[Book Spoilers] Dagmer and...
Posted 16 May 2012 - 07:32 PM
Posted 18 May 2012 - 03:02 AM
I don't buy the Dagmer = Ramsay idea for all the obvious reasons others have stated. It would be true clown shoes moment for the series if they somehow tried to contort things to fit such a scheme. On the other hand, Dagmer filling in some of the narrative gap for Ramsay being AWOL - sure that's obviously happening a bit.
Ramsay Snow - the same person?
But what did strike me is what some have brought up - from the very start Dagmer seems to stand apart from the rest of the ironborn, apart from everyone really except for Theon, who is the only person he communicates with on screen as far as I can remember. They really only show him when Theon is agonizing over a course of action. Attack the Stony Shore as commanded or feint at Torrhen's Square and take Winterfell, keep Ser Rodrik prisoner or execute him, keep searching for Bran and Rickon or kill the orphans in their place.
Don't laugh, but the comparison that leapt to my mind was Tyler Durden from fight club - that he is Theon's alter-ego as Durden was to the narrator (Ed Norton's character). The figurative devil sitting on his shoulder telling him to execute Ser Rodrik, kill the orphans, and leading him to the idea of taking Winterfell in the first place. Since you're seeing it from the narrator's insane point of view, it doesn't dawn on you right away that he's really the other half of the same person...
Ok, that would be a bit clown shoes as well - it's been done before (and not just by Fight Club). But it's still more sensible to me than Dagmer literally being Ramsay.
Edited by Wethers, 18 May 2012 - 03:03 AM.
Posted 18 May 2012 - 03:57 AM
Ok here is a spitball. What if Dagmer was already in Robbs camp and Roose had him follow Theon on the same ship. Roose would certainly be in position to know about the mission. It would keep a hypothetical Dagmer/Ramsey from having to live in Pyke. In that case the plot question becomes is it feasible for him to be able to lie about being the first mate, after all to this point we haven't seen Dagme talk to anyone beside Theon and when he does in the presense of others it always seems to be an aside. Even when he told Theon to kill Rodrik, it was kind of a whisper. I don't thinks a total stretch when you consider in the original he was basically a spy in Winterfell who lied about being Reek. I'll admit I don't remember the book that well, but wouldn't some of the same questions about why Reek/Ramsey wasn't found out in Winterfell apply to a Dagmer/ramsey in Pyke.
This is theoretically plausible if you ignore the Lady Hornwood story etc. - Which D&D would have no qualms about, now all that's left to do is to go through all of the camp scenes pre-Theon leaving and see if you can spot Dagmer in the background.
Edited by Jayaris, 18 May 2012 - 03:57 AM.
Posted 19 May 2012 - 07:24 AM
EDIT: You can see it clearly torn off on the farm scene. Coutesey of Ours is the Fury over at WIC.
Edited by House Snow, 19 May 2012 - 10:23 AM.
Posted 19 May 2012 - 09:13 AM
Posted 20 May 2012 - 03:21 AM
And i dont think this will work anyway
All the arguments for this are details that are by far missinterpreted or selfinduced theory plots
Ok he has a torn sigil on his armorplate ( though ironborns are armor-fobes, only victarion is the exception) does this mean he is ramsay? No it means that probably the armor was damaged during filming and didnt wasted some budget €$£ on refilming the scene with the armor repaired
Probably dagmer is asha spy or lover aka Qarl it would be making more sense
If D&D wants people not to lose their faith in GoT should quit making stuff up and daviate less from the books as they are well written,
ok maybe the pov chapters are not always action packed but we arent watching Spartacus to demand T&A and blood every episode.
Posted 20 May 2012 - 11:07 AM
Let's examine the arguments in favor:
- Dagmer is taking on the role of Reek
They need someone to be the devil on Theons shoulder, to keep him redeemable later on. After all, all the atrocities Theon commits weren't his own ideas, and that help us sympathise with him later. That, I believe, is the reason for Dagmer taking that role, not to set him up as Ramsay. Yes, if Dagmer does not become Ramsay, we will loose the irony of Theon being punished by Ramsay for the very acts he himself told him to commit, but I feel that is a minor loss, the impact of the torture on Theon will still be there.
- Roose knew Ser Rodrick was killed, and the raven was sent before that happened.
We don't see the ravens are being sent, so that is not conclusive. Anyway, the ravens Theon tells Maester Luwin to send are to his father and sister, not Robb/Roose. It is only logical that Luwin would try to send ravens to Robb and his bannermen as soon as possible to tell what has really happened. It's not because we haven't seen that that it can't have happened. I would say it is more likely than Dagmer sending a raven to Roose...
- Asha, who would have known him as not Ironborn, never met him (from the article dreamcatcher linked)
So, it has not been disproven that this theory is right, but that does certainly not mean that it is proven that it is right... After all, the other crewmembers are also in a good position to question Dagmer being there if he isn't someone they know already. After all, if they're unwilling to follow a captain they know to be their kings son, why would they follow a first mate they don't know at all?
- there is no other inside guy to betray Theon and let Ramsay's men in
There is no need for one. Yes, Winterfell can be held with as few as 500 men. Theon has nowhere near that number, that is why he needs his sister to bring them. Do you think he would ask for Yara's help if he didn't really need her? Ramsay's troops can just take the castle. The only reason Cassel didn't in the books was his daughter's head in a noose.
- There's a lot of screentime for Dagmer
see above, he is needed to be the devil on Theon's shoulder. The only screentime he gets is when he gives his advice and watches it unfold.
- We don't see Dagmer interact with the other Ironborn
Sure. That is because he is a minor character, needed only for his interactions with the major character, and the other Ironborn are little more than extras. I also assume his 'kissing the captain's ass' may not fall well with the crewmembers who would have preferred just ignoring him and doing what they wanted...
- TV Dagmer doesn't know Theon from childhood, like book Dagmer
I think that is just a bit of background that was cut. No point going into that relationship if it leads nowhere.
- There's no clear motivation for Dagmer to help Theon.
It could be he's just an ambitious man who sees the opportunity of helping the kings son out.
- They wouldn't cast that actor if he was to die at the end of the season
Euhm... Sean Bean, anyone?
Posted 20 May 2012 - 12:41 PM
i thought this aswell, but in the last episode, you can see Dagmer drag Luwin to see the charred bodies, while Theon is addressing the crowd. Also when Luwin says "what have you done", he is addressing Cletjaw.
I don't buy the Dagmer = Ramsay idea for all the obvious reasons others have stated. It would be true clown shoes moment for the series if they somehow tried to contort things to fit such a scheme. On the other hand, Dagmer filling in some of the narrative gap for Ramsay being AWOL - sure that's obviously happening a bit. But what did strike me is what some have brought up - from the very start Dagmer seems to stand apart from the rest of the ironborn, apart from everyone really except for Theon, who is the only person he communicates with on screen as far as I can remember. They really only show him when Theon is agonizing over a course of action. Attack the Stony Shore as commanded or feint at Torrhen's Square and take Winterfell, keep Ser Rodrik prisoner or execute him, keep searching for Bran and Rickon or kill the orphans in their place. Don't laugh, but the comparison that leapt to my mind was Tyler Durden from fight club - that he is Theon's alter-ego as Durden was to the narrator (Ed Norton's character). The figurative devil sitting on his shoulder telling him to execute Ser Rodrik, kill the orphans, and leading him to the idea of taking Winterfell in the first place. Since you're seeing it from the narrator's insane point of view, it doesn't dawn on you right away that he's really the other half of the same person... Ok, that would be a bit clown shoes as well - it's been done before (and not just by Fight Club). But it's still more sensible to me than Dagmer literally being Ramsay.
Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:15 AM
Posted 23 May 2012 - 02:09 AM
You didn't really watch the episode where he's introduced closesly. He solely appears when Yara and the cre are convieniently far away. He's the only one who claims to be First mate, and he's not at any point recognized by any of Theon's men. It's not far fetched that they simply see him as Theon's "dog" followin him around loyally.
Probably the single worst theory in the history of the internet...and this is the same internet slinging stuff around about Sopranos...some of that stuff was really out there... The idea that someone who: -is as old looking as his father -infiltrated Pyke to a degree/length of time that no other Iron Men questioned him being the first mate of the boat when they don't even respect their kings son enough to listen to him -in case Robb Stark decided to send Theon back to Pyke ...nvm...this cant be real...I'm almost convinced this is a trolling theory at this point.
In fact the entire scene he first appears in seems to suggest that he is just that, an outsider. Rather than someone who fits in on the Iron Islands.
He's the only one who says he's the first mate and makes sure not to mention it in front of any of the crew members. Characters on this show don't always tell the truth.
lol ^ I agree with you that there is no way that Ramsay and Dagmer could be the same person, its just too much of a stretch and I agree that it would take way too much time and guessing for Ramsay to go to pyke and somehow become a first mate on a possibility that Theon would go back there.
1. Disagree. It depends entirely on when he had his son. As he was a bastard the age gap doesn't have to be that large.
This guy argues Dagmar=Ramsey. http://www.tvequals....t-honor-review/ I sort of like the idea, because I really enjoyed Ramsey's switcharoo in the books and there really does seem to be something more to Dagmar. But I don't like it because (1) the actor seems to old to be Roose's son; and (2) it's not satisfactory that Ramsey would have established himself at Pyke early enough to pull this off. It also would suggest that Roose decided to betray Robb very early on; whereas I've always thought Roose was onboard with Robb as long as Robb was successful, and only decided to betray him when it began to appear that Robb would not succeed.
2. Like I've said earlier, nothing indicates he's established himself on Pyke.
I've had the feeling Roose always decided to betray Robb early on. This is simply a matter of opinions, though.
They have him on a 6 season contract, if I'm not mistaken. So they're gonna spread the torture scenes out over the seasons, I'd guess. Probably put in an escape attempt or something simmilar to make it extra interesting. Would fit what they''ve done with Dany's storyline.
I agree with the first part of your post, but as far as Alfie Allen not returning to play Reek/Theon in the ADwD Storyline, I don't think it's a done deal Other HBO series (most prominiently the Wire) placed popular characters on hiatus for a season or more at a time, and brought them back as the plot called for them. If D & D are as smart as I think they are, they see the benefit in having a fine actor like Allen breath life into one of the most intriguing characters in the ASOIAF universe and do whatever it takes to retain his services.
Roose isn't younger, actorwise. Ralph Ineson is born in 1969, while Roose is born somewhere around 1960 or before. Can't find an exact date. The people thinking he's younger are reading about the Irish footballer who shares his name.
Agreed. I was looking at the pictures and despite Roose being younger he looks about 55, while Dagmer looks early 30s to me.
Posted 24 May 2012 - 12:02 AM
Posted 24 May 2012 - 11:18 AM