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The kinslayer is accursed in the eyes of gods and men. (Book spoilers)


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#41 Mulled Wino

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:14 PM

The difference is that killing Bran was to protect Cersei, to kill Cleo he was just trying to escape captivity, captivity which he believed would eventually end


obviously he wasn't enjoying the captivity.

he killed a CHILD, so what if it was to protect cesei, that was his SISTER, that he was FUCKING.

and as was brought up earlier, had not even a small tinge of remorse which means he's a psychopath.

#42 Bride of Winter

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 03:32 PM

I don't like the excuse that this is for the redemption arc. his 'redemption arc' in the book was effective partially because you're seeing him through his point of view, and know he's feeling remorse. if the show viewers see him getting along with brienne, giving brienne the sword and telling her to find sansa, and settling the seige on Riverrun somewhat civilly, they're not going to stop and think "wow what a complete 180!"

without seeing things through his POV, recognizing his change on the show would have been nearly impossible before, and that's with Bran and Jory and everything. watching him kill a kid for shits and giggles isn't going to emphasize his arc. it's just going to make it even more pointless.

Edited by Bride of Winter, 15 May 2012 - 03:33 PM.


#43 mcb

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 06:11 PM

really? to escape sitting in your own flith and likely death or torture? jamie hardly knows this kid.


What likely death? What likely torture? They weren't out for his blood until after he had killed his cousin and Lord Karstark's son. It would be more dangerous for him to successfully escape than to simply remain in his cage.

#44 imladolen

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 07:14 PM

Shoving Bran out the window was a pretty horrible thing. People may rationalize it, using his "the things I do for love" quote as a sign he did it for Cersei, but we don't really know what he was thinking at the time.


What Jaime did pushing Bran out the window did more than just protect him and Cersei; it protected the lives of his three children.

I'm sorry, but anyone who wouldn't do anything to protect the lives of their 3 children and the kids' mother, even if it meant killing another man's child doesn't truly love their children. I would even say that person does not deserve having children if they would let their own kids die for the sake of one child of another person. Blood comes first.

I don't have a kid myself, but I have a precious 6 year old niece. If saving her life meant I had to kill another kid, you better well damned believe that other kid is a goner. Sorry, but my blood, those I love, comes WAY before anyone else.

It is beyond doubt that if Bran had told Ned and later King Robert about what he had seen in the tower, it would have meant five lives lost (Tommen, Myrcella, Joffrey, Cersei and yes Jaime). Is Bran's life any more valuable than Myrcella's or Tommen's? No, it isn't. All life is valuable and equal, but two lives (let alone 5) is more valuable than one.

Edited by imlad, 15 May 2012 - 07:15 PM.


#45 Ser Elfor the Landstander

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 08:34 PM

What Jaime did pushing Bran out the window did more than just protect him and Cersei; it protected the lives of his three children.

I'm sorry, but anyone who wouldn't do anything to protect the lives of their 3 children and the kids' mother, even if it meant killing another man's child doesn't truly love their children. I would even say that person does not deserve having children if they would let their own kids die for the sake of one child of another person. Blood comes first.

I don't have a kid myself, but I have a precious 6 year old niece. If saving her life meant I had to kill another kid, you better well damned believe that other kid is a goner. Sorry, but my blood, those I love, comes WAY before anyone else.

It is beyond doubt that if Bran had told Ned and later King Robert about what he had seen in the tower, it would have meant five lives lost (Tommen, Myrcella, Joffrey, Cersei and yes Jaime). Is Bran's life any more valuable than Myrcella's or Tommen's? No, it isn't. All life is valuable and equal, but two lives (let alone 5) is more valuable than one.


I don't have a kid either, so it's hard for me to imagine that situation. But I do have a problem with putting values in people's lives.

For example, why should a kinslayer be treated differently than a "normal" murderer? Just because the victim is related to the murderer, their death is more meaningful for some reason. Murder is already the worst thing a person can do, everything else is just excess. I know this has little to do with your post, but it got me thinking.

On a related note, I'm not sure I'd kill to save my loved ones. I would gladly die for them, but taking someone else's life is a line I can't cross. Of course, this is an entirely personal matter. And highly speculative. Who knows what the future might bring.

#46 teemo

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 08:45 PM

Well, Jaime can be very cruel and brutal, but... I can't imagine him having a long, sweet conversation with a family member that idolizes him and then brutally murder him. Especially when Jaime isn't even getting anything out of it. I don't get it.

Edited by hk47, 15 May 2012 - 08:46 PM.


#47 Darth Pipes

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 09:44 PM

I don't think Jaime before he lost his hand was above kinslaying. I can see him doing it if it was to protect Cersei for instance. This is a guy who pushed a child out a window and admitted to Ilyn Payne that if he had gotten to Arya Stark after the direwolf incident, he would have killed her. I don't think Jaime is above this kind of action if he could justify it. He wanted to escape and get back to Cersei. I do agree the brutality was over-the-top.

#48 wolverine

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:02 PM

What Jaime did pushing Bran out the window did more than just protect him and Cersei; it protected the lives of his three children.

I'm sorry, but anyone who wouldn't do anything to protect the lives of their 3 children and the kids' mother, even if it meant killing another man's child doesn't truly love their children. I would even say that person does not deserve having children if they would let their own kids die for the sake of one child of another person. Blood comes first.

I don't have a kid myself, but I have a precious 6 year old niece. If saving her life meant I had to kill another kid, you better well damned believe that other kid is a goner. Sorry, but my blood, those I love, comes WAY before anyone else.

It is beyond doubt that if Bran had told Ned and later King Robert about what he had seen in the tower, it would have meant five lives lost (Tommen, Myrcella, Joffrey, Cersei and yes Jaime). Is Bran's life any more valuable than Myrcella's or Tommen's? No, it isn't. All life is valuable and equal, but two lives (let alone 5) is more valuable than one.


You are fucking scary. To so casually talk about killing children to protect others is frightening. It is not like the headsman axe was falling on these 5 peoples heads if he did not shove Bran out the window. This is a completely hypothetical situation, but I would be a little scared to be around you if you think it would be so easy to kill a child because it MIGHT save the life of a child you care more about.

You see the bolded word there? He shoved a kid out a window because he might have told his father what he saw. Bran was like 8 in the books they could have potentially lied to him in the books or done something other than kill him. They could have lied to everyone else about what Bran thought he saw. No one there had any reason to suspect them of incest at that point, why would they believe an 8 year old boy, if he could not be frightened or fooled into silence?


ETA: You don't truly love your children if you are not willing to kill other children. That is some sick logic. Do you realize you also contradict yourself? You say blood comes first and someone doesn't deserve to have children if they won't kill other children, then you finish up by saying all life is valuable and equal?

Edited by wolverine, 15 May 2012 - 11:09 PM.


#49 Alboin

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 03:57 AM

The guy was sitting chained in his own piss and shit for what? Months, at least weeks (I know there are ppl here who will tell us how much time it was by minute)... He could loose a lot of moral obligations by that time, if he had any. He was acting brutal not like in the middle of a good day on his terrase in Lannisport, but at the deepest bottom of desperatiom. I'm not sayiing this gives him an excuse, I'm saying that is why he was acting like that.

Edited by Alboin, 16 May 2012 - 04:35 AM.


#50 mcb

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 04:08 AM

What Jaime did pushing Bran out the window did more than just protect him and Cersei; it protected the lives of his three children.


By his own admission, he couldn't care less for their children.

#51 Gryz

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 05:25 AM

The sad thing about a scene like this one is that it actually tells me that nothing matters.

When reading the books, we pay attention to the smallest details. So we can understand the story. But also to try to understand the characters. Where is each one on the scale from good to evil ? What can we expect from a character in the future ? Do I like him or her, or not ? As the books are so big, and have so much detail, and took so many years to write, I thought that everything had meaning.

And now suddenly we learn that the details don't matter. Consistency doesn't matter. The characters are changed, just like that. Some characters suddenly seem friendlier, others become evil. The whole struggle of Jaime (he pushed Bran early on, but since then, we learn he's actually not that bad) suddenly changes to "he's a full-on bastard after all". And as GRRM is involved in the tv-series, I feel like he's telling me: "you're a dumbass paying so much attention to detail, and investing emotionally into my fake characters".

Just like Tywin. He was one of my favorite characters in tv-series season 1. While reading the books I always had some respect for him. As the tough but just leader of one of the great houses. The fact he died with a whore in his bed ruined a lot for me. But what's happening in the tv-series now in Harrenhal really destroys the image I had of him. How can he be so stupid to not realize who Arya is ?

I watched the season-1 tv-series first. Then I read all the books. Now I'm thinking maybe I shouldn't watch the tv-series anymore.

Edited by Gryz, 16 May 2012 - 05:28 AM.


#52 mcb

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 05:34 AM

And now suddenly we learn that the details don't matter. Consistency doesn't matter. The characters are changed, just like that. Some characters suddenly seem friendlier, others become evil. The whole struggle of Jaime (he pushed Bran early on, but since then, we learn he's actually not that bad) suddenly changes to "he's a full-on bastard after all". And as GRRM is involved in the tv-series, I feel like he's telling me: "you're a dumbass paying so much attention to detail, and investing emotionally into my fake characters".


Yes, the show tells a slightly different story than the books. You didn't notice until now?

I watched the season-1 tv-series first. Then I read all the books. Now I'm thinking maybe I shouldn't watch the tv-series anymore.


It certainly isn't mandatory.

#53 Gryz

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 06:32 AM

Yes, the show tells a slightly different story than the books. You didn't notice until now?

What do you think ?
You didn't understand a word of what I've written.

I'm not complaining that the tv-series is different from the books.
It's a different medium. Other ways of telling the same story will work better.

What I don't like is when some of the base characteristics of the characters are changed. If somebody is complaining that Tywin smiles once in the tv-series, while he never smiles in the books, I don't care. But if Tywin suddenly becomes this friendly dancing singing cheerful character, that tells jokes and gives candy to little kids, then yes, I got a problem with that. Right now, I find the Tywin from the series getting more and more different from the books. And the story about Jaime in the books is that we knew nothing about him in the first book, but after that he actually became a much nicer person. If the tv-series lets Jamie slaughter a few more kids, that whole story-line from the books is going to be much less believable.

#54 theMountainGoat

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 07:00 AM

I know there are ppl here who will tell us how much time it was by minute

191 days x 24 x 60 = 275040 minutes

Approximately.

#55 mcb

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 08:13 AM

What do you think ?
You didn't understand a word of what I've written.

I'm not complaining that the tv-series is different from the books.
It's a different medium. Other ways of telling the same story will work better.

What I don't like is when some of the base characteristics of the characters are changed.


As I wrote: "the show tells a slightly different story than the books". By which I meant: "the show tells a slightly different story than the books". And yes, the characters, too, are slightly different from their counterparts in the books: Dany, Cersei, Tywin, Jaime, Robb, Jon, Shae... I'm amazed it took you this long to notice.

#56 Darth Pipes

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 08:19 AM

I know this line was in the show but didn't Book Jaime once boost to Cersei that he would kill everyone until he and his sister were the only two left alive in the world?

#57 Ser Giant

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:30 AM

That's gonna take awhile if he smashs all their faces 10 times. How many people live in this awesome world GRRM created? That's a lot of face smashs, I think a golden hand may be required!

#58 Mulled Wino

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:04 AM

What likely death? What likely torture? They weren't out for his blood until after he had killed his cousin and Lord Karstark's son. It would be more dangerous for him to successfully escape than to simply remain in his cage.


Maybe I just dreamed it, but didn't jamie himself say that he is a bad prisoner? He no longer wanted to be a prisoner?

you don't think maybe jamie was worried that something in the war could happen that might cause his death or torture that he had no control over? that tend to happen in wars

#59 Mulled Wino

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:06 AM

What Jaime did pushing Bran out the window did more than just protect him and Cersei; it protected the lives of his three children.

I'm sorry, but anyone who wouldn't do anything to protect the lives of their 3 children and the kids' mother, even if it meant killing another man's child doesn't truly love their children. I would even say that person does not deserve having children if they would let their own kids die for the sake of one child of another person. Blood comes first.

I don't have a kid myself, but I have a precious 6 year old niece. If saving her life meant I had to kill another kid, you better well damned believe that other kid is a goner. Sorry, but my blood, those I love, comes WAY before anyone else.

It is beyond doubt that if Bran had told Ned and later King Robert about what he had seen in the tower, it would have meant five lives lost (Tommen, Myrcella, Joffrey, Cersei and yes Jaime). Is Bran's life any more valuable than Myrcella's or Tommen's? No, it isn't. All life is valuable and equal, but two lives (let alone 5) is more valuable than one.


here's another one that hasn't read the books. jamie doesn't give a shit about his kids. so the rest of your post is void

him not caring about his kids also is a bit sociopathic.

Edited by Mulled Wino, 16 May 2012 - 10:07 AM.


#60 Stanmore

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:16 AM

I watched the season-1 tv-series first. Then I read all the books. Now I'm thinking maybe I shouldn't watch the tv-series anymore.


I'm starting to feel the same way. I realy enjoyed season 1, but the books were so much more interesting, Now i watch season two and find myself enjoying it a lot less and i don't know if it's because i'm being too much of a purist or if it's because the changes the show makes really are worse than whats in the books.

I keep watching the show because i've become obsessed with this world Martin has created, but on the other hand the pointless changes like this are really starting to piss me off.. It's not that it was a bad scene, because it wasn't, it just didn't fit with the view I have of Jaime's character, and i'm worried about the long term effect it's going to have on his arc.