The kinslayer is accursed in the eyes of gods and men. (Book spoilers)

[SerMixalot]

What I got from that exchange was that Alton wasn't Genna's son as in the books. When Alton defends his mum's weight gain, Jaime's like "no there's only one fat lady lannister" which I took to mean "if you're not certain it's her than she's not fat enough to be fat lady lannister." I thought it was a subtle nod to book readers that Alton's relationship to Jaime in the show isn't the same as Cleos' relation to Jaime in the books.

I'll have to watch again, you may be right.

[Sixshells]

I think that, the way he is described, book-Jaime has about the emotional maturity of a teenager while being a 30-something in age, which explains some of his sociopathic tendencies because, let's face it, teens often exhibit such tendencies before maturing. Even his bragging about killing the whole world except him and Cercei has a childish ring to it. Trying to kill Bran had little to do with protecting Cercei and his children, it's something he did because that's what he thought she wanted, not even because he thought it would protect her. Before his "redemption" his children are a non-entity to him, he doesn't see himself as a father nor does Cercei allow him to think himself as that, so he doesn't care what would happen to them nor does he think of protecting them when he pushes Bran down.

IMO, his "redemption arc" is less about actual redemption than about for him to grow as a person. He has to suffer consequences of his actions and harsh situations; in AFFC he has to learn to command and take responsibilities, when he has always be under the orders of other people; the people he respected are not there anymore; the circumstances of the death of the father he feared make him doubt his character; the loss of his hand, crippling him, made him question what he was; the loss of Cercei as the anchor of his affection; he grows fatherly concerns about Tommen and the way he is raised, etc. I don't think he will necessarily come out of this personal journey a much better person, but he will probably be more well-rounded, or get increasingly cynical. But even before that, he was not more bad than the next person I would think.

Which is why I think it's out of character for book-Jaime to kill Alton in cold blood when he could have done differently to escape. He could have beaten him up, or told him to fake illness and help him overpower the guard. I don't see him killing a member of his family, even extended, so gratuitously and in cold blood, because of the way he was raised. In other circumstances, for example if he were to be between him and the escape in the heat of action, sure. But not if they can do otherwise.

I think the only reason the writers killed Alton is because they had settled for the good old "faking illness" way of escaping, and they tried to sex it up and make it look less cheesy by having Jaime actually kill Alton. It certainly adds a shock factor, but it doesn't make the tactic less cliché, AND it's out of character, both for book Jaime but also the TV version, who is a bit "nicer" to begin with.

[CrypticWeirwood]

If Jaimie is a kinslayer then so is Robb.

Of course he was. That’s why Robb lost his head.

[CrypticWeirwood]

I think that, the way he is described, book-Jaime has about the emotional maturity of a teenager while being a 30-something in age, which explains some of his sociopathic tendencies because, let's face it, teens often exhibit such tendencies before maturing.

That’s not so at all. If a teen is a budding sociopath, then simple “maturing” isn’t going to fix it. Only dramatic and very serious intervention has any hope of averting their path, and even that hope is a thin one.

Good kids don’t turn into budding sociopaths when they’re adolescents, then go back to being decent people again after that. Being a teenager is no excuse for being a monster. Most teens are sensitive, decent human beings.

[Sixshells]

Well, yes, but even good children and teens need to mature to be well-rounded adults, and it's really not uncommon for adults to to be psychologically unhealthy because they were unable to do that, and I think that's the case for Jaime. My point wasn't that teens turn into budding sociopaths, but rather that some traits not uncommon in the young would be associated with anti-social behaviour in adults, like egocentrism, lack of empathy or responsibility, which is normal because children and teens are still in the process of being socialised. The fact that Jaime shows such a degree of immaturity shows he is indeed psychologicaly imbalanced, but the fact that he can begin to work on that and seems able to experience some remorse points to him not being a full-blown psychopath and his condition being more linked to the fact he didn't get the opportunity to develop before.

I would also question the notion that he is a monster. He is not a good person, particularly pre-redemption, and even after that. But he is no Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch, Vargo Hoat or Ramsay Bolton.

[icspotz]

Clearly Jaime is irredeemable after tossing Bran but imo it was unnecessary to resort to kinslaying to further establish his amorality especially with the emphasis on kinslaying being worse than kingslaying and familial ties being so important in this culture. Martin is at the height of his craft in presenting conflicted characters motivated by their background and personal experience. What separates GRRM's from that of other writers of the genre is the finely nuanced characters who are not defined as purely good or evil but share both components. It is more difficult to show the opposite side of Jamie as he begins to transition emotionally post amputation by having him yet again commit a heinous crime taking him further away from the character the author meant to portray. This somewhat damages his future dynamic with Brienne and Cersi as he begins to regret his actions which I hope is not altered by the HBO series. In contrast the added scene of Joffery and the prostitutes showing him as an utter psychopath is more in tune with his character.

[imladolen]

I don't think a distant cousin counts as kin when it comes to the kinslaying taboo. I don't think killing a distant relative to escape is out of character for Jaime from the books at all, he's a ruthless and callous man. Why not? Remember how Jamie killed Jory and the other two Stark men just to send a message to Ned? He is ruthless and killing is no big deal for him at all. He was also out searching for Arya at the Trident with the intent to kill or maim her.

If Jaime killing Alton made him a kinslayer, then Robert Baratheon was one too when he killed Rhaegar at The Trident.

Robert and Rhaegar were second cousins, and it sure seems like that is about as closely related (at best) that Jaime and Alton were.

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

Alton may have been the lowest of the Lannisters, but he was still one of them.

/paraphrasingtywin

[7V3N]

The writers are building up the change around Brienne and (hopefully) the loss of his sword hand. They are probably going to make the "good" Jaime a lot better than he really is.

[mcb]

If Jaime killing Alton made him a kinslayer, then Robert Baratheon was one too when he killed Rhaegar at The Trident.

I think cold blooded murder and a regular battle are treated a little bit differently.

[Ser Giant]

Maybe it was a fun little bout of Smash Faces, a Lannister's fav game. Jamie's just a sore winner.

We see Tyrion playing and beating Joffry at it all the time.

[imladolen]

You are fucking scary. To so casually talk about killing children to protect others is frightening. It is not like the headsman axe was falling on these 5 peoples heads if he did not shove Bran out the window. This is a completely hypothetical situation, but I would be a little scared to be around you if you think it would be so easy to kill a child because it MIGHT save the life of a child you care more about. You see the bolded word there? He shoved a kid out a window because he might have told his father what he saw. Bran was like 8 in the books they could have potentially lied to him in the books or done something other than kill him. They could have lied to everyone else about what Bran thought he saw. No one there had any reason to suspect them of incest at that point, why would they believe an 8 year old boy, if he could not be frightened or fooled into silence? ETA: You don't truly love your children if you are not willing to kill other children. That is some sick logic. Do you realize you also contradict yourself? You say blood comes first and someone doesn't deserve to have children if they won't kill other children, then you finish up by saying all life is valuable and equal?

You're really twisting my statement up a lot dude.

I'm talking about a situation where it is literally some other random kid's life or that of mine (or my niece). If there were to cars driving out of control, one about to hit my kid and another about to hit the neighbor's kid, sorry neighbor, but my kid comes first. I'm talking about situations where you have no other choices than let your own family member die and not take another person's life, or save your family member and cause the loss of life of the other person. I am NOT AT ALL TALKING ABOUT "MIGHT" or "COULD" possibilities.

Sheesh, the way some people just want to screw with what others say. Where do you work, Fox News?

[Currawong]

That’s not so at all. If a teen is a budding sociopath, then simple “maturing” isn’t going to fix it. Only dramatic and very serious intervention has any hope of averting their path, and even that hope is a thin one. Good kids don’t turn into budding sociopaths when they’re adolescents, then go back to being decent people again after that. Being a teenager is no excuse for being a monster. Most teens are sensitive, decent human beings.

If Jaime was really a sociopath who had no feelings, enjoyed killing and watching people being killed, he would surely have enjoyed Aerys's madness and various klling sprees. I thought that was one of the points about young Jaime in both books and TV series - that he hated standing by as a KG member and watching Aerys's brutality. He was only 15 when he joined the KG (the youngest ever member), so watching all that must have had a very deep effect on him. It's clear that he was affected by it, see Season 1.

I don't agree with the Jaime-killing-Alton script change, for the reasons that I and many other people have given, but the writers obviously made a decision about his escape for the purposes of the series, so it will be up to them to show Jaime's subsequent journey in both physical and psychological terms across two long books (3 TV series?) in a way that is believable to viewers and which will - many of us sincerlely hope - give us a pretty good version of Book Jaime in the longer term. . Jaime as "the man you love to hate" is such a great character, and he is being portrayed wonderfully so far by Nikolaj Coster-Waldau.

[imladolen]

By his own admission, he couldn't care less for their children.

Can you find that quote? Is it something Jaime actually says to someone, or is it from his internal thoughts? I don't particularily recall that (though I've seen it mentioned several times this week) statement, and where it was or the circumstances.

If it was something Jaime said to someone, that cannot be taken for gospel on how Jaime actually thinks/feels about them. Jaime doesn't always say what he really thinks, and sometimes he shares a trait with his brother: saying shit he knows will piss people off, just because it will piss them off.

[imladolen]

I think cold blooded murder and a regular battle are treated a little bit differently.

Weren't some of those who fought in the Blackfyre rebellion labeled by many in Westeros as kinslayers after killing relatives who took the opposite side of the war?

ETA: Looked it up, and Brynden Rivers (Bloodraven) was named kinslayer after the battle of Weeping Ridge where he killed his half-brother Daemon Blackfyre and Daemon's twin sons. This was a battle, during a war, and yet Brynden was still called kinslayer. So any argument trying to say battle and war negates the fact you are slaying a relative does not hold water. Thus, Robert Baratheon = Kinslayer IF Jaime Lannister killing Alton = kinslaying.

[Currawong]

Can you find that quote? Is it something Jaime actually says to someone, or is it from his internal thoughts? I don't particularily recall that (though I've seen it mentioned several times this week) statement, and where it was or the circumstances. If it was something Jaime said to someone, that cannot be taken for gospel on how Jaime actually thinks/feels about them. Jaime doesn't always say what he really thinks, and sometimes he shares a trait with his brother: saying shit he knows will piss people off, just because it will piss them off.

Others will no doubt post exact quotes, but I don't think Jaime had any real feelings for Joffrey. There's one of his POV thoughts where he refers to hin as 'just a squirt of seed' or something.

We never see him interact with Myrcella (she's been sent to Dorne before he gets back to KL in ASOS), but it does seem he cares for young Tommen. There's that scene at Tywin's funeral, where Tommen is upset at the corpse and runs outside crying - Jaime rushes out to comfort him and explains very gently to the kid about how to 'go away' inside when you see terrible things. It's Cersei who's pretty brutal to the poor little kid.

And there's also that lovely little scene in the KG tower where Jaime is dealing with the various individual members. One of them (forget which one) gets a blast from Jaime about following the King's orders along the lines of (not an exact quote, sorry): " The king is eight years old. The duties of the KG are to protect him and that includes protecting him from himself. If the king asks you to saddle his pony, you do it. If the king asks you to kill his pony, you come to me." That always makes me smile - Jaime has a great way with words!

I think Jaime does care for at least the two younger kids, but of course he's never been allowed by Cersei to show too much affection to them, just be plain "Uncle Jaime in the KG".

[mcb]

Can you find that quote? Is it something Jaime actually says to someone, or is it from his internal thoughts? I don't particularily recall that (though I've seen it mentioned several times this week) statement, and where it was or the circumstances.

ASOS, the last Jaime chapter, Jaime's own thoughts: Because Joff was no more to me than a squirt of seed in Cersei's cunt.

True, nothing about Myrcella and Tommen.

[imladolen]

ASOS, the last Jaime chapter, Jaime's own thoughts: Because Joff was no more to me than a squirt of seed in Cersei's cunt. True, nothing about Myrcella and Tommen.

So, we do not know how he feels about the younger two. That changes nothing. Eliminating the threat Bran presented after his witnessing Jaime and Cersei scrumping still saved the life of his sister, who we know Jaime loved (at the time at least). One's sibling (especially a twin) is just as important as one's children, and should indeed come before some other family's kid. Blood comes first.

[SerMixalot]

So, we do not know how he feels about the younger two. That changes nothing. Eliminating the threat Bran presented after his witnessing Jaime and Cersei scrumping still saved the life of his sister, who we know Jaime loved (at the time at least). One's sibling (especially a twin) is just as important as one's children, and should indeed come before some other family's kid. Blood comes first.

I doubt book Jamie even thinks about the other 2. When admitting to cat he fathered Joffrey he says something to the effect, "I suppose the other two as well". Indicating complete dismissal of them

[Jerritus]

I don't care so much about him actually murdering a kid in cold blood, as I am bothered about the fact that he coulda just whispered to him: "LOL FAKE SEIZURE!"

But no, he just had to smash his face is.