129 replies to this topic

[Volantis]

Katydid, on 13 May 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

I'm trying, really I am.  I'm trying hard to reconcile the liberties they're taking in this series, and go with the flow with the changes/additions/subtractions.  For the most part, I've done alright (save for anytime we see Ros on screen.)

But Jaime is now a kinslayer.  Pointlessly, needlessly, it added nothing to the story that I can see.  Cleos was a goner anyway.  So what was wrong with the way GRRM wrote his death?

Fail.

Not to mention the dumbest escape attempt ever

[Volantis]

Xanrn, on 19 May 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

What I hated about this scene.

Was in the name of fucking hell was Torrehen Karstark a fucking noble, guarding prisoners all by his goddam lonesome..

1. One guard is just stupid even for 2 men.
2. Nobles do not to guard duty in the middle of the night, maybe in command of other guards.
3. Really wearing the Keys on your belt?
4. Its a miracle Kingslayer didn't make a rope from the belts and grapple the keys.

The whole scene was a stupid scene.

Why do they need to make that Catelyns reason for freeing Jaime, when they fake killed Rickon and Bran anyway.

Just bad writing

[Volantis]

Getting rid of a pointless character

[Rolex Baratheon]

Especially when he could've asked Alton to simply play dead to attract the guard's attention.

[MikeL]

C'mon guys.  I don't get where you're coming from to say it was out of character.  For starters we all accept that there is no where near as much time for character development on the screen as there is in the books (so things *must* be changed), however you do get to see their faces and that makes up for a lot.  Nikolaj Coster-Waldau plays Jaime with such complexity that you know there is a lot going on in his head, even if he is choosing the wisecrack things to say.  He's a smart tactician and he knows that if he can get out of the cell then he has a decent chance of getting free.  These camps aren't exactly Fort Knox, the look outs are watching beyond the camp, not within it.

Did he have to kill him to get attention? probably not, but his number one goal was to escape, and to do that he had to create real violence, and do it quickly and (relatively) silently so that the injured Alton didn't scream and attract attention from the rest of the camp.  How does it make him any less complex for him to not really care about that kid? - he's probably killed quite a few before, and no one in Westeros really holds that against him.  That's whats so grounded about this show - so based on historical accounts of societies like this.  No one in that era had the luxury of valuing life for life's sake, it's only about what that life is good for.  Jaime isn't the type to get caught up in moral dilemmas, he just saw an opportunity and he took it. The guard wasn't expecting to get attacked when he entered - I mean it's not uncommon for prisoners to get into brawls, and that's part of what being a prison guard is.  That's undoubtedly another reason why Jaime knew he had to be quick as there would be other guards that would notice.

I think those of you who are moralising about whether it was in character for Jaime are still imposing your own morals on the show.  Yes the change was expedient for screen time, but we've already established that Jaime will do anything as long as he holds to what is important to him, and Alton's life wasn't.

[Bolivar]

In the eyes of gods and men, no one is as accursed as the kinslayer.

I'm honestly shocked that so many people on this forum, people who have been posting for quite a while, really liked the scene. The show is shitting all over Westerosi culture, but ok, I guess that's a nerdy thing for the book fans to get upset over. But they are totally mischaracterizing Jaime. The show wants the gratuitous, selfish violence because it draws in the big crowd.

But in Jaime's eyes, he honestly doesn't see himself as a "bad" person. He truthfully believes that Bran was a malicious kid spying on people having sex, that it wasn't a grievous sin to throw him out the window in the heat of the moment. Randomly killing a Lannister is the absolute last thing Jaime would do.

"But they only have ten hours a season!" would be a semi-satisfactory defense if they weren't adding in so much made up, and frankly, poorly written garbage at the same time.

[MikeL]

It was when you said the tv series is shitting all over the books that you lost me.  In the words of GRRM himself...

The Geek: So, you happy with the TV series?

Martin

: Oh yes, I love the TV series. I've been involved since the beginning. I'm an executive producer on it. And I write one script per season, so my involvement has been very active. Not like many novelists who simply sell the rights and then take a hands-off role. I've been intimately involved in the casting and of course I've written my own scripts. I talk constantly with David and Dan the executive producers and show runners. They've done an amazing job and stayed very faithful to the story. There've been some changes, but that's inevitable on a project like this. It's been a great ride so far and I hope it will continue for many years to come

Read more: http://www.smh.com.a...l#ixzz2IRD9XMyR

I think the main disagreement we are having is that the people who didn't like that scene see it as gratuitous, and the people who did like it, don't.

What makes you think that Jaime has that kind of loyalty to his family name? did he not forsake his claim to Casterly Rock by joining the King's Guard? I think that for pre-SOS Jaime, it would be completely in character for him to condemn his own children to death if Cersei's life was in danger and he was saving her in the process.  Everything he's ever done was about her, and that's why he would do anything to get back to her (including stupid impulsive escape attempts).

[Nezzer]

Bolivar, on 18 January 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

In the eyes of gods and men, no one is as accursed as the kinslayer.

Yeah, and breaking guest rights and betraying your king as a Kinsguard are also very dishonorable and major crimes to that culture. But when did Jaime ever cared about these taboos? He's always despised them or do you seriously think Jaime would be worried about being "accursed" by gods and men? He even thought about killing Lancel, who is a first cousin and not just a very distant relative like Alton.

There are some people that excuse all the bad stuff Jaime did before losing his hand only because of his redemption. They seem to forget that he wasn't just misunderstood, but that he's changed. Two-handed Jaime was a huge prick who cared nothing about anything other than Cersei and cared even less about these "rules" of society. That's why I think being a kinslayer is complety in-character for him, as he never cared about things like that.

My only gripe with him killing Alton was that it was gratuitous and unnecessary, like MikeL said. He didn't need to kill Alton to escape, and that's why I don't like that scene. If he told him to feign death it would work the same way.

[Cruella]

Quote

My only gripe with him killing Alton was that it was gratuitous and unnecessary, like MikeL said. He didn't need to kill Alton to escape, and that's why I don't like that scene. If he told him to feign death it would work the same way.

But that's kind of a biggie, isn't it? It turns a character from cruel guy ready to do anything to get home to crazy sociopath. I actually do believe that if it was a sure way to get back to Cersei, Jaime would kill his relative without much worry. But killing him when it's absolutely unnecessary is something that Ramsey Bolton would do. (not even mentioning that book Jaime would like Alton as shown here, just as he liked Loras). Not even Roose, because it's also STUPID - if Alton played-dead, they could overpower Karstark and guards together so much easier! So he not just killed a relative, but killed him for shits and giggles and counterproductive to his directive.

Many people pointed out problems with this scene, like stupidity of Karstark guarding Jaime by himself. But what exactly was Jaime's plan here?
1. Kill relative.
2. ???
3. Profit!

Why would Karstark enter the cage after Jaime just violently attacked a prisoner? Why would he do it alone? What did he think was going to happen? Isn't Jaime in the middle of a camp? (He has to be, right? Or is Robb criminally stupid too?) What Jaime did after getting the key, isn't he surrounded by enemies? Including sentries. What exactly happened, did he kill sentries? Did he get a horse? What? You can't show escape plan and not show a difficult part of it. Why would he assume that Karstark is going to wander into his cell? I literally don't get Karstark's thought process here, why wouldn't he call people? He deserves some kind of Darwin award for sure. Why not ask Alton to pretend to be unconscious so they could, you know, together overpower the guards? Did Jaime just want to kill this likable guy for no reason whatsoever?

[Nezzer]

Cruella, on 21 January 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

But that's kind of a biggie, isn't it? It turns a character from cruel guy ready to do anything to get home to crazy sociopath. I actually do believe that if it was a sure way to get back to Cersei, Jaime would kill his relative without much worry. But killing him when it's absolutely unnecessary is something that Ramsey Bolton would do. (not even mentioning that book Jaime would like Alton as shown here, just as he liked Loras). Not even Roose, because it's also STUPID - if Alton played-dead, they could overpower Karstark and guards together so much easier! So he not just killed a relative, but killed him for shits and giggles and counterproductive to his directive.

Many people pointed out problems with this scene, like stupidity of Karstark guarding Jaime by himself. But what exactly was Jaime's plan here?
1. Kill relative.
2. ???
3. Profit!

Why would Karstark enter the cage after Jaime just violently attacked a prisoner? Why would he do it alone? What did he think was going to happen? Isn't Jaime in the middle of a camp? (He has to be, right? Or is Robb criminally stupid too?) What Jaime did after getting the key, isn't he surrounded by enemies? Including sentries. What exactly happened, did he kill sentries? Did he get a horse? What? You can't show escape plan and not show a difficult part of it. Why would he assume that Karstark is going to wander into his cell? I literally don't get Karstark's thought process here, why wouldn't he call people? He deserves some kind of Darwin award for sure. Why not ask Alton to pretend to be unconscious so they could, you know, together overpower the guards? Did Jaime just want to kill this likable guy for no reason whatsoever?

Yeah, I get you. It's poorly written, but most book readers are complaining about it because of the kinslaying, which I don't think is a problem for a guy like Jaime. Anyway, it was a bad scene.

Edited by Nezzer, 21 January 2013 - 06:30 AM.