]

Hear Us Roar, on 13 May 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

The Lannisters are the Targaryens in this rebellion and Ned, Jon Arryan and Robert deaths= Brandon, Rickon Stark, and Arryn's son who was killed also.. For all intents and purposes Joffrey has taken the role of the mad king and history is repeating itself. So why wouldn't Renly think to seize the moment like Robert? The pieces were all there

No, it's completely different to Robert's Rebellion.

The Baratheons, his own family, are in power! Even if he knew Joffrey was a bastard, Stannis is next in line!

Nor did he have a basis to say Joffrey was the next Aerys yet. At this point, Joffrey hadn't begun ruling, and he wouldn't for several years, the small council and Hand would rule, and he was on the bloody small council! How can you claim he's a Robert if he's a part of the administration he's overthrowing?