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[Book Spoilers] Jaime killing Cleos/Alton


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129 replies to this topic

#1 Katydid

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:31 PM

I'm trying, really I am. I'm trying hard to reconcile the liberties they're taking in this series, and go with the flow with the changes/additions/subtractions. For the most part, I've done alright (save for anytime we see Ros on screen.)

But Jaime is now a kinslayer. Pointlessly, needlessly, it added nothing to the story that I can see. Cleos was a goner anyway. So what was wrong with the way GRRM wrote his death?

Fail.

#2 Anvilbreaker

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:02 PM

taking far to many liberties this season, and they are not capturing the grey areas of most of the characters

#3 Stannis Iron Baratheon

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:27 AM

I think they are doing this to enhance his redemption in the later seasons. They need to enphisize the peoples trates like changing joffery from being an cruel idiot to being a monster and then also making more unlikable.

#4 dtones520

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:34 AM

I think they are doing this to enhance his redemption in the later seasons. They need to enphisize the peoples trates like changing joffery from being an cruel idiot to being a monster and then also making more unlikable.


Exactly. We have thousands of pages to build up these characters personalities over. The show creators have 10 hours for like 15-25 characters. They have to overdo some traits to get the point across to people who don't read the book.

#5 Winterfell is Burning

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:36 AM

He's not Cletos, he's a distant cousin.

#6 Prince of Dragonstone

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:39 AM

1) It gave Jaime something dramatic to do and reintroduces him to the the viewers in a fantastic way. The audience hasn't seen him in many episodes.

2) The scene was well written and acted. Both actors were great and I didn't see it coming until Alton kept creeping closer to Jaime.

3) It only serves to enhance Jaime's upcoming redemption arc in Seasons 3 and 4.

4) It adds more sense of immediacy to the Karstark subplot. Now the audience understands who Rickard Karstark is and why he is so adamant on having Jaime dead.

#7 Eddard Sand

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:46 AM

I for one really enjoyed the discontent that was portrayed amongst the northmen. You really get the feeling that something could go down at any minute. The pressure on Cat to do something drastic to protect Jaime and thus her daughters is palpable making her decision to Free Jaimie believable. Once again another example of how visual media can flesh out some of the less believable parts of the book. Her decision enraged me in the books but is more acceptable this way.

#8 Castel

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:11 AM

taking far to many liberties this season, and they are not capturing the grey areas of most of the characters


Honestly this, far too many grey areas are being written out, Cat letting go of the kingslayer with direct word from Tyrion (although that's a subtle one), Ygritte escaping instead of Jon just being an idiot, and now this. I don't even see the point of this, what did Jaime achieve I mean, it seemed to be done purely to make him more evil.

And honestly, I'm not sure I buy a redemption arc. They should be making the Lannisters more likeable, to make sure they don't take a massive hit after...certain events, instead Cersei is neutered and Jaime kills someone for the heck of it. You can only push the audience so far, once they hate these people too much to want to watch them trying to switch it about will seem like a bait and switch. Especially since of all the evil shit the Lannisters have done, this was just silly and purely to make the character seem evil/dangerous. I go with evil because a better way of showing him being dangerous would be to show him kicking ass while still chained.

That said, the scene was wonderfully acted. I love the mention of different branches of the Lannister family, and how The family was held in such esteem, Alton was painfully earnest, and so was Jaime, I loved it.

Edited by Castel, 15 May 2012 - 01:19 AM.


#9 Terminated

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 03:43 AM

Seconds before killing his cousin, my wife (book reader too) told me: they are making him look nice too early, he should still be an asshole until his hand gets cut. The murder cleared that doubt quickly. Good,

#10 Jayaris

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 04:16 AM

Honestly this, far too many grey areas are being written out, Cat letting go of the kingslayer with direct word from Tyrion (although that's a subtle one), Ygritte escaping instead of Jon just being an idiot, and now this. I don't even see the point of this, what did Jaime achieve I mean, it seemed to be done purely to make him more evil.


It was the most effective, no strings attached escape strategy - Leaving him alive has other complications/decisions to be made that he obviously didn't want to risk.

I didn't understood why he paused after saying he would kill him though, was waiting for him to say he was just kidding.

#11 WinterWarrior

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 07:58 AM

I didn't like this scene at all because Alton (who I believe is supposed to be Cleos Frey) is such a likeable young man. I always envisioned Cleos Frey as an old stuffy thing because that is the way Roy Dotrice reads him in the audiobooks. So after than when I read the books that is still how I saw him. Alton is young and honest. I had a hard time watching this scene when I watched the espisode a second time and switched channels until I knew it was over.

But I get that they have to establish Jamie early on as an a**hole and then show his transformation. The question is who will take his hand?

#12 CrypticWeirwood

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 08:33 AM

Upcoming third-season scene with Vargo Hoat:

“Y U kill Jon-Boy Alton, Kingthlayer??? U 2 manly 4 me, tho I fink I kyure U 4 good: time 4 U get thpethal mannikyure!”



#13 Brienne the Beauty

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 08:41 AM

It was pretty awesome. It'll also make viewers doubt his redemption since it is clear he can turn on the charm any time he likes, and we can't see into his head like in the books.

#14 never trust a bard

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:52 AM

I'm on the fence. I just don't see how they can make viewers enjoy his story like the readers have learned to. Jaime will never say outloud the things we got to read in his head. This act was just so cruel too it just makes him seem like a physociopath. I guess I didn't like it. I loved that the people in the room with him always got "piece of shit" Jaime, but the readers got the more complex story. I guess that's tough to do on screen in the shorter timeline.

#15 Mulled Wino

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:34 AM

I loved it, personally, I don't care that much for his redemption being part of the TV Series. Why pick Jamie out of all the different characters to show ooogles of self contemplation and backstory for when there is so much going on and so little time?

I prefer him as a cold-blooded, ruthless guy who people fear. There's plenty enough EMO going on on the TV Series with the way they are portraying Cersei and Jon Snow so far.

#16 SerMixalot

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:35 AM

Killing Cleo (sic) is a Tony Soprano like moment of sociopathic tendancies, Irredeemable, though HBO will try. We will have to foget that JL is a kinslayer without conscience. We will be asked to believe it and many will.

such is life

#17 way2gimpy

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:47 AM

So he is Alton Lannister, a distant cousin - but Jaime kept talking about Alton's mother as a Lannister so he wouldn't be Lannister unless Alton's father was one too... so that would make him a double Lannister cousin?

I don't think there has been any mention of kinslaying being any more egregious than a normal "killing," as of yet but they could still bring it up. I know the conversation between Renly and Stannis was there but there was no specific mention about kinslaying.

#18 Brienne the Beauty

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:14 PM

Killing Cleo (sic) is a Tony Soprano like moment of sociopathic tendancies, Irredeemable, though HBO will try. We will have to foget that JL is a kinslayer without conscience. We will be asked to believe it and many will.


Jaime was already irredeemable after what he did to Bran. That's why his redemption is interesting.

#19 Mulled Wino

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:41 PM

Jaime was already irredeemable after what he did to Bran. That's why his redemption is interesting.


it seems to be common opinion that killing children is understandable if its done to protect one's sex life

#20 never trust a bard

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:51 PM

I loved it, personally, I don't care that much for his redemption being part of the TV Series. Why pick Jamie out of all the different characters to show ooogles of self contemplation and backstory for when there is so much going on and so little time?

I prefer him as a cold-blooded, ruthless guy who people fear. There's plenty enough EMO going on on the TV Series with the way they are portraying Cersei and Jon Snow so far.

Awesome point.

it seems to be common opinion that killing children is understandable if its done to protect one's sex life

hahahahahaha!!!