102 replies to this topic

[Dagmer Cleftballs]

Ferrum Aeternum, on 15 May 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

That's not bad at all, especially since we never found out for sure if it was Cersei who gave Ser Mandon the order to kill Tyrion (or did we?).

Also, welcome.  

I don't recall for certain, but Tyrion assumed she was responsible, and I don't think we learned otherwise. Obviously I am quite prepared to be corrected.

turdle, on 15 May 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

that would be better than nothing, but if the chain already exists, you'd think that would have come up in tyrion and cerceis conversation about stannis. instead of cercei simply saying "we'll rain fire down on them" or what ever, she might have said, "we'll hold them at bay with the chain."

My solution definitely isn't perfect, but it's the best I could come up with. As others have said, the chain is more than just a means to victory in the story. It is essential IMO that Tyrion's cunning saves KL yet he receives no credit for it. And though I'm sure he'll keep his nose, I still expect him to be assaulted by one of "his" own men. I'm hoping he blames Cersei in the show as well, since they are getting along so well right now and that cannot last.

[Dagmer Cleftballs]

Also the chain wouldn't do much to stop a massive invasion. In fact, if they keep the ships at bay and force them to land troops farther from the walls, the wildfire plan would be less effective anyway. It's a lot easier for foes to scatter and evade on the ground than when they're stuck aboard wooden ships.

[turdle]

Dagmer Cleftballs, on 15 May 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

My solution definitely isn't perfect, but it's the best I could come up with. As others have said, the chain is more than just a means to victory in the story. It is essential IMO that Tyrion's cunning saves KL yet he receives no credit for it. And though I'm sure he'll keep his nose, I still expect him to be assaulted by one of "his" own men. I'm hoping he blames Cersei in the show as well, since they are getting along so well right now and that cannot last.

i totally agree as far as its importance to tyrion. otherwise the battle will simply be another battle, and tywin will be solely responsible for the victory. to me it's so important because later when everyone betrays tyrion, it cuts so much deeper because he literally saved all their lives.

[Dagmer Cleftballs]

It matters enough to me that I finally signed up to post a theory on how to make it work!

Whatever they do, I'm sure they'll keep that motivation for Tyrion intact. Going into season two, he was clearly a tv audience favorite and pretty much the only Lannister people didn't want to see killed (obviously in a couple of seasons everyone will love Jaime too!). Since then they've done a lot to humanize Tywin and Cersei, and post-Blackwater Tyrion will grow to hate them more than ever. May as well start laying the groundwork for that now.

[RoamingRonin]

The chain doesn't need 3-4 episodes of build up. It's JUST a great big metal chain. The writers can't afford to waste time on such a little thing. Tyrion can come up with a different idea that wins the battle anyway.

[SerMixalot]

RoamingRonin, on 15 May 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

The chain doesn't need 3-4 episodes of build up. It's JUST a great big metal chain. The writers can't afford to waste time on such a little thing. Tyrion can come up with a different idea that wins the battle anyway.

true but it would have been so easy to insert without much effot

[turdle]

SerMixalot, on 15 May 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

true but it would have been so easy to insert without much effot

what? and cut one of their 10 minute non-book scenes down to 8 minutes? i don't think so.

[sennahoj]

One problem with the chain is also the general setup of the battle. The topography of King's Landing is more or less unknown to the TV viewers. The show has established King's Landing as a city on the coast, but the fact that it lies at the estuary of the Blackwater Rush has not been stated. But I think it is crucial to understand that Stannis would sail up this major river to land his troops on the strip of land on its north bank just before the city walls. Otherwise the chain trap would make a lot less sense. This trap depends on three things, the wildfire (which has been established), the chain itself (which could still feature as being forged offscreen to surprise the viewers) and the Blackwater Rush itself, since its current pushes the fleeing ships against the chain.
So far we don't know exactly what King's Landing looks like based just on the show. Before the battle begins, either side needs to explicitly state where the best points of attack are, for example by putting a map of King's Landing on the table and saying: "Stannis will sail up the Blackwater and land his troops here, blah blah."
Without such a setup even showing the chain as a surprise without any further exposition on its making would only confuse the viewers who have not read the books. They will ask what the chain is supposed to block, whether to keep Stannis out or in, does it span the whole bay, where did that river come from etc etc
I hope I am making sense.

[Eddard Sand]

I agree that a quick little map scene would be beneficial, and preferable but isn't exactly necessary. They can still get across the point that the ships are trapped with some good cinematography. CGI birds eye view  of the ships flooding the river mouth, cut to a scene of the briefly introduced but already forgotten Saladhor Sahn holding off his own ships. We can see the chain being raised and the catapults flinging wildfire down on them. Something like that could work.

[Impish]

They don't have to build up the chain at ALL, they simply need to use it when it's time.

All you need is a few seconds of Davos noticing the little towers on the way in with a puzzled look (and maybe a line about how he's never seen them before), a shot of Tyrion ordering "raise the chain!", and chaos ensues.  That's all they need.

In fact I suspect they are deliberately avoiding any mention of the chain so far, in order to enhance the surprise for non-readers.  The audience will find out about the chain the same way Davos does, that's my bet.

[Darth Pipes]

hk47, on 15 May 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

And the Antler Men!  C'mon!

I'm amazed they haven't shown this scene, since they've created new scenes to make Joffrey look even more sadistic.

We still have to the actual battle itself for the chain to show up.  It could just appear during the battle with it noted as being Tyrion's secret weapon although I wish they would at least drop a hint.

Speaking of scenes I can't believe they haven't had, how come we haven't seen Tyrion sitting the Iron Throne?  He did in the book although the topics that were discussed (Robb's peace terms, the Night's Watch) was covered in aother scene.  Still, have can you pass up Tyrion holding court?

[Sir Cadogan]

Impish, on 15 May 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

They don't have to build up the chain at ALL, they simply need to use it when it's time.

All you need is a few seconds of Davos noticing the little towers on the way in with a puzzled look (and maybe a line about how he's never seen them before), a shot of Tyrion ordering "raise the chain!", and chaos ensues.  That's all they need.

In fact I suspect they are deliberately avoiding any mention of the chain so far, in order to enhance the surprise for non-readers.  The audience will find out about the chain the same way Davos does, that's my bet.

That's the problem. Davos sees the iron shizznit coming and then he thinks 'clever bastards'. What the audience needs to see is Tyrion's cleverness, that's what this season should've built up. CoK is so focused in Tyrion that here in Brazil the book cover is him walking through alleys in King's Landing. Such an awesome cover. It depicts the aura of the book perfectly.

[StarkBlack21]

Where is Alister Thorne? He got sent to King's Landing at the end of the first season.  Don't tell me they are getting rid of Alister Thorne and Great Jon?

[Sir Cadogan]

StarkBlack21, on 15 May 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

Where is Alister Thorne? He got sent to King's Landing at the end of the first season.  Don't tell me they are getting rid of Alister Thorne and Great Jon?

And that was a great actor. He's got this narrow look and semi-closed mouth that gives me chills.

[Greywolf2375]

StarkBlack21, on 15 May 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

Where is Alister Thorne? He got sent to King's Landing at the end of the first season.  Don't tell me they are getting rid of Alister Thorne and Great Jon?

Well, LF stole all of the teleportation crystals so Thorne actually has to walk the whole distance from the Wall to KL.

[LuisDantas]

I am willing to bet that the chain will be there.  The season is rushed enough that I believe they simply lacked the time to include a scene of Tyrion visiting the smiths and ordering its construction.

I am not however willing to bet that the chain will be shown on-panel.  We never saw the board that killed Robert, after all.

[WhiteWalder]

Rhaegar The Chef, on 15 May 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

I read somewhere that HBO gave the series 15m more than they got last season specifically for this battle. I think that if they were going to include the chain we would have seen Tyrion setting it up by now, which only disappoints me as a reader of the series not as a fan of the show. The battle is going to be EPIC either way.

Maybe there will be a 15 million dollar chain.

[Kaitscralt]

SerMixalot, on 15 May 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

the return of Renly (sic)

How is this an important element? Renly's helmet wasn't even in the show.

[Ser Giant]

Loras will rush Renly's head to Ramsay and have it professionaly skinned so he can wear it in the battle. It is known.

[Sword of the Morning Wood]

I'm hoping either he's been working on the chain and reveals it before, or even during the battle or that he learns it's already there and decides to use it. Tyrion tactically outmanoeuvring Stannis' army is a crucial bit of the plot. (Well probably not but it's fucking cool).