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[Book Spoilers] Jaime killing Cleos/Alton


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#21 Jolene Brown

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:54 PM

I think people feel that he was trying to protect his own children's lives - that if people found out about the incest, they would have been executed. Whether that's true or not is another question.

#22 Pliskin

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:58 PM

it seems to be common opinion that killing children is understandable if its done to protect one's sex life

I guess it's sarcasm ?
Because protecting two innocent children's heads, one not so innocent's head too, your love of your life's head, and yours too (if not trying to prevent a war that could have bled all the Westerlands if not the whole Westeros)... isn't exactly just about sex life.

#23 Mulled Wino

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:02 PM

I think people feel that he was trying to protect his own children's lives - that if people found out about the incest, they would have been executed. Whether that's true or not is another question.


then they would be feeling wrong. he couldn't care less about his children, in the books at least.

#24 Mulled Wino

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:07 PM

I guess it's sarcasm ?
Because protecting two innocent children's heads, one not so innocent's head too, your love of your life's head, and yours too (if not trying to prevent a war that could have bled all the Westerlands if not the whole Westeros)... isn't exactly just about sex life.


not sarcasm at all actually.

where do you get protecting his kids? where do you get trying to prevent a war? was he trying to prevent a war when he killed ned's guards in kings landing?

lol, he's protecting the twin sister that he's fucking's head. that's it. that's the only argument for it, and its a lot more amoral than killing another prisoner to escape captivity.

#25 Ser Piggy Of The Baby Back Rib

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:12 PM

As I mentioned in another post on the Episode review, I would have prefered that they save those 4 minutes and use it to have Jamie provide the backstory of how he became the Kingslayer and how Lord Rickard and Brandon Stark died. That whole scene in the books he's being a total dick to Catelyn. With them rushing to get so much in, I would have loved for people who haven't read the books get some more valuable history. It helps people understand better what's going on and why.

#26 Menos Grande

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:12 PM

I think it was a improvement... the parts that don't add up for me are Bran's , Dany's, Jon's stories...
By the changes they made, Bran will have to go to the wall alone if Hodor... Dany is just too messed up, but I hope they fix it by the end... and Jon.. whithout Halfhands orders he will be an Oathbreaker.

#27 Pliskin

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:13 PM

not sarcasm at all actually.

where do you get protecting his kids? where do you get trying to prevent a war? was he trying to prevent a war when he killed ned's guards in kings landing?

He loved his brother.
"The things I do for love".

lol, he's protecting the twin sister that he's fucking's head. that's it. that's the only argument for it, and its a lot more amoral than killing another prisoner to escape captivity.

No, he didn't kill him to escape captivity. Killing him didn't help escape at all.
That's why we complain that much about this scene. It's just a psychopath's kill, for no reason.

You could argue that he pushed Bran trough the window to save Cersei alone (even if I disagree), but still, he did it because he loved her. Killing Alton was just plain fun.

#28 insertname

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:17 PM

It's already been established that Jon will get his orders(See episode 10 description). The reeds merely haven't been cast for season 2, they will meet up eventually. Dany's story has been an improvement, Quarth itself hasn't been that important so it doesn't matter if they deviate from the books and the current story is more interesting than what happens in the books imo.

As for Jaime...If killing Alton was the only way and there was a sensible chance at escaping, then I would be okay with this. However, it was obvious that he would get caught, and he could just have beaten Alton bloody instead of killing him.
Jaime doesn't blink an eye at killing, but he's neither really cruel nor stupid. Out of character, imo.

#29 imladolen

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 01:51 PM

I stand by what I wrote on another Jaime thread from this episode's forum.

The scene did not erase any "gray areas" as people mention above, it only reinforces it.

ETA: corrected spelling above, and also want to point out that the post below is what I posted on the other thread, so you can read it here without having to go over there :-)

I found Jaime's killing of Alton to be completely in character; yes it was cold blooded (and coldly logical), and yes it makes him a kinslayer. But you have to look at the bigger picture.

First, as we all know, it is the first duty of any prisoner (especially a POW during a war) to escape (aside from those knights and nobles given their parole and swear to not escape, but those people aren't going to be penned in squalor, but in conditions befitting their rank). This supercedes just about everything, especially when you consider that the prisoner is one of the army's commanders, the brother of the queen mum, a member of the Kingsgaurd and the uncle (well, father really) of the King. Jaime Lannister is much much more important than little old Alton Lannister. Even Alton kind of referenced this when he mentions how his father feared Alton would "embarass the family in front of The Family." The welfare, safety and freedom of the children of Lord Lannister supercedes all other minor family members (at least in this sort of feudal setting). Not to mention the fact that Jaime is one of the greatest warriors on his side of the war. His value is worth sacrificing the life of a distant relative. And Alton was completely sincere when he said he would do anything to help Jaime escape. Sorry, but if you are an enlisted man or lower ranked officer and you are imprisoned with one of your army's most important officers, and your death will help your commander to escape, it really is your duty to die in this situation.

I'm not saying Jaime enjoyed killing Alton, I think it did pain him inside, just as it pained him to push Bran out that window, just as it pained him to violate his oath when he killed Mad King Aerys. But, as he explained to Cat, you have to weigh one oath against another, weigh one wrong against another. Allowing Aerys II to live and most likely burn all of King's Landing to the ground (and killing thousands of the weak and innocent he had sworn to protect) was a worse violation than killing the king. The wrong of pushing Bran out the window paled when you compare it to the death sentence that would be meeted out to him, his sister Cersei and the three children they had together if Bran had told anyone what he had witnessed. What is the life of one child you are not even related to (and don't even really know) when you compare it to the life of the woman you love and your OWN three children? The wrong of killing a distant member of the Lannister family paled in comparison to the wrongs that could be done to his family and kingdom as a whole (from his POV) if he remained a prisoner. Yes, he might have an inflated sense of importance as to his role in winning the war, but remember, despite being almost universally called the Kingslayer, he is still regarded throughout Westeros as one of the greatest warriors alive. His skills in combat, and likely in command, would be invaluable to maintaining his house's prominance, and maintaining Joffrey on the throne. If his family lost the war, what the hell do you think would happen to Joffrey, Myrcella, Tommen and Cersei? They would all be killed, as would most likely his brother and father. I'm sorry, I am a (mostly) non-violent person (and I don't think I could sleep well for years if I ever took a life, even accidentally), but if I had three children by a woman, and all four of their lives (as well as mine) could be saved by me killing someone else's 10 year old son, I'd do it in a heartbeat, and I think most parents on here would do the same. Yes, it would be an emotionally painful thing, something I would hate doing, but it boils down to the life of my children and their mother, or that boys life. Unless something is serioulsy wired WRONG inside you, your children's wellbeing should override just about everything else.

Jaime simply HAD TO ESCAPE. He had no other option. And he had already thought through every possible way of escaping, and he saw none, unless he could somehow lure his guard inside the stockade. And there was no reasonable way to lure the guard in without doing something completley shocking and baffling, something the guard wouldn't really be able to believe until he saw it up close.

And that is exactly what the killing of Alton did. The Karstark boy heard something going on, couldn't really see what it was, but probably thought it looked like exactly what it was: Jaime beating his own cousin. "But that couldn't be," the guard must have thought, "that would just be impossible." So the guard came in (foolishly, yes) by himself to investigate what the hell really happened, distracting himself from Jaime to pay attention to this shuddering body laying on the ground, giving Jaime the opening to act, and to escape.

One of the ongoing themes in the books for Jaime Lannister (as I see it) is that to do the right thing, sometimes you have to do the wrong thing. That old "the ends justify the means" and "the good of the many outweighs the good of the few" dilemnas. In Jaime's case, it was escaping justifies killing a distant cousin, no matter how much you sympathize with and understand his hero worship of you, and the good of the kingdom and the Lannister family outweighed the good of one minor member of the Lannister family. To Jaime's point of view, keeping Joffrey on the throne means the Lannisters are in charge of the kingdom, and to him, that is a good thing (remember, at this point, Jaime hasn't really seen how nasty Joffrey has become, yes he knows the boy was foolish and had Ned Stark executed, but he hasn't seen Joffrey's complete decent into Aerys II-like madness yet.

Jaime truly loves his sister at this point still, and loves his (secret) children by her, and loves his brother Tyrion, as well as his father (though I would say he is a bit intimidated by Tywin as well). Yes, it might be arrogant of him to believe that his escape would ensure their side winning the war (hell, the books kind of back him up on this as he pretty much brings an end to the War of Five Kings himself later on, which brings the suffering of even the smallfolk to an end, at least for now). But when you are a man like Jaime, you have every reason to believe you really will make a difference in the war.

If you are warrior, and thus someone already willing to kill and possible die for your sides cause, then yes, you will kill whom you have to to ensure your side wins.

What Jaime did, no matter how repulsive it may be to us, was done out of loyalty and love, a sacrifice that was necessary for his King and family.

Next thing I know, y'all are gonna damn Jaime for killing Aerys II Targaryen, the Mad King. It was the right thing to do (as Obi Wan Kenobi said “from a certain point of view," yet it was the wrong thing to do from a different point of view.

It's all shades of grey folks, and all depends on your point of view

Jaime simply did what he had to do, whether he liked what he was doing or not. He was practical and he was logical. And it worked (at least for a while).


Edited by imlad, 15 May 2012 - 01:54 PM.


#30 gogorath

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 02:07 PM

The irony of this whole discussion is that the vast majority of non-book readers I talk to love Jaime -- he's a sort of Han Solo meets Tony Soprano. They don't mind the awful things he does because he's good-looking, witty and honest about his intentions.

If anything, D&D aren't portraying him as awful enough. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> That's one of the risks of losing the POV structure.

#31 Mulled Wino

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 02:14 PM

He loved his brother.
"The things I do for love".


huh?

No, he didn't kill him to escape captivity.


yes he did, well if we believe what he said.


Killing him didn't help escape at all.


yes it did, he escaped, he was caught later, but he still escaped.


That's why we complain that much about this scene. It's just a psychopath's kill, for no reason.

You could argue that he pushed Bran trough the window to save Cersei alone (even if I disagree),


well, I base my opinion on jamie's actual opinions in his pov's in the book that he clearly, explicitly states. what is your opinion based on


Killing Alton was just plain fun.


not surprising, he's a complete sociopath, there is absolutely no question about it. he pretty much kicked off the entire war and doesn't give a damn about it, or the fact that he shoved a 10 year old out of a window

#32 Patchface12

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 02:14 PM

The only defense I can think of for this is that the Jaime of the books might think about doing something like that, tho I don't know he'd go thru with it.

Its not entirely untrue to books, since Jaime didn't care even a little bit when Cleos was killed.

I'm assuming his role beyond will be filled by some random dead solider/knight outside of Maidenpool, since dying and providing Jaime a sword is all he was good for beyond this point.

Edited by Patchface12, 15 May 2012 - 02:17 PM.


#33 Mulled Wino

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 02:18 PM

The irony of this whole discussion is that the vast majority of non-book readers I talk to love Jaime -- he's a sort of Han Solo meets Tony Soprano. They don't mind the awful things he does because he's good-looking, witty and honest about his intentions.

If anything, D&D aren't portraying him as awful enough. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> That's one of the risks of losing the POV structure.


i like him in both. we cant expect ever character to be fully developed in the GOT TV series, its just asking too much so just keep him a heartless badass. i agree with the bold, jamie is a complete ahole until he gains some respect for brienne in the books and there's nothing he could do that I would put past him.

#34 Pliskin

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 02:52 PM

huh?



yes he did, well if we believe what he said.




yes it did, he escaped, he was caught later, but he still escaped.4

I didn't say he didn't escape, I said it didn't help him escape.
He could have punched him hard, and they would have fooled the guard both.
And he would have an ally in the escape...

he pretty much kicked off the entire war and doesn't give a damn about it

No, he thought the boy would die. Which would have prevented the war, not triggered it.
I'm not defending him. Cersei herself thought Jaime was pretty stupid on this (and though it hurts me to admit it, I cannot really say she's wrong). But the fact is that he got his reasons. Even it was bad or stupid reasons.
That just wasn't the case with Alton.

#35 Songlian

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 03:08 PM

1) It gave Jaime something dramatic to do and reintroduces him to the the viewers in a fantastic way. The audience hasn't seen him in many episodes.

2) The scene was well written and acted. Both actors were great and I didn't see it coming until Alton kept creeping closer to Jaime.

3) It only serves to enhance Jaime's upcoming redemption arc in Seasons 3 and 4.

4) It adds more sense of immediacy to the Karstark subplot. Now the audience understands who Rickard Karstark is and why he is so adamant on having Jaime dead.


I couldn't agree with you more, and well put! The scene, imo, was amazing.

#36 Rockroi

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 03:45 PM

As I mentioned in another post on the Episode review, I would have prefered that they save those 4 minutes and use it to have Jamie provide the backstory of how he became the Kingslayer and how Lord Rickard and Brandon Stark died. That whole scene in the books he's being a total dick to Catelyn. With them rushing to get so much in, I would have loved for people who haven't read the books get some more valuable history. It helps people understand better what's going on and why.


This seems to be an all to "spot on" analysis of the issue in Game of Thrones (the series). The producers are racing to fit as much as possible into every episode that they are jettisoning a lot from the show that added so much in the books.

I think the "Cat & Jaime" scene from this last episode was absolute evidence of this phenomenon. They literally cannot wait another second to release Jaime when it makes the most sense in the story- when Cat is depressed over the loss of her two youngest boys and wants more than anything to ensure the safety of Sansa and maybe even Arya. Instead, the show cannot wait one more moment. They rush Jaime's release and up jump it ahead of Bran and Rickon's "Death." This type of rush just makes us scratch our heads and wonder "Why not wait?" To compound the problem, the show keeps adding in materials that has as all ... underwhelmed. Roz, the baffling relationship between Sansa and Shae; Jon Snow's almost schizophrenic behavior north of the wall ("I free you... NO WAIT! COME BACK! You're my prisoner. No wait, now I'm your prisoner); to the time-sink in Qarth as Dany gets involved in a power-battle nobody would ever care about and that is utterly extraneous. Some of these are understandable (for Dany and Jon my guess is that they have agents and publicists who basically insist that their actor gets more time and the producers know that they need to keep these actors happy long term); other changes are just strange.

Now, do not mistake me- ultimately the reasons for the vast majority of changes are clear: the story is huge. The show needs to pin and chop story as much as possible and then take much from Book 3 and shove it, somehow, into season 2. This is why, presumably, Jaime is freed in Episode 7 (as opposed to 10); so that the opening chapters of Storm of Swords can be explained in the closing episodes of Season 2. This is necessary because SoS is a gigantic book and you have to find any space you can get. To give you some idea about how HUGE SoS is, keep this in mind that a certain pair of colorful "Weddings" occur in those books and the "main events" of those two weddings happen on pages 583 and 684, respectively, of SoS (its almost incredible that there are over 100 pages BETWEEN those two events; in my head they are practically back-to-back chapters the way I remember the books). Well, SoS, including the Epilogue, is 924 pages. That means at the time of the first wedding I mentioned, the book is not even 2/3 complete; there is still over 1/3 of a book left to read! That's how F**KING big SoS is.

They need to cut as much space as humanly possible.

I mean, did you notice that we have already had AT LEAST ONE scene from SoS in Season 2? ("Drogon, Dracarys".... well not that time, the first time she says it) I mean, they have even front-loaded a conversation FROM BOOK 5 into the season ("M'lord... not 'my lord'). The show is trying to rearrange portions in order to fit all the pieces together as efficiently as possible.

And that may be the problem. Commerce and Art are, once again, proving a dicey marriage.

Edited by Rockroi, 15 May 2012 - 03:46 PM.


#37 Fantôme

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 03:49 PM

I prefer him as a cold-blooded, ruthless guy who people fear. There's plenty enough EMO going on on the TV Series with the way they are portraying Cersei and Jon Snow so far.


That makes him way too one dimensional for me. I'm not very fond of Jaime, never forgave him for what he did to Bran and wasn't convinced by his redemption attempt but still found his chapters really interesting because there's more to him than just a ruthless scary dude. And we already have that too," a cold-blooded, ruthless guy who people fear" fits Tywin very well (book Tywin at least). Hence me not liking the murder of poor cousin.
On the other hand , attempting to kill a child to protect his secret was unforgivable enough for me but apparently some people think he's still "too nice" to need a redemption so...maybe it was actually necessary.

I guess it's sarcasm ?
Because protecting two innocent children's heads, one not so innocent's head too, your love of your life's head, and yours too (if not trying to prevent a war that could have bled all the Westerlands if not the whole Westeros)... isn't exactly just about sex life.



Where do you get that Jaime ever gave a damn about his children ? (not to mention a war that could have bled the Westerlands or the whole world for that matter, honestly!) We get quite the opposite impression from the book.I get people arguing about Jaime being great and filled with good intentions after Brienne and the loss of his hand but there's no justifying Bran's attempted murder.

#38 Fantôme

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 03:49 PM

Double post sorry

Edited by Fantôme, 15 May 2012 - 03:50 PM.


#39 RoamingRonin

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 04:52 PM

He could have knocked out Alton and killed two Stark guards during his (failed) escape. Mayhaps they're getting rid of the kinslaying aspect.

#40 Pliskin

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 05:11 PM

Where do you get that Jaime ever gave a damn about his children ? (not to mention a war that could have bled the Westerlands or the whole world for that matter, honestly!) We get quite the opposite impression from the book.I get people arguing about Jaime being great and filled with good intentions after Brienne and the loss of his hand but there's no justifying Bran's attempted murder.

He might not have thought of his children explicitly, but Jaime is (was) a man who acts on impulse. He thought "the world cannot know, there is too much at stake, so I kill the boy".

And the truth is that there would have been war, Tywin Lannister wouldn't have just sit and watch his family being executed.