Bride of Winter Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 It seems like people are pretty undecided on when exactly Roose decided to switch sides in the series.Something that really caught my eye was the scene where after all of Robb's bannermen left, Roose stayed for a bit, but left as Robb chose to talk to Jeyne instead. Based off of that, I'm guessing they're going to try to show that Roose was on Robb's side, but is gradually being pushed towards betraying him. What do you think of this change? Do you think in the series, Roose was always planning on betraying him, or do you think that he decided to switch sides later after it seemed like Robb was losing? Personally, I like having more depth on Roose's side, but I think the scene where Robb ignored Roose for Jeyne was plain idiotic on a level unrealistic even for Robb. He's generally supposed to have his head in the right place except for the sudden marriage. This dragged out love story is making him look a lot more dumb than he needs to be. Not to mention, if they simply make a comment in passing about the Boltons and Starks having been enemies for 10,000 years, they wouldn't have to make it look like Robb is begging for the Boltons' betrayal. Of course, this brings the question of what exactly his role was in the Sack of Winterfell, which happened before the Jeyne mess in both the series and show. But for the most part, I'm guessing the show is taking the side of Robb driving Roose to betray. Which, although it's quite possible, isn't very nice to watch unfold before your eyes. So my question is, when do you think Roose chose to betray Robb in the books, and do you think they're going about it right in the show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victim Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 As to whether the time when Roose actively changed sides, it seems pretty difficult to determine. In my opinion, however, Roose always had the idea in his head that betrayal was an option and he was pushed in that direction by the disregarding of the Frey's. There's more to his character than "I just wanted to be Warden of the North' and I think it's good they're showing this softer side to start with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sxxman Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 The way Roose is portrayed in the books, I knew from the moment he was described that he was going to betray Robb and the only question to me was when (just looks evil). The way the show is going about it, to me makes the betrayal and the RW even more devastating especially if Roose explains to Robb before he kills him that he didn't WANT to betray him but for self-preservation he HAD to because the war was lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WetHair Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I'm of the opinion that Roose wasn't always planning to switch sides but did it when it was likely Robb was going to lose. A bit like Osha saying she had no intention of being drown at Winterfell. Not that long before the RW he was telling Robb that Ramsay had Theon and was flaying him and Robb made it clear he didn't want Theon flayed, he wanted him dead. Roose went on about how he has value as a hostage, yada, yada and was getting Robb and Cat quite upset. I don't see the point of this conversation if he was already planning on betraying Robb. Why bring attention to himself? So I think it wasn't that long before the RW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Theon taking Winterfell and killing Bran and Rickon combined with Stannis losing at the Blackwater sealed the deal for Roose in the books Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I'm of the opinion that Roose wasn't always planning to switch sides but did it when it was likely Robb was going to lose. A bit like Osha saying she had no intention of being drown at Winterfell.Not that long before the RW he was telling Robb that Ramsay had Theon and was flaying him and Robb made it clear he didn't want Theon flayed, he wanted him dead. Roose went on about how he has value as a hostage, yada, yada and was getting Robb and Cat quite upset. I don't see the point of this conversation if he was already planning on betraying Robb. Why bring attention to himself? So I think it wasn't that long before the RW.You realize that scene happens like the same day as the RW right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WetHair Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Erm......................obviously not! :bang: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Oberyn_ Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I'm sure Ruse was on Robbs side when he thought Casterly Rock and KL were up for grabbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeirwoodTreeHugger Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 The Boltons have always resented having to defer to the Starks. I always imagined Roose spent his life waiting for an oppurtunity like this. There's no way Ramsay, who is very impulsive could have planned the sack of Winterfell IMHO. We'll never know without a Roose POV I guess. To me Roose is up there with LF and Varys in terms of long term scheming. He's terrifying in ADWD. Poor dumb Robb just gave him the oppurtunity to turn his cloak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Areo Speedwagon Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I think it's a gradual thing. he's an opportunist. But...It's been a while since I read the books, but doesn't Robb execute Karstark? I think they've set that up with jaime killing Karstark's son in his escape attempt. but if that didn't happen in the books, oh well, they still set it up in the show.I think it's good writing that D&D are merging themes in different storylines. One reason Davos gives Stannis for his men's distrust of Melissandre is that she's a "foreigner." I watched the episode at 2am last night, but doesn't Karstark say that Robb has been spending too much time with that "foreign bitch." For me, one theme that emerged while reading the books is this sense that, even without the Long Night, by the end of this series, Westeros will be a totally different place. In another storyline, I think Dany is going to have to deal with being a "foreigner." Someone on another thread, mentioning Martin's historical acumen, brought up that by the end of the War of the Roses, the Rennaissance had started. I think that's where we're headed and Westerosi attitudes on foreigners is going to be a part of that.Back to Roose...Lastly, I think it was Bran Vras who mentioned in one of his extensive (and I think very enjoyable) threads that Martin has established twists on classic monsters. Qyburn as his version of Frankenstein and his Monster. The concept of Wargs as a version of the Werewolf myth. Then Bran Vras (at least I think it was him) mentioned Roose being his version of the vampire. Obsessing about blood, being far older than he looks, evil and villainous, etc. I don't know if you saw it, and it most likely is just something the actor thought would look good, but when Talisa comes to talk to Robb, you can see him in the background walking away and after a few steps he flings his cloak across his chest and over his shoulder. It just struck me as something very much in line with Nosferatu or an old Bela Lugosi Dracula wrapped up in his cloak. Again, 99% it's nothing, but it just struck me as Dracula-esque fr some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of Dragonstone Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I don't know if you saw it, and it most likely is just something the actor thought would look good, but when Talisa comes to talk to Robb, you can see him in the background walking away and after a few steps he flings his cloak across his chest and over his shoulder. It just struck me as something very much in line with Nosferatu or an old Bela Lugosi Dracula wrapped up in his cloak. Again, 99% it's nothing, but it just struck me as Dracula-esque fr some reason.I caught this too and thought it was a nice touch. Funny that you mention this because when he did it I thought "Count Dracula" haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WITCHKING Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Kate let the kingslayer escaped to save her daughters.The Starks dont care about the other Northeners , just about themselfs.Stark children are precious, Karstack children are not...Bolton was 100% right to betrayed such a family... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Areo Speedwagon Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I caught this too and thought it was a nice touch. Funny that you mention this because when he did it I thought "Count Dracula" hahanice. Glad i'm not crazy. well, at least not for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monk Meth- Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Roose says the war was lost the moment robb lost winterfell.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monk Meth- Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Kate let the kingslayer escaped to save her daughters.The Starks dont care about the other Northeners , just about themselfs.Stark children are precious, Karstack children are not...Bolton was 100% right to betrayed such a family...Kate let the kingslayer escaped to save her daughters.The Starks dont care about the other Northeners , just about themselfs.Stark children are precious, Karstack children are not...Bolton was 100% right to betrayed such a family...because avenging someone who is alredy dead takes priority over keeping 2 other people alive... no.. it doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milcov Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 The Boltons have always resented having to defer to the Starks. I always imagined Roose spent his life waiting for an oppurtunity like this. There's no way Ramsay, who is very impulsive could have planned the sack of Winterfell IMHO. We'll never know without a Roose POV I guess. To me Roose is up there with LF and Varys in terms of long term scheming. He's terrifying in ADWD. Poor dumb Robb just gave him the oppurtunity to turn his cloak.I think Theon's conversations with Roose show that wasn't always the case. Roose cares for his house and is very much like Tywin in this sense. He rues having Ramsay as an heir, like Tywin (wrongly) rues having Tyrion. Roose is purely pragmatic and you can tell he fears for his house under Ramsay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tourniquet Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I think that Roose is starting to see the "boy" in Robb and realize that although he has a great mind for battle...he isn't going to make a great King. Roose must have a horse in both races if he wants to make it out alive and right after he see's Robb's interactions with Talisa/Jeyne he decides its time to put those plans into action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Lannister Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 He looked so fucking awesome with his fur cape and shoulder-swirling that I don't even care if he betrays Robb anymore......Seriously though, I think it was a subtle hint that Roose is picking up on things, and that Robb should watch himself. According to Roose himself (not a wholly reliable source, granted), he gave up on Robb's cause when the Starks lost Winterfell, but he still strikes me as firmly on Robb's side at this point. Maybe Ramsay going batshit will tip the scales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WITCHKING Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 because avenging someone who is alredy dead takes priority over keeping 2 other people alive...no.. it doesn't.Didnt the Northeners loose their son's to avenge someone who is dead(Ned)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gendry Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 In reading the book I got the impression that Bolton was swayed by the letter sent by Tywin, I recall a scene where Tywin tells his son that wars aren't always won with swords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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