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[Book Spoilers] Dagmer and...


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#21 Davos55

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 02:54 AM

I think at the end of the season, Ramsay (probably an extra with a helmet on) will kill Dagmer and this theory will forever be put to death.

#22 HouseLark

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 03:24 AM

If the Dagmer/Ramsey theory does turn out to be true there are going to be some backstory questions that demand answers. If we are to assume that Dagmer is Ramsey then we can only assume that he was sent by Roose to the Iron Islands to intercept Theon and persuade him into attacking Winterfell. If that's true, then besides the questions about why the other Iron Born aren't suspicious of Theon's mysterious lieutenant, the Lannister-Bolton-Frey plot starts to make no sense at all.

Bolton might have designs on the Warden of the North title but no other Northmen would seek to depose the Starks so they are utterly isolated. They only gain strength by allying with the Frey's, but the Frey's only defect once it becomes apparent that Robb has broken his vow to marry a Frey. That is the juncture at which opportunity presents itself to Roose Bolton and that would be the point when he moves people into a position to take Winterfell. If Dagmer is Ramsey then it would require us to assume that Roose Bolton set his plan in motion long before he even knew he would have the slightest possibility of carrying it through. Maybe Roose can see the future in TV GoT.

The one thing that I am now sure of is that Reek will not turn up until Theon takes on that persona. I don't think this will hurt the story, the Ramsey/Reek thing requires a lot of background to fully understand and it's now superfluous given that Dagmer is the one urging Theon to be a cruel and ruthless leader.

One issue is still outstanding: if Dagmer isn't Ramsey, how will the Bolton's take Winterfell? Theon could hold it against Ramsay's putative force of 300 with his own limited number of Iron Born. Maybe Luwin will open the gates to the Northmen thinking that they are liberators.

#23 Terminated

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 03:51 AM

He is older than Bolton (check actor age)
Ramsay is 'at the Dreadfort' (Ep6)

But I'm getting convinced that Talisa is actually Patchface

- two A's in each name
- we didn't see Patchface yet
- she knows stuff, so does Patch
- the fish of the Tully is brighter when bravoosi unicorns dance with Tywin

#24 Jayaris

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 04:09 AM

If this is the case I hope we get a prequel - Ramsay Snow and the Ironborn : Deep Cover

That is to say I think this idea is ludicrous and it would ruin the show for me.

Edited by Jayaris, 15 May 2012 - 04:09 AM.


#25 Michaelj

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 04:18 AM

I think dagmer has a hidden motive even if he isn't Ramsay.

#26 Jamie Lannister

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 06:03 AM

I think at the end of the season, Ramsay (probably an extra with a helmet on) will kill Dagmer and this theory will forever be put to death.


Agreed. It's a common way to set up a real bad guy: have him obliterate the one the audience thought was bad. Ramsay did it to Theon, and I could easily see Red Helm/Ramsay Snow doing it to Dagmer and Theon both.

As for Dagmer's motivation, can he not just be a bit of an immoral dick, taking Ironborn customs up to eleven? He's a veteran Ironborn raider, the way none of the others (including Black "I was reaving and raping while you were still in Balon's balls" Lorren) challenge him.

#27 House Snow

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 06:46 AM

Agreed. It's a common way to set up a real bad guy: have him obliterate the one the audience thought was bad. Ramsay did it to Theon, and I could easily see Red Helm/Ramsay Snow doing it to Dagmer and Theon both.

As for Dagmer's motivation, can he not just be a bit of an immoral dick, taking Ironborn customs up to eleven? He's a veteran Ironborn raider, the way none of the others (including Black "I was reaving and raping while you were still in Balon's balls" Lorren) challenge him.


I'm not so sure about that though, b/c the preview from the next episode suggest ASha is going to tell Theon he went too far even for an ironborn. Plus the show made a pretty big deal how hard it would be to take Winterfell 500 can keep out 10000 or something like that. Still kind of sounds like someone will let them in.

#28 Peasant Rebel Leader

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 07:06 AM

I was on this theory, but then they namedropped the Bastard of Bolton.

It is however true that Dagmer takes a lot of Ramsay's Characteristics from the books. He is the one to advise the killing of the Miller's Boys, he's the "bad" advice in Theon's ear. They needed to have someone like that, and since they didn't want to introduce Reek/Ramsay, an Ironborn had to take that role. They decided to name him Dagmer.

And that is all there is. Sometimes, some things are just what they seem to be!

All the indicators for the theory can be explained by having Dagmer taking over Reeks Advisor role, so why should there be more?

Edited by Peasant Rebel Leader, 15 May 2012 - 07:08 AM.


#29 Greywolf2375

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 07:07 AM

As has been said by others, I think they have merged characteristics and some plot/dialogue devices, but I am really hoping the two characters are separate. Maybe they can figure out a way to make it work IF they decided to go this route, but it'd be really disappointing if they did given some of the questions it would generate that would need major /handwaving to answer,

#30 White Harbors Wrath

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 07:14 AM

I was on this theory, but then they namedropped the Bastard of Bolton.

It is however true that Dagmer takes a lot of Ramsay's Characteristics from the books. He is the one to advise the killing of the Miller's Boys, he's the "bad" advice in Theon's ear. They needed to have someone like that, and since they didn't want to introduce Reek/Ramsay, an Ironborn had to take that role. They decided to name him Dagmer.

And that is all there is. Sometimes, some things are just what they seem to be!

All the indicators for the theory can be explained by having Dagmer taking over Reeks Advisor role, so why should there be more?


Why everyone didn't automatically assume this...and went flying right into the Ramger is an elite Ironborn infiltrating super spy theory is baffling. Theon needed the whispers in his ear and they didn't want to deal with another multi-season cast member a season too early. Seems pretty obvious.

#31 Mediumjon Umber

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 07:16 AM

Here's my theory: Ramsay is disguised as Rose.
Evidence:
  • We haven't seen Rose since Ramsay mentioned his bastard at the Dreadfort. Ergo, Ramsay is on his way back to the North.
  • Both Rose and Ramsay are Northeners.
  • Both names start with an R.
  • "Rose" is obviously a clever homage to Roose.
Clever, HBO, but it's still a predictable twist.

#32 eyeheartsansa

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 07:45 AM

We haven't seen Rose since Ramsay mentioned his bastard at the Dreadfort. Ergo, Ramsay is on his way back to the North.


yes we have!

#33 NeilSpoon

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 07:47 AM

No, I don't think Dagmer is Ramsay 'in disguise' - but I'm willing to entertain the idea they've merged some of Ramsay's actions and scenes into Dagmer's 'role' in the series that they didn't have time to portray in the series.

They will bring Ramsay in next season the way they are delaying some other characters as well. They've also moved up a few plots from the third book. This re-arranging is fine for the sake of filming and continuity, plus it would be hard to make an entire season only around the events of this one book. Merging the two books somewhat is a good idea since so much happens.


This seems spot on to me.

Ramsey being in Pike makes no sense

#34 Elaena Targaryen

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 08:46 AM

Well then can any of the nay sayers explain if he really is Dagmer then why does he not have a cleftjaw? What now, nothing to say? Mmm..M that's what I thought, you can't explain it can you? /spank.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':spank:' />


Seriously though I don't believe this theory, and it never crossed my mind, but I did wonder why they did not portray that Theon knows Dagmer and that's why he trusts him. It makes sense now that Dagmer is filling Ramsey's shoes because Theon did not know Reek/Ramsey and let Reek influence him down this dark path. It's keeping with Theon's character so Dagmer may not need any hidden agenda or hidden identity.

#35 HouseLark

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 09:45 AM

And that is all there is. Sometimes, some things are just what they seem to be!


Pff, this loser clearly doesn't know how the internet works! /bang.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':bang:' />

Here's a little primer: nothing is what it seems in anything, ever. Every detail must be pored over, analysed and re-analysed until someone calls someone else an idiot. How else do you think the R+L=J thread has got to it's 300th iteration with 2 million posts?

Seriously though, I agree with you. Dagmer probably just is what he appears to be; a massive vindictive prick who has seen a chance to gain influence with Balon Greyjoy's son.

#36 Mulled Wino

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:25 AM

If the Dagmer/Ramsey theory does turn out to be true there are going to be some backstory questions that demand answers. If we are to assume that Dagmer is Ramsey then we can only assume that he was sent by Roose to the Iron Islands to intercept Theon and persuade him into attacking Winterfell. If that's true, then besides the questions about why the other Iron Born aren't suspicious of Theon's mysterious lieutenant, the Lannister-Bolton-Frey plot starts to make no sense at all.

Bolton might have designs on the Warden of the North title but no other Northmen would seek to depose the Starks so they are utterly isolated. They only gain strength by allying with the Frey's, but the Frey's only defect once it becomes apparent that Robb has broken his vow to marry a Frey. That is the juncture at which opportunity presents itself to Roose Bolton and that would be the point when he moves people into a position to take Winterfell. If Dagmer is Ramsey then it would require us to assume that Roose Bolton set his plan in motion long before he even knew he would have the slightest possibility of carrying it through. Maybe Roose can see the future in TV GoT.

The one thing that I am now sure of is that Reek will not turn up until Theon takes on that persona. I don't think this will hurt the story, the Ramsey/Reek thing requires a lot of background to fully understand and it's now superfluous given that Dagmer is the one urging Theon to be a cruel and ruthless leader.

One issue is still outstanding: if Dagmer isn't Ramsey, how will the Bolton's take Winterfell? Theon could hold it against Ramsay's putative force of 300 with his own limited number of Iron Born. Maybe Luwin will open the gates to the Northmen thinking that they are liberators.


that or maybe it will happen after roose comes north...

I also agree that the reek story won't lose any tv appeal if the reek persona starts with theon.

#37 Mulled Wino

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:27 AM

Here's my theory: Ramsay is disguised as Rose.
Evidence:

  • We haven't seen Rose since Ramsay mentioned his bastard at the Dreadfort. Ergo, Ramsay is on his way back to the North.
  • Both Rose and Ramsay are Northeners.
  • Both names start with an R.
  • "Rose" is obviously a clever homage to Roose.
Clever, HBO, but it's still a predictable twist.


Who is Rose?

#38 Frumpus

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:28 AM

I'm sorry, but Dagmer = Ramsay is one of the worst theories of all time.

Just because a character has taken over some parts of a book character's role does not mean they are the same character. People need to realize that the tv show and the books are separate entities. If Ramsay even appears next season, he will be a shell of the character we all know and hate from the books, and there most certainly won't be a Theon ADwD storyline in later seasons (no Jeyne Poole + no Wyman Manderly + the idea that they can tell Alfie Allen to take a few years off = no Theon story).

#39 SerMixalot

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:30 AM

Who is Rose?



She sank the Titanic I think

#40 SerMixalot

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:30 AM

dagmar is simply a plot device for Theon to work around. He is the devil to Luwins angel. he will die at Ramsey's hand, it is known.