289 replies to this topic

[Kittykatknits]

Between Sansa, Jon, and Jaime, I'm not really sure what to think. We have the butterfly effect in force now too. So all these changes are just going to be more pronounced.

I *think* the logic with Shae was to give Sansa a method to voice the inner thoughts that she had in the book. I don't like it either though.

The cynic in me thinks the problem is that Sansa can't take her dress off but I'm trying hard not to have thought that. I also think we may see more characterization from here in season three when the show can show how ungrateful and selfish she is for not being delighted for being forcibly being married to Tyrion The Hero.

[seikai]

hk47, on 19 May 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

Not to mention, since when did they become BFF?  It's like a scene was left out or something.

Exactly. It just goes against Sansa's character... I just can't imagine her confiding in and trusting Shae when she knows Shae works for the Lannisters. Not unless Shae did something to really save Sansa's ass somewhere along the line. There were very few people Sansa trusted when trying to survive Joffrey's reign - and the few people she DID sort of trust, she was still extremely cautious around (e.g. Ser Dontos, whom she was still having wary thoughts about, and the Hound, whom she trusted enough to protect her, but did not trust enough to completely drop the facade of not "luffing Joffrey" - like when she lied to him about praying for Joffrey's safety).

Edited by seikai, 20 May 2012 - 01:12 AM.

[seikai]

Kittykatknits, on 19 May 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

Between Sansa, Jon, and Jaime, I'm not really sure what to think. We have the butterfly effect in force now too. So all these changes are just going to be more pronounced.

I *think* the logic with Shae was to give Sansa a method to voice the inner thoughts that she had in the book. I don't like it either though.

The cynic in me thinks the problem is that Sansa can't take her dress off but I'm trying hard not to have thought that. I also think we may see more characterization from here in season three when the show can show how ungrateful and selfish she is for not being delighted for being forcibly being married to Tyrion The Hero.

Yeah, I guess they're trying to show Sansa's inner thoughts through her interactions with Shae. It's sad, because they could've accomplished the same thing more effectively by including the scenes with the Hound, more scenes of Sansa's small defiances against Joffrey, and the scene where she told Ser Meryn (yes, the man who beat the crap out of her with the back of his sword) to his face that he was no true knight. Just those scenes could show Sansa's disgust with the knights, prince, and queen that she loved so much previously, as well as her struggle to stay alive while at the same time doing what's right. They don't need her to have a slumber party with her new BFF Shae in order to spill her woes out that way.

You're probably right that they didn't include that scene because they didn't want to show her naked. But I really wouldn't have minded if they decided to keep her nighties on (perhaps give the nighties a blood stain), and still have her trying to set the mattress on fire. They can exercise a bit of creativity there - just like how they didn't have Dany actually show one breast at Quarth (no matter how happy that would've made Ser Jorah). Ha ha, I'm also wondering how they're going to approach Tyrion's wedding to her. I can imagine them making her look completely unsympathetic when she refuses to kneel so he can put the cloak on her. Wouldn't be surprised if more Sansa hate springs up after that episode.

[atia-]

I would guess that they will definitely take a different spin on that.  Since Tyrion is a fan favorite, they're not going to want to make him look like a creepy pedophile.

[Buckwheat]

Kittykatknits, on 19 May 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

Between Sansa, Jon, and Jaime, I'm not really sure what to think. We have the butterfly effect in force now too. So all these changes are just going to be more pronounced.

I *think* the logic with Shae was to give Sansa a method to voice the inner thoughts that she had in the book. I don't like it either though.

The cynic in me thinks the problem is that Sansa can't take her dress off but I'm trying hard not to have thought that. I also think we may see more characterization from here in season three when the show can show how ungrateful and selfish she is for not being delighted for being forcibly being married to Tyrion The Hero.

(yes, I understand your sarcasm)

If they show her as a stupid brat not wanting to give herself to Saint Tyrion and kneel in front of him on their wedding because she is shallow and only looks of a person are important to her, or if they actually show her kneeling, that would ruin her whole character. They are already doing the best to accomplish this, though.

[Rapsie]

Buckwheat, on 20 May 2012 - 05:06 AM, said:

[/b]
(yes, I understand your sarcasm)

If they show her as a stupid brat not wanting to give herself to Saint Tyrion and kneel in front of him on their wedding because she is shallow and only looks of a person are important to her, or if they actually show her kneeling, that would ruin her whole character. They are already doing the best to accomplish this, though.

Also they way in which they have taken all the greyness out of Tyrion's character, means that it will probably be a case of evil Sansa, what a bitch when it comes to not kneeling at the wedding. Instead of it being about her not wanting to marry a Lannister, it may in fact become because he isn't a handsome Knight and of course he will probably be forced just as much as she is.

Even the few lines of defiance they have given her make her sound bratty as opposed to strong. In the original scene when Myrcella goes away and she tries to comfort Tommen, she compares him to a two great knights who cried (which is kind and inspiring), her line to Joff in the TV show, was defient but also childish. They have taken all her knowledge about House sigils and stories and given those things to Arya's character. They are really butchering the awareness she has of the situation she is in. Also all her conversations with Shae, take away from her character the fact that she didn't trust anyone and the only person she let her guard down with, was Sandor and Dontos. Instead of scaring her, Cersei is being semi-nice, but then show Cersei is another nit-pick entirely.

From what I've read from discussion forums from people who haven't read the books, is that they are not really aware that Sansa and the Hound have any sort of connection at all. I doubt there will be any Sansa in tonight's episode, so the BBW scene is just going to seem really out of place.

[Buckwheat]

Rapsie, on 20 May 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

Also they way in which they have taken all the greyness out of Tyrion's character, means that it will probably be a case of evil Sansa, what a bitch when it comes to not kneeling at the wedding. Instead of it being about her not wanting to marry a Lannister, it may in fact become because he isn't a handsome Knight and of course he will probably be forced just as much as she is.

Even the few lines of defiance they have given her make her sound bratty as opposed to strong. In the original scene when Myrcella goes away and she tries to comfort Tommen, she compares him to a two great knights who cried (which is kind and inspiring), her line to Joff in the TV show, was defient but also childish. They have taken all her knowledge about House sigils and stories and given those things to Arya's character. They are really butchering the awareness she has of the situation she is in. Also all her conversations with Shae, take away from her character the fact that she didn't trust anyone and the only person she let her guard down with, was Sandor and Dontos. Instead of scaring her, Cersei is being semi-nice, but then show Cersei is another nit-pick entirely.

From what I've read from discussion forums from people who haven't read the books, is that they are not really aware that Sansa and the Hound have any sort of connection at all. I doubt there will be any Sansa in tonight's episode, so the BBW scene is just going to seem really out of place.

I agree that they are making Tyrion look very smart and gentlemanly and all, since he was the one who stopped ser Meryn beating Sansa in the throne room, and in the end of the scene, the camera focused very much on him instead of Sansa. It fell out like the scene was there only to show what a good man Tyrion is against the evil Joffrey, with Sansa being just "some person in between on which the argument between two guys is based".

I dearly hope you are wrong about not showing the Hound in the next episode, but fear you are right. I feel bad for the non-readers if all they can think of Sansa is that she is some abuse victim without a personality, entirely dependant on Tyrion's paramour who is likely spying on her.

Hey, random thought: what if Shae was actually the one who betrayed the flowering to the queen and the scene with her threatening the other maid was a red herring?

I observe that most of the characters whose personalities have been changed significantly in the series are female:

• Sansa, obviously
  
• Cat, much weaker and undecided and playing the concerned mother who should be at home with the younger children and who dearly loves to meet the girl her firstborn has a crush on (does anyone else think that the "I wish you were free to follow your heart" line is very much out of place? Cat simply does not think that way)
  
• Cersei, melanholic desperate mother unable to rein her son in
  
• Jeyne / Talisa or whatever her name is now - from the shy blushing highborn maid to someone who dares to question the king without being reprimanded, likely from the latest romantic comedy
  
• Shae, now helping (?) Sansa and explaining the world ("Your horses eat better than their children") to her because obviously Sansa is too silly to understand it on her own

The ones left of the main female characters are Arya, who is half a boy anyway, Dany and Brienne, and possibly Melisandre. The only male characters who have been changed are Jaime, killing his cousin, and Renly, who is dead now.

[protar]

Rapsie, on 20 May 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

Also they way in which they have taken all the greyness out of Tyrion's character, means that it will probably be a case of evil Sansa, what a bitch when it comes to not kneeling at the wedding. Instead of it being about her not wanting to marry a Lannister, it may in fact become because he isn't a handsome Knight and of course he will probably be forced just as much as she is. Even the few lines of defiance they have given her make her sound bratty as opposed to strong. In the original scene when Myrcella goes away and she tries to comfort Tommen, she compares him to a two great knights who cried (which is kind and inspiring), her line to Joff in the TV show, was defient but also childish. They have taken all her knowledge about House sigils and stories and given those things to Arya's character. They are really butchering the awareness she has of the situation she is in. Also all her conversations with Shae, take away from her character the fact that she didn't trust anyone and the only person she let her guard down with, was Sandor and Dontos. Instead of scaring her, Cersei is being semi-nice, but then show Cersei is another nit-pick entirely. From what I've read from discussion forums from people who haven't read the books, is that they are not really aware that Sansa and the Hound have any sort of connection at all. I doubt there will be any Sansa in tonight's episode, so the BBW scene is just going to seem really out of place.

BBW scene? Battle of the Blackwater I assume, but I'll admit I did a double take

[Rapsie]

protar, on 20 May 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

BBW scene? Battle of the Blackwater I assume, but I'll admit I did a double take

Generally the Battle of Blackwater is shortened to BBW, but I originally got it confused with the Brotherhood Without Banners (BWB for short) too. It would be a bit of a jump if they suddenly had the Hound meeting Arya in the episode after next! Though given some of the series choices I wouldn't be surprised!

[protar]

Rapsie, on 20 May 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

Generally the Battle of Blackwater is shortened to BBW, but I originally got it confused with the Brotherhood Without Banners (BWB for short) too. It would be a bit of a jump if they suddenly had the Hound meeting Arya in the episode after next! Though given some of the series choices I wouldn't be surprised!

Actually I had it confused for a different acronym not related to the series. Now I feel dirty minded for being the only one to notice it.

Edited by protar, 20 May 2012 - 07:53 AM.

[seikai]

Rapsie, on 20 May 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

Also they way in which they have taken all the greyness out of Tyrion's character, means that it will probably be a case of evil Sansa, what a bitch when it comes to not kneeling at the wedding. Instead of it being about her not wanting to marry a Lannister, it may in fact become because he isn't a handsome Knight and of course he will probably be forced just as much as she is.

Rapsie, on 20 May 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

They are really butchering the awareness she has of the situation she is in. Also all her conversations with Shae, take away from her character the fact that she didn't trust anyone and the only person she let her guard down with, was Sandor and Dontos. Instead of scaring her, Cersei is being semi-nice, but then show Cersei is another nit-pick entirely.

When you put these two points together, I realized that that's just going to make the wedding scene (and the subsequent scenes after the marriage where Sansa is cold to Tyrion) so much worse. The fact that Sansa is trusting and confiding in Shae, along with her rather friendly and almost motherly (?!) relationship with Cersei, is going to make it SO much worse when she refuses to trust Tyrion. Because according to TV viewers, all they're going to see is Sansa being nice to Shae and Cersei, while Tyrion is the only Lannister that saved her several times but gets nothing but coldness from her.

Rapsie, on 20 May 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

From what I've read from discussion forums from people who haven't read the books, is that they are not really aware that Sansa and the Hound have any sort of connection at all. I doubt there will be any Sansa in tonight's episode, so the BBW scene is just going to seem really out of place.

I can't really blame them. As I was watching this on TV, I was thinking to myself that if this was the first time I was seeing the story, I would be totally confused by all the fan videos of SanSan on youtube. They must have cut out more than 2/3 of the scenes Sansa had with the Hound - most of them pertinent to their relationship. (I'm not sure why they chose to keep the scene where the Hound tells her that he loves killing so much and Sansa runs away from him, but didn't keep others that would help make that Battle of Blackwater scene seem less random. Good god, that scene is probably going to be very awkward and out of nowhere.)

[SerMixalot]

protar, on 20 May 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

Actually I had it confused for a different acronym not related to the series. Now I feel dirty minded for being the only one to notice it.

u werent the only one

[SerMixalot]

Buckwheat, on 20 May 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

I agree that they are making Tyrion look very smart and gentlemanly and all, since he was the one who stopped ser Meryn beating Sansa in the throne room, and in the end of the scene, the camera focused very much on him instead of Sansa. It fell out like the scene was there only to show what a good man Tyrion is against the evil Joffrey, with Sansa being just "some person in between on which the argument between two guys is based". I dearly hope you are wrong about not showing the Hound in the next episode, but fear you are right. I feel bad for the non-readers if all they can think of Sansa is that she is some abuse victim without a personality, entirely dependant on Tyrion's paramour who is likely spying on her. Hey, random thought: what if Shae was actually the one who betrayed the flowering to the queen and the scene with her threatening the other maid was a red herring? I observe that most of the characters whose personalities have been changed significantly in the series are female:

• Sansa, obviously
• Cat, much weaker and undecided and playing the concerned mother who should be at home with the younger children and who dearly loves to meet the girl her firstborn has a crush on (does anyone else think that the "I wish you were free to follow your heart" line is very much out of place? Cat simply does not think that way)
• Cersei, melanholic desperate mother unable to rein her son in
• Jeyne / Talisa or whatever her name is now - from the shy blushing highborn maid to someone who dares to question the king without being reprimanded, likely from the latest romantic comedy
• Shae, now helping (?) Sansa and explaining the world ("Your horses eat better than their children") to her because obviously Sansa is too silly to understand it on her own

The ones left of the main female characters are Arya, who is half a boy anyway, Dany and Brienne, and possibly Melisandre. The only male characters who have been changed are Jaime, killing his cousin, and Renly, who is dead now.

i dont think HBO will be that subtle

[seikai]

Buckwheat, on 20 May 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

Hey, random thought: what if Shae was actually the one who betrayed the flowering to the queen and the scene with her threatening the other maid was a red herring?

I wouldn't be surprised - in fact, I would very much hope that's the case, since I just can't imagine the Hound being the first person to rush over and report this to Cersei. It would also help establish a spy relationship between Shae and Cersei. The only thing is, I don't know if the show will address this issue again -it might never come up.

Buckwheat, on 20 May 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

I observe that most of the characters whose personalities have been changed significantly in the series are female:

• Sansa, obviously
• Cat, much weaker and undecided and playing the concerned mother who should be at home with the younger children and who dearly loves to meet the girl her firstborn has a crush on (does anyone else think that the "I wish you were free to follow your heart" line is very much out of place? Cat simply does not think that way)
• Cersei, melanholic desperate mother unable to rein her son in
• Jeyne / Talisa or whatever her name is now - from the shy blushing highborn maid to someone who dares to question the king without being reprimanded, likely from the latest romantic comedy
• Shae, now helping (?) Sansa and explaining the world ("Your horses eat better than their children") to her because obviously Sansa is too silly to understand it on her own

The ones left of the main female characters are Arya, who is half a boy anyway, Dany and Brienne, and possibly Melisandre. The only male characters who have been changed are Jaime, killing his cousin, and Renly, who is dead now.

Totally agree with the list. Pretty sad that they're making the women significantly weaker / stupider.

Sansa - Yup, way too trusting, and not nearly as educated in comparison to the books. She no longer manages to make jabs at Joffrey while Joffrey is too stupid to notice, and has the tendency to sound whiny instead. Whatever happened to "a lady's armor is courtesy" - isn't that the whole reason why the Hound calls her "Little Bird"? She trusts no one and sings pretty words to make them feel good and leave her alone. (As an aside - I can't remember the scene in the show where they explained why Sandor calls her Little Bird. Did they ever show this? Or did he just randomly start calling her "Little Bird"?)

Cat - Oh my gosh, yes. I never really loved Cat as a character, but they're making her really weak. Why in the world would they take away the fact that she slit the throat of one of the soldiers, and instead have her a damsel in distress waiting for Tyrion to save her? And I totally agree that the whole "follow your heart" comment is so out of character. I thought Cat was a very picky and class-conscious person? I can't imagine her wishing that Robb could marry whoever he pleases.

Jeyne/Talisa - One character that they made more "headstrong" (read: annoying and whining around at her FREAKING KING). It does totally sound like something directly out of a terrible romantic comedy. "When Jeyne Meets Robb" or something.

Shae - I can't stand how they're making her so mysterious and calculated and giving all these badass scenes to her. She's going around educating Sansa about how much the rest of the world is suffering (y'know... just in case Sansa wasn't aware that Joffrey wasn't doing a great job as King), and knows exactly what to do when a maid comes in and sees Sansa's period (act all badass and threaten her with a knife). I dunno - the Shae from the books didn't seem this wise. I explicitly remember her badgering Tyrion to let her attend the party and see dancing bears despite the great danger of doing so. She seemed more like a kid than Sansa.

Edited by seikai, 20 May 2012 - 10:19 AM.

[Rapsie]

seikai, on 20 May 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

When you put these two points together, I realized that that's just going to make the wedding scene (and the subsequent scenes after the marriage where Sansa is cold to Tyrion) so much worse. The fact that Sansa is trusting and confiding in Shae, along with her rather friendly and almost motherly (?!) relationship with Cersei, is going to make it SO much worse when she refuses to trust Tyrion. Because according to TV viewers, all they're going to see is Sansa being nice to Shae and Cersei, while Tyrion is the only Lannister that saved her several times but gets nothing but coldness from her.

That is an excellent point. Sansa was beaten daily, and even after Tyrion stopped the severist beating, Joff and Cersei were foul to her at every available oppertunity. They have also cut out the bit where Tyrion vowed she would be sent home and told Cleos Frey in front of the entire court that Sansa's treatment depended on her brother (in other words letting Sansa think the day to day beating would continue).

They have also cut all the lines where Sandor tells Sansa about his family and covers for her when Ser Meryn starts questioning her after meeting Dontos in the Godswood. But they have added in non-cannon conversations about Jaime being dyslexic. Beggers belief to be honest. Oh and don't even start me on them ditching the Ser Dontos escape story line.

protar, on 20 May 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

Actually I had it confused for a different acronym not related to the series. Now I feel dirty minded for being the only one to notice it.

SerMixalot, on 20 May 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

u werent the only one

  Okay I looked up your acronym. I understand the shock!

Edited by Rapsie, 20 May 2012 - 10:22 AM.

[SerMixalot]

I thought it had something to do with Lollys

[Valkyrja]

I was looking forward to San/San in the Blackwater episode, but now I am just dreading it as it will seem so out of place. I just can't believe how much of that storyline was cut.

I would rather see (a forever unconsummated) San/San relationship on screen during these precious few episodes of Clash that they actually interact (and what lovely interactions they have!) than see the (admittedly canon, but off-screen) relationship between Jeyne and Robb. But not only will they be showing these two 'getting it on', but they have wasted so much time on their ridiculous interactions since episode 4 when stupid Talisa (still can't get over what a stupid name that is!) showed up on that battlefield.

I'm sorry, but even if you don't ship San/San, you have to admit that the book scenes between Sansa + the Hound absolutely PWN this silly HBO version of Robb + Talisa.  

[protar]

Valkyrja, on 20 May 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

I was looking forward to San/San in the Blackwater episode, but now I am just dreading it as it will seem so out of place. I just can't believe how much of that storyline was cut. I would rather see (a forever unconsummated) San/San relationship on screen during these precious few episodes of Clash that they actually interact (and what lovely interactions they have!) than see the (admittedly canon, but off-screen) relationship between Jeyne and Robb. But not only will they be showing these two 'getting it on', but they have wasted so much time on their ridiculous interactions since episode 4 when stupid Talisa (still can't get over what a stupid name that is!) showed up on that battlefield. I'm sorry, but even if you don't ship San/San, you have to admit that the book scenes between Sansa + the Hound absolutely PWN this silly HBO version of Robb + Talisa.

IKR? I think they just decided to change Jeyne's character to be a more independent female character, instead of being all shy and blushing. It's just come across as completely unbelievable. Even the Unsullied aren't buying it.

[atia-]

GRRM has plenty of strong, independent women characters.  The show has decided to make pretty much all of them that way, except for Sansa, who really was pretty strong in the books and is looking like a whiny idiot in the shows.  Why does practically EVERY woman in the show have to be so strong-willed?  Jeyne and Shae do NOT act that way.  I guess the writers think it's more cool if every girl is a badass, but it's really unrealistic in the asoiaf world.  We have whores threatening to gouge the eyes out of Tywin Lannister's son and some spy Westerling girl from a rather poor noble family backtalking the king.  Really?  We have plenty of strong women already: Arya, Cersei, Dany, Margaery and her grandma (if they bring her in), and even Cat and Sansa on many levels, among others. Can we just leave it at that?  Women can be multi-dimensional/badass without being back-talkers running around with a knife.

Edited by hk47, 20 May 2012 - 01:18 PM.

[seikai]

hk47, on 20 May 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

GRRM has plenty of strong, independent women characters. The show has decided to make pretty much all of them that way, except for Sansa, who really was pretty strong in the books and is looking like a whiny idiot in the shows. Why does practically EVERY woman in the show have to be so strong-willed? Jeyne and Shae do NOT act that way. I guess the writers think it's more cool if every girl is a badass, but it's really unrealistic in the asoiaf world. We have whores threatening to gouge the eyes out of Tywin Lannister's brother and some spy Westerling girl from a rather poor noble family backtalking the king. Really? We have plenty of strong women already: Arya, Cersei, Dany, Margaery and her grandma (if they bring her in), and even Cat and Sansa on many levels, among others. Can we just leave it at that? Women can be multi-dimensional/badass without being back-talkers running around with a knife.

You pretty much summarized a huge pet peeve of mine. It's like the people who wrote Sansa's dialogue for the show completely missed the point. I can just see that the main point they got out of Sansa's part is "She's weak. She's annoying. She doesn't go around stabbing people and training to be an assassin like Arya - that means she's helpless and stupid." There are so many ways that women can be strong and badass characters - Sansa, in her own way, was strong and badass. She managed to STAY ALIVE in the middle of a place where even the slightest wrongdoing could potentially end with her head on a pike (Joffrey has already shown a lack of restraint - even Cersei and the negotiations for Jaime couldn't stop him if Sansa didn't tread carefully). It's the same with Jeyne. They feel the need to change her so she's this romantic comedy harpy (their idea of a "strong woman"), but in the books, she's a kind and supportive wife - which should be TOTALLY FINE. As for Shae... she was never supposed to be a strong woman. I don't know why they're doing this - I thought the whole point was that she was simple minded, and that lead to her betraying Tyrion for promises from Cersei.

Edited by seikai, 20 May 2012 - 12:39 PM.