[Book Spoilers] Dagmer and...
Posted 16 May 2012 - 07:32 PM
Posted 18 May 2012 - 03:02 AM
But what did strike me is what some have brought up - from the very start Dagmer seems to stand apart from the rest of the ironborn, apart from everyone really except for Theon, who is the only person he communicates with on screen as far as I can remember. They really only show him when Theon is agonizing over a course of action. Attack the Stony Shore as commanded or feint at Torrhen's Square and take Winterfell, keep Ser Rodrik prisoner or execute him, keep searching for Bran and Rickon or kill the orphans in their place.
Don't laugh, but the comparison that leapt to my mind was Tyler Durden from fight club - that he is Theon's alter-ego as Durden was to the narrator (Ed Norton's character). The figurative devil sitting on his shoulder telling him to execute Ser Rodrik, kill the orphans, and leading him to the idea of taking Winterfell in the first place. Since you're seeing it from the narrator's insane point of view, it doesn't dawn on you right away that he's really the other half of the same person...
Ok, that would be a bit clown shoes as well - it's been done before (and not just by Fight Club). But it's still more sensible to me than Dagmer literally being Ramsay.
Edited by Wethers, 18 May 2012 - 03:03 AM.
Posted 18 May 2012 - 03:57 AM
This is theoretically plausible if you ignore the Lady Hornwood story etc. - Which D&D would have no qualms about, now all that's left to do is to go through all of the camp scenes pre-Theon leaving and see if you can spot Dagmer in the background.
Edited by Jayaris, 18 May 2012 - 03:57 AM.
Posted 19 May 2012 - 07:24 AM
EDIT: You can see it clearly torn off on the farm scene. Coutesey of Ours is the Fury over at WIC.
Edited by House Snow, 19 May 2012 - 10:23 AM.
Posted 19 May 2012 - 09:13 AM
Posted 20 May 2012 - 03:21 AM
And i dont think this will work anyway
All the arguments for this are details that are by far missinterpreted or selfinduced theory plots
Ok he has a torn sigil on his armorplate ( though ironborns are armor-fobes, only victarion is the exception) does this mean he is ramsay? No it means that probably the armor was damaged during filming and didnt wasted some budget €$£ on refilming the scene with the armor repaired
Probably dagmer is asha spy or lover aka Qarl it would be making more sense
If D&D wants people not to lose their faith in GoT should quit making stuff up and daviate less from the books as they are well written,
ok maybe the pov chapters are not always action packed but we arent watching Spartacus to demand T&A and blood every episode.
Posted 20 May 2012 - 11:07 AM
Let's examine the arguments in favor:
- Dagmer is taking on the role of Reek
They need someone to be the devil on Theons shoulder, to keep him redeemable later on. After all, all the atrocities Theon commits weren't his own ideas, and that help us sympathise with him later. That, I believe, is the reason for Dagmer taking that role, not to set him up as Ramsay. Yes, if Dagmer does not become Ramsay, we will loose the irony of Theon being punished by Ramsay for the very acts he himself told him to commit, but I feel that is a minor loss, the impact of the torture on Theon will still be there.
- Roose knew Ser Rodrick was killed, and the raven was sent before that happened.
We don't see the ravens are being sent, so that is not conclusive. Anyway, the ravens Theon tells Maester Luwin to send are to his father and sister, not Robb/Roose. It is only logical that Luwin would try to send ravens to Robb and his bannermen as soon as possible to tell what has really happened. It's not because we haven't seen that that it can't have happened. I would say it is more likely than Dagmer sending a raven to Roose...
- Asha, who would have known him as not Ironborn, never met him (from the article dreamcatcher linked)
So, it has not been disproven that this theory is right, but that does certainly not mean that it is proven that it is right... After all, the other crewmembers are also in a good position to question Dagmer being there if he isn't someone they know already. After all, if they're unwilling to follow a captain they know to be their kings son, why would they follow a first mate they don't know at all?
- there is no other inside guy to betray Theon and let Ramsay's men in
There is no need for one. Yes, Winterfell can be held with as few as 500 men. Theon has nowhere near that number, that is why he needs his sister to bring them. Do you think he would ask for Yara's help if he didn't really need her? Ramsay's troops can just take the castle. The only reason Cassel didn't in the books was his daughter's head in a noose.
- There's a lot of screentime for Dagmer
see above, he is needed to be the devil on Theon's shoulder. The only screentime he gets is when he gives his advice and watches it unfold.
- We don't see Dagmer interact with the other Ironborn
Sure. That is because he is a minor character, needed only for his interactions with the major character, and the other Ironborn are little more than extras. I also assume his 'kissing the captain's ass' may not fall well with the crewmembers who would have preferred just ignoring him and doing what they wanted...
- TV Dagmer doesn't know Theon from childhood, like book Dagmer
I think that is just a bit of background that was cut. No point going into that relationship if it leads nowhere.
- There's no clear motivation for Dagmer to help Theon.
It could be he's just an ambitious man who sees the opportunity of helping the kings son out.
- They wouldn't cast that actor if he was to die at the end of the season
Euhm... Sean Bean, anyone?
Posted 20 May 2012 - 12:41 PM
Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:15 AM
Posted 23 May 2012 - 02:09 AM
In fact the entire scene he first appears in seems to suggest that he is just that, an outsider. Rather than someone who fits in on the Iron Islands.
2. Like I've said earlier, nothing indicates he's established himself on Pyke.
I've had the feeling Roose always decided to betray Robb early on. This is simply a matter of opinions, though.
Posted 24 May 2012 - 12:02 AM
Posted 24 May 2012 - 11:18 AM