[Book Spoilers] Dagmer and...

[Werthead]

The actor playing Dagmer is 43. I don't know how old Michael McElhatton (who plays Roose) is but he could be in his late 50s, which makes it possible. Unlikely, but possible.

To be honest, the main reason I think some people want this to be true is that Ralph Ineson would actually make a brilliant Ramsay. Anyone familiar from his previous UK television and film work, where he has not infrequently played psychopaths and nutjobs, knows that he would absolutely kill it. But I have to agree, it is highly improbable.

[House Snow]

It would definitely take explaining. Devils advocate would say he only told Theon he was his first mate and noone else. The other thing is that I could have sworn

we see a scene in one of HBO making of videos (maybe the Theon one) where it looks like somone has let the troops into Winterfell along with flayed men statues on the wall with Theon looking like he expects it-as opposed to looking horrified. If that is the case who in the world let them in. I can't think of anyone besides Dagmer EDIT: Never mind I watched it again, those were the kids in the preview-so maybe its Yara coming to visit him

[mcb]

To be honest, the main reason I think some people want this to be true is that Ralph Ineson would actually make a brilliant Ramsay. Anyone familiar from his previous UK television and film work, where he has not infrequently played psychopaths and nutjobs, knows that he would absolutely kill it.

I did recognize him as Chris Finch, but didn't know about his other roles.

Still, Finchy was more or less the same caliber of an arsehole, fortunately without a sword.

[Michaelj]

It would definitely take explaining. Devils advocate would say he only told Theon he was his first mate and noone else. The other thing is that I could have sworn

we see a scene in one of HBO making of videos (maybe the Theon one) where it looks like somone has let the troops into Winterfell along with flayed men statues on the wall with Theon looking like he expects it-as opposed to looking horrified. If that is the case who in the world let them in. I can't think of anyone besides Dagmer

Hah unless Ramsay arrives at the gate and declares his undying loyalty towards Theon and Theon being the imbicille he is, says "Please come in!!!"

I'm interested in the link you saw this in btw? Its just I can't imagine HBO releasing that so early.

[House Snow]

I watched it again

what I thought were flayed men statues the first time around were actually the burned kids. Its from the House Greyjoy video where some horses came through the gate. ITs probably Yara's people so back to the drawing board.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I'm sorry, but Dagmer = Ramsay is one of the worst theories of all time.

Just because a character has taken over some parts of a book character's role does not mean they are the same character. People need to realize that the tv show and the books are separate entities. If Ramsay even appears next season, he will be a shell of the character we all know and hate from the books, and there most certainly won't be a Theon ADwD storyline in later seasons (no Jeyne Poole + no Wyman Manderly + the idea that they can tell Alfie Allen to take a few years off = no Theon story).

The ADWD story line will be meshed with AFFC because they run in tandem ( up to a point ) and the first Reek chapter would be very early in the timeline sequence. So Theon would really only be gone for season three but they could show scenes anyway, they have shown scenes for other characters that have not been in the books ( or off screen ), and they don't need to make us think he died to surprise us with Reek. Not to mention if Alfie/Theon is popular they can always change the storyline like they did for Dany, because Alfie Allen has done an amazing job it could happen.

[Isabella Stark]

To be honest, the main reason I think some people want this to be true is that Ralph Ineson would actually make a brilliant Ramsay. Anyone familiar from his previous UK television and film work, where he has not infrequently played psychopaths and nutjobs, knows that he would absolutely kill it. But I have to agree, it is highly improbable.

I've noticed British viewers getting excited to see Ineson. Which adds to my suspicions.

Unless Winterfell doesn't get sacked, Dagmar leaves with Yara, Dagmar survives the sack or there's some other major departure from the novel, he's dead by the end of the season. Seems a rather small role for this actor....

I rewatched the Theon meeting Dagmar scene, and I think it's suggestive.

- The crew comes out of a tavern/ inn (?) laughing about something.

- Close behind them is a cloaked figure who walks around the corner.

- The crew has no respect for Theon.

- Yara talks to Theon.

- While Yara is speaking with Theon, Dagmar comes around the corner from where the cloaked figure went. Something behind Theon in the general direction of Dagmar seems to catch Yara's eye, but I can't read her expression. She doesn't wave and say, "Hey Dagmar."

- Dagmar lingers in the tavern doorway until Yara leaves. Then he comes up and introduces himself as Theon's first mate.

- While they're talking, the crew are watching and laughing.

Perhaps Dagmar convinced the crew to pretend he's the first mate as a test/ joke on Theon to see if he's so dumb he doesn't realize his "first mate" isn't even an Iron Islander. (Or maybe he just bribed them.) And Theon fell for it.

I'll admit it's farfetched, but really, so's the book :)

[Ramsay Gimp]

I'll admit it's farfetched, but really, so's the book :)

How is what happens in the book far-fetched?

[Sir Cadogan]

What?

Perhaps Dagmar convinced the crew to pretend he's the first mate as a test/ joke on Theon to see if he's so dumb he doesn't realize his "first mate" isn't even an Iron Islander. (Or maybe he just bribed them.) And Theon fell for it.

Farfetched? It would be less impossible if the painted guy sailing past Valyria were Varys.

[EgoistMusketeer]

Hes Ramsay only in spirit

[HouseLark]

I've noticed British viewers getting excited to see Ineson. Which adds to my suspicions.

No, we get excited about seeing The Finch! He might be an arsehole but he's a bloody good rep.

[Little Miss Sunshine]

Guys, thanks for your answers and thoughts!

Personally I wouldn't want them to be the same person. For me it would be fine if they just merged some Ramsay's characteristics into Dagmer just to make the story run for a while until the bastard of Bolton arrives to Winterfell. I can be quite a book purist in some ways, so for me it would kinda ruin Reek's storyline.

Thanks for the ones who mentioned the age factor, very well pointed out. And, for what's it worth, I also don't like the "super spy" thing.

However, I wouldn't be surprised it HBO would do such a thing as to merge both characters into one. I wouldn't approve it, but it could be possible. And that's why I started the topic, just to share some thoughts. No need to classify it as "idiotic" or "ridiculous", or to be rude. It's not even a theory - only thoughts and doubts.

EDITED for grammar

[Winter's Lady]

Ramsay Snow - the same person?

After tonight's episode, the feeling some of us had that Dagmer and Ramsay Snow are gonna be one and the same person in TV series just got a lot bigger. Mostly due to the fact that he's taking Ramsay's role on suggesting to Theon that they fake the Bran's and Rickon's deaths.

Also, on the previous episode, Roose Bolton said to Robb that Ser Rodrik had been killed, however Maester Luwin sent the raven before Rodrik was beheaded. How could he have known that, then? (or was it just a sequence error?)

Thoughts, anyone? :)

This thought has crossed my mind too, it certainly is possible, Dagmer has taken over Ramsay's role for now, and he has the evil persona to go with it, but personally I don't think this will be the case.

I think Ramsay's casting was pushed to S3 for budget reasons and time restraints, but I hope we'll see him then (along with the Reeds and the Tullys, pwease?)

Roose told Robb about his bastard son, and sent him to Winterfell, and I also think Dagmer looks too old to be Roose's son.

As to the fact that Roose knew about Rodrik's death, didn't he say they've had other ravens, from White Harbor and whatnot? Maybe this information was in one of those letters? But as you said, most likely it's just a timeline error or simply something they didn't think of when filming. :)

[Jamie Lannister]

To be fair, Finchy was no Ramsay. :P He was, for lack of a better term, what we Brits call " a dickhead."

Plus, he threw a kettle over a pub. What's Ramsay ever done to match that kind of awesomeness?

[deleted01]

*le sigh* People let themselves down with bad manners and rudeness.

Yeah it's crossed my mind, and it's a suspicion I can't shake off, no matter how much I don't want it to be true. I just think they're giving Dagmer quite a big role (i.e., a lot of camera time) for someone who's going to disappear as soon as Ramsay arrives. We'll see. Nicely laid-out thoughts, LMS, I hope it wasn't a sequence error but maybe it was something as simple as that. We've learned to read into everything waaay too much ;)

Either way, I WANT MY REEK! :commie:

[Isabella Stark]

How is what happens in the book far-fetched?

Ramsey kidnaps, marries and then murders the recently-widowed Lady Hornwood; is then captured by Stark men and taken to Winterfell. While Ramsey is languishing in the Winterfell dungeon under the assumed identity of his deceased servant Reek, Theon seizes the castle, thereby giving Ramsey the opportunity to manipulate Theon and suggest he pretend to kill B & R, which leads to Robb's grief- prompted sex with Jeyne, then marriage to Jeyne, thereby betraying the Freys, which creates an opportunity for Roose to ally with the Lannisters, betray Robb and become Warden of the North.

Of course this is how the whole series works- one thing leading to another and improvising characters responding to what has come before. But, Ramsey was really lucky Theon decided to seize Winterfell.

I share Dracarya's impression that "they're giving Dagmer quite a big role (i.e., a lot of camera time) for someone who's going to disappear as soon as Ramsay arrives," so I'm just trying to see if this could work.

The main objection people seem to have is that Ramsey is "at the Dreadfort." How do we know that? Because Roose said so. What else is he going to say? Robb says he's going to march up to Winterfell and take it back. If he did that, Ramsey would be caught and lose Winterfell. So Roose talks Robb out of it and assures him that Ramsey will do it for him.

I agree there are also problems with (1) communication between Ramsey and Roose, but I'm not sure how much they need to communicate about these schemes and I feel like the show's been fudging that a bit already; and (2) Ramsey getting from place to place, but he could be using the same means of transportation as Littlefinger.

I guess we'll find out soon enough....

[Jayaris]

Ramsey kidnaps, marries and then murders the recently-widowed Lady Hornwood; is then captured by Stark men and taken to Winterfell. While Ramsey is languishing in the Winterfell dungeon under the assumed identity of his deceased servant Reek, Theon seizes the castle, thereby giving Ramsey the opportunity to manipulate Theon and suggest he pretend to kill B & R, which leads to Robb's grief- prompted sex with Jeyne, then marriage to Jeyne, thereby betraying the Freys, which creates an opportunity for Roose to ally with the Lannisters, betray Robb and become Warden of the North.

Of course this is how the whole series works- one thing leading to another and improvising characters responding to what has come before. But, Ramsey was really lucky Theon decided to seize Winterfell.

I share Dracarya's impression that "they're giving Dagmer quite a big role (i.e., a lot of camera time) for someone who's going to disappear as soon as Ramsay arrives," so I'm just trying to see if this could work.

The main objection people seem to have is that Ramsey is "at the Dreadfort." How do we know that? Because Roose said so. What else is he going to say? Robb says he's going to march up to Winterfell and take it back. If he did that, Ramsey would be caught and lose Winterfell. So Roose talks Robb out of it and assures him that Ramsey will do it for him.

I agree there are also problems with (1) communication between Ramsey and Roose, but I'm not sure how much they need to communicate about these schemes and I feel like the show's been fudging that a bit already; and (2) Ramsey getting from place to place, but he could be using the same means of transportation as Littlefinger.

I guess we'll find out soon enough....

Haha, Littlefinger transportation indeed would've certainly been required. The main reason I don't believe it is because I don't think :

- The Risk vs. Reward of having your son on a potentially pointless undercover mission is not logical

- Ramsay doesn't seem like the kind of person that would rather go undercover at the Iron Islands than spend his time at the Dreadfort raping/flaying people.

- Don't think there was any viable way to reach Iron Islands in time beyond Littlefinger teleportation.

The reason for Dagmer's camera time is because, if Dagmer wasn't established it's just Theon talking to himself and coming up with his own ideas. You can't have Dagmer as a non-entity and expect it to be believable when Theon takes his advice..

By having Dagmer meet Theon early and establish a relationship it helps to explain some of the abhorrent decisions that Theon makes.

D&D could doubtless spin some infeasible plot as to why Dagmer is Ramsay, but there's no actual chain of events that would make sense.

[TKO]

If this is the case I hope we get a prequel - Ramsay Snow and the Ironborn : Deep Cover

I would love this with some apocalypse now style voice over.

[Impish]

Also, on the previous episode, Roose Bolton said to Robb that Ser Rodrik had been killed, however Maester Luwin sent the raven before Rodrik was beheaded. How could he have known that, then?

Roose's line here is actually "We've had ravens from White Harbour, Barrowton, and the Dreadfort", so clearly he has his own sources of information and doesn't need to rely on Luwin to receive word of what's going on in Winterfell.

(Also, at Theon's command, Luwin sent additional ravens AFTER Rodrik's beheading, no reason he couldn't have snuck in an update for Robb & co)

[House Snow]

Ok here is a spitball. What if Dagmer was already in Robbs camp and Roose had him follow Theon on the same ship. Roose would certainly be in position to know about the mission. It would keep a hypothetical Dagmer/Ramsey from having to live in Pyke. In that case the plot question becomes is it feasible for him to be able to lie about being the first mate, after all to this point we haven't seen Dagme talk to anyone beside Theon and when he does in the presense of others it always seems to be an aside. Even when he told Theon to kill Rodrik, it was kind of a whisper. I don't thinks a total stretch when you consider in the original he was basically a spy in Winterfell who lied about being Reek. I'll admit I don't remember the book that well, but wouldn't some of the same questions about why Reek/Ramsey wasn't found out in Winterfell apply to a Dagmer/ramsey in Pyke.