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The kinslayer is accursed in the eyes of gods and men. (Book spoilers)


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#1 Jamie Lannister

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 06:29 AM

What do you think? Was butchering Alton a step too far, even for the amoral Jaime? I mean, the kid had just poured his heart out to him, saying it was the best day of his life when Jaime took him to squire. And then... crunch. And again. And again. And again...

I don't know. I wouldn't put it past him, but still... that was brutal. He smashed the poor kid's head in, and they write it off like it doesn't even happen to get back into pseudo-book canon mode for the Cat and Brienne scene. Eh. I found it pretty jarring, and assuming they're going to be trying to make him more sympathetic in S3, that murder will be one hell of a specter. How is that not worse than what he did to Bran?

Good scene, though. I wasn't expecting the sheer brutality, but still.

#2 Catastrophe

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 08:27 PM

What do you think? Was butchering Alton a step too far, even for the amoral Jaime?


Yes. He never did anything close to that bad in the books. Also, the fact that he didn't even seem shaken by it makes him seem like a complete sociopath. The book Jaime was at least capable of feeling guilt.

#3 All-for-Joffrey

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:02 PM

Yes. He never did anything close to that bad in the books. Also, the fact that he didn't even seem shaken by it makes him seem like a complete sociopath. The book Jaime was at least capable of feeling guilt.


You don't think pushing a 7 year old kid out a window is as bad as that (that's not a criticism, I'm legitimately curious)?

What he did to Jory and Ned's guards was pretty awful and senseless too (although I agree what he did in that scene is even worse, I'm not sold on it being worse than the defenestration of Bran though).

ETA: Regarding him not feeling guilt or being shaken by it, I'm pretty sure that's how he is in the books too. Even in the third book, when we finally get into his head, I don't recall any sort of guilt or remorse developing in until a little over halfway through, after he loses his hand and goes through all that crap with Brienne in Harrenhall. He seems like a complete sociopaith because he is one and I think that scene portrayed him very well.

Edited by All-for-Joffrey, 14 May 2012 - 09:06 PM.


#4 Ser Giant

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:06 PM

It was awful. I he had stopped smashing the kid's face after blow 2 or 3 it wouldnt have been so bad. Apparently he is some crazed maniac all of a sudden. The only truly terrible decision made this season imo.

#5 House Snow

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:24 PM

If Jaimie is a kinslayer then so is Robb.

#6 Envie

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:28 PM

I don't think the act itself was beyond Jaime's capability or moral standing considering all of the other things he's done and will do... however, the brutality felt a little gratuitous to me considering the same thing could have played out if he just knocked the kid out and made some noise to cause the guard to come running in for the same reason if he just wanted an escape. Going to such brutal extremes wasn't really necessary and felt contrived.

Overall I love Jaime's lines in the scene and the exposition was good. My guess is they put that in there for shock effect.

#7 Kittykatknits

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:45 PM

I am a bit worried about what that scene means for Jaime in the future. In the same episode, Tyrion and Cersei have a convesation about Joff where she states he looks like Jaime and talks about the Targ madness. I am wondering if they are going to paint Jaime as a darker, more evil character in the show to help explain Joff a bit better. Cersei has been made a milder character so it seems possible they will do the opposite with Jaime. If this happens, and I really hope I am wrong, it will be really disappointing. Jaime is one of my favorite characters and I've been looking forward to his scenes all season.

#8 Hear Us Roar

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:49 PM

He threw bran out a window without a moment's thought, some random distant relative is of no consequence. I think his need to escape was more dire on the show In the books his first escape was from a nice room with all the luxuries. In the show he is covered in shit and is dragged from camp for months. In this new situation he would have totally done it.

#9 _Oberyn_

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:14 PM

ETA: Regarding him not feeling guilt or being shaken by it, I'm pretty sure that's how he is in the books too. Even in the third book, when we finally get into his head, I don't recall any sort of guilt or remorse developing in until a little over halfway through, after he loses his hand and goes through all that crap with Brienne in Harrenhall. He seems like a complete sociopaith because he is one and I think that scene portrayed him very well.


Not realy. He had a chance to abandon/kill Brienne when she was in the water after the boat chase.

#10 Catastrophe

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:24 PM

You don't think pushing a 7 year old kid out a window is as bad as that (that's not a criticism, I'm legitimately curious)?

What he did to Jory and Ned's guards was pretty awful and senseless too (although I agree what he did in that scene is even worse, I'm not sold on it being worse than the defenestration of Bran though).


No, I don't think either of those things were as bad. Jaime pushed Bran out the window because he and his family's lives were at stake. If Robert had found out the truth he would've had Jaime and Cersei executed, and may even have killed their children as well. I'm not saying that what Jaime did was right, but he at least had a very good reason for what he did.

As for killing Jory and Ned's guards, his own brother had just been kidnapped, he was in an uncontrollable rage, and the Starks were on the verge of war with the Lannisters. As horrible as it is, killing an enemy's bannermen seems to be standard Westerosi behavior, so what he did wasn't even that out of the ordinary.

IMO neither of these compare to Jaime killing Alton in cold blood.

#11 tfoxx22

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:35 PM

I'm thinking this scene was just to remind the audience of what Jamie is capable of and to what extent he is willing to go to save himself or his immediate family. I mean he has been in a cage the whole season.

#12 WeirwoodTreeHugger

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:36 PM

Is kinslaying ever clearly defined in the books? My impression was that it applied to parents, children and siblings but not neccesarily cousins. This rule is practicality masked as religion I think. Things would be pretty chaotic if family members were constantly killing each other for the inheiritance.

#13 Mad Queen

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:37 PM

I'm still trying to decide if killing Alton was actually worse than Jaime's other crimes or we just think so now because it's a new thing and we are used to his other crimes. In any case, it was unnecessary and the way it played out was obviously for shock effect (first bond with, then kill relative brutally).

#14 Catastrophe

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:42 PM

After thinking about it, I think I realized what my problems with this scene are.

It's not the Kinslaying part that bothers me, since Alton is a distant relative anyway. It's the fact that Jaime killed someone who was on his side, and someone who idolized him at that! Even it had just been a random Lannister soldier with no blood relation to him, it would've bothered me just as much. In the books, Jaime is utterly devoted to his family and his House, almost everything he does is for them. In the TV show, he seems to only be out for himself.

Also, I didn't like that Jaime committed premeditated murder, luring Alton in like a serial killer and then showing no remorse afterwards. In the books his crimes were always acts of passion. I always got the sense that attempting to kill Bran was literally Jaime's worst action, something he did in a spontaneous act of desperation and fear. It was him at his lowest. Same goes for killing Jory, it was an unthinking act of rage at a time when he feared for his brother's life. I didn't think of him as a horrible person, I thought of him as a once-noble man who did a few horrible- but not unforgivable- things. In the show, it seems like he's just a murderer through and through, and this is just par for the course for him.

IMO this version of Jaime never would've killed Aerys. He would've gotten on his horse, ridden far away from King's Landing, and watched the fireworks from a distant hilltop before running back to Casterly Rock.

Edited by Catastrophe, 14 May 2012 - 10:42 PM.


#15 Gemini

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:14 PM

^agreed

It doesn't bother me at all that it was a relative. It's the underhanded, scheming way he did it. That just isn't Jaime.

On top of that, Jaime's worst crimes have always been committed for the sake of others, whether it was Bran (his sister), Jory and company (his brother), or Aerys (the realm). This was utterly selfish and rather pointless, and I just don't buy that Jaime would do it.

#16 Stannis Iron Baratheon

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:36 AM

I think it was done to enphisize his redemption in later seasons. And in his deffence, i would do the same thing.

#17 Onion Smuggler

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 05:04 AM

I think it was done to enphisize his redemption in later seasons. And in his deffence, i would do the same thing.

I think they'll be even less sympathy for him now. There can be no redemption for his TV actions really.

I think it was in interesting decision, not least because I thought Alton was meant to be Cleos Frey, so it's just going to be Brienne and Jamie who escape now. It's made him seem even more ruthless and sociopathic than he is in the books. I'd be interested to know what non book readers opinions of him are in later seasons.

#18 SerMixalot

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 06:04 AM

i dont buy his motivations. He is an extremely valuable prisoner. he has to know he is going to be traded back at some point. An escape makes that far less likely, especially when killing nobles.

i know he attempts an escape in the book, but that escape seems to have at least have had a chance of working. He is covered in shit in the middle of a camp of 15k soldiers. Yes escaping from a castle is different but in some ways easier if you have the element of surprise and mummers faking voices.

I suppose that is a relatively meaningless difference in the logic of TV world but still...

Edited by SerMixalot, 15 May 2012 - 06:06 AM.


#19 Bambi

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 06:15 AM

The scene really surprised me, Jaime's brutality was an unneccesary change from the books i think. Someone mentioned him as sociopath above, HBO-Jaime is really gets to look something like that, and i dislike it.

#20 Giskard Reventlov

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 06:22 AM

In the books he start his path to redemption after he loses his hand.

Maybe they wanted to emphasize his narcissism and disregard for all others (except Cersei) before S3.