122 replies to this topic

[samtheseducer]

This is not a thread of which is the better literary piece of work, to each his own opinion. Both are great books (series of books) full with great characters and enjoyable moments, to say the least. Having said that, this thread is more about who would win in a battle between the armies of westeros and the middle earth, lead by some some specific characters, if they decide to wage war. To decide the outcome we are going to use the book version, unless stated otherwise. Sorry if this has been done before.
armies:

• -Lord of the rings:

Gondor and Rohan. Both kingdoms are at their prime. Both armies are being led by king king Aragorn and king Théoden. Gimli and and Legolas are fighting with the realm of men.

• -infantry: 10,000
  
• - cavarly: 10,000
  
• -archers: 5000

• - A song of ice and fire:

the westerlands and the north. both armies are being led by Robb Stark and Tywin Lannister. the hound and Jaime lannister are commanding a small pack of knights.

• -infantry: 10,000
  
• -knights: 10,000
  
• - archers: 5000

• Rules:
  
• Battle takes place in a neutral ground with no natural advantage.
  
• The middle earth army doesn't have the help from the elfs and dwarfs
  
• no magic users are allowed
  
• Lets assume that the Lannister and Starks have no quarrel, on the contrary, they have a powerful alliance in search to expand their influence.
  
• Aragorn and Theoden are looking to repel the invasion of the foreigners and they would fight until the last man.
  
• Both sides have study and know their enemy strategies and equipment. They have information about who they are and what are the capabilities of their kingdoms.

Round 2: Siege warfare

• The middle earth army tries to lay siege and take Storm's end. army consist on 25,000 troops, same general but with the siege engines the Orcs used to lay siege to Minas Tirith.

• The westerosi army tries to lay siege and take Minas tirith. 25,000 troops, but this time they have the siege engines Renly had in his camp at Bitterbridge.
  
• which army would last more defending its post?

• Rules:

• Storm's end is being held by a tyrell and  Baratheon army. the men are being led by Randyll Tarly and Stannis Baratheon. They have 5000 men at arms with them. The gondorian navy have sorrounded the castle thereby cutting any communication.

• Minas tirith is being held by Aragorn and Boromir. They have 5000 men.

• This stage of the battle will be a full attack on both castle and city; otherwise, there would be no point of debating about two armies waiting for the other to starve to death and surrender.
  
• The point of this stage is to see which army would last the longer defending, is not conquring the middle earth or westeros.

Round 3:

• Sandor vs Gimli
  
• Aragorn vs Jaime Lannister

• Rules:

• Standard equipment for both characters in both.
  
• Aragorn have the sword from the return of the king
  
• we can use both movie and television version for the lord of the rings and game of thrones, respectively

(If someone can help me with some extra information about the lord of the rings characters and the westerosi characters, i would appreciate it.)

Edited by samtheseducer, 15 May 2012 - 08:20 PM.

[Lan the Clever]

Lord of the Rings wins all but the Sandor/Gimli duel. The Aragorn/Jaime duel I'm not sure.

[samtheseducer]

Lan the Clever, on 14 May 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

Lord of the Rings wins all but the Sandor/Gimli duel. The Aragorn/Jaime duel I'm not sure.

please, elaborate.

[FuzzyJAM]

Considering a large proportion of the people in LotR are descended from gods, I'd say they've got things on lock.

[Lan the Clever]

samtheseducer, on 14 May 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

please, elaborate.

The Lord of the Rings guys have stronger and lighter armor, better weapons and are more used to fighting together, not to mention that they have cavalry far better than any in Westeros.

[samtheseducer]

Lan the Clever, on 14 May 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

The Lord of the Rings guys have stronger and lighter armor, better weapons and are more used to fighting together, not to mention that they have cavalry far better than any in Westeros.

I have not read the LOftR, so i can't argue about those facts; however i do have some questions. When you say the armor is lighter and stronger, are you refering to armies in general or just certain characters?  same question to the fact of better weapons, all the armies have better weapons of just a few characters? remember westerosi armor and equipment is the equivalent of late medieval period, that would mean plate armour and longswords. As to the better cavarlry and use to fight together againts enemies, remember we are talking about three master tactician in the westerosi faction. tywin, Robb and Jaime. You could argue that the first two are the best generals in westeros.

by the way, what do you think about the siege warfare?

thanks for your opinion.

[The Taupe Grace]

Awesome idea!
Actually I'm having a lot of trouble deciding who would indeed win. In terms of discipline and warfare, the Gondorian armies have been much more seasoned in warfare and defence, given their recent prolonged experiences and longterm exposure to Mordor. In terms of Sieges, both Minas Tirith and Storms End would be formidable keeps to overcome...

However, architecture and stats aside, with Lannisters on one side, the character of warfare would be distinctly more dirty on the Westorosi end, and I can see much more unethical methods used in siege warfare (e.g. Tywin's burning of the Riverlands) than the noble men of Gondor.

I would pay for front row seats to watch an Aragorn/Jaime Lannister deathmatch. Long-lost King of Gondor vs... the Kingslayer. Sounds like a tough match. I'd toss for Aragorn... just. I think Jaime would hard to beat, but I just can't see Aragorn losing, and I think Jaime *would* see himself losing - in the battle of wills, and the battle itself.

[Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully]

Meh...

Amroth for Gondor! Amroth to Faramir!

But I think it's a rather impossible thing to settle. The armies of Middle earth don't use any armour heavier than chain mail, and riders probably don't use lances but spears instead. Tactically, the Stark/Lannister alliance has the advantage, at least at first glance.

FuzzyJAM, on 14 May 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

Considering a large proportion of the people in LotR are descended from gods, I'd say they've got things on lock.

Wat

Edited by Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully, 14 May 2012 - 09:04 PM.

[FuzzyJAM]

Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully, on 14 May 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Wat

Read The Silmarillion.  The people of Gondor are descended from elven kings (i.e. powerful immortal beings) and Maiar (god-angels who created Middle-Earth and everywhere else) and also blessed by the gods.  Depending on how much Númenórean blood you have in you, you are going to be considerably "better" than normal men in almost every way.  Considering Aragorn was not that far off being able to challenge gods himself, the idea of Jaime competing is silly.  Maybe ten Jaimes and it would be worth watching.

Sorry to be boring, but it's a wash: normal men vs. vastly superior men with considerably better armour, etc. than humans can actually produce makes LotR win easily.

Edited by FuzzyJAM, 14 May 2012 - 09:15 PM.

[Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully]

@FuzzyJAM

I've read The Silmarillion, actually. More closely than you perhaps, mate ; )

The ones who created Middle earth (Arda, really) are the Ainur, who are divided between the Valar and the Maiar, the former being the leaders and mightiest.

The Kings of Numenor descend from Elros, brother of Earendil, who had elven blood in his veins, chose to become a Half-Elf when the Valar summoned him to Valinor. No Maia blood in there.

The People of Numenor descend from the Edain, but they have NO elven blood. Their island was made by the Valar to be fertile, have a lot of minerals, etc...

The People of Gondor are Numenoreans who mixed with Middle Men (that is, people who never went to Numenor, but lived in Middle earth), thus they lost the 'Numenorean blood bonus'.

The Prince of Dol Amroth and his nobility have elven blood in them.

The 'Best' of the Numenoreans was Elendil the Tall, and he was slain, along with Gil-Galad, by Sauron (though the two of them together weakened him so much that Isildur could deal the killing blow). So Numenorean blood =/= not that far off from being able to challenge 'gods' himself, though Numenoreans were taller than average.

EDIT: Sorry; Elros was the Son of Earendil, and Elrond was his brother. Mixed up there

Edited by Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully, 14 May 2012 - 09:37 PM.

[Toccs]

Lord of the Rings would win all the time but only because it's not really a valid comparison.  The high men of middle earth with the blood of numenor are gong to beat the people from Westeros everytime.  Any structure built by the Numenoreans themselves like Minas Tirith or Isengard is so far beyond anything that the Westerosi are capabe of building that they could never really hope to take it by force.

[Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully]

There are no 'High Men' in Middle earth... the Numenoreans were close to that (and they weren't so invincible by being Numenoreans per se), but the Gondorians have lost most of their Numenorean heritage

[Toccs]

The people of Gondor were still refered to as "high men" to distinguish themselves from people like the Northmen and the Rohirim.  The Gondorains may not have be the equivalent of the Numenoreans proper but they have most definately not lost all their Numenorean heritage, it's a major theme of the story that the power is waning but not yet gone completely.  In places like Dol Amroth the blood of Numenor is still stronger then even in Gondor.

[FuzzyJAM]

Aragorn, along with at least the Númenórean nobility, is descended from Thingol and Melian - Elf and Mair respectively - through Lúthien.  And Isildur fought Sauron (with help, of course) and won.  Aragorn is his heir and supposedly close to his strength.  

Time to re-read your books.  

[Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully]

LOL, you're right. Elros is the son of Elwing, daughter of Luthien, daughter of Melian.

My points still stands for the People of Numenor (the 'smallfolk') though : p . So we're even.

@Toccs

The Numenoreans weren't strong on account of being Numenorean, they were strong because they were numerous, had a powerful fleet, steelbows, good weapons and armour, etc. When they say that the Numenorean blood is strong in Gondor, they mean that their physical features (proud faces, hair, height) are still quite Numenorean - not that they will kick your ass because 'sorry, got Numenor blood in my veins'  ; )

[Toccs]

So I guess being stronger, faster, smarter, seeing further and living 2 or 3 times longer than normal men had nothing to do with it then.

Edited by Toccs, 14 May 2012 - 10:04 PM.

[FuzzyJAM]

Yeah, Númenóreans are better than normal men in every way.  It wasn't simply that they were more learned; indeed, part of the reason they were so learned was that they were simply more intelligent.

As Toccs says, a large theme of LotR is the end of the "Golden Age", a theme that has echoes throughout various mythologies.

Edited by FuzzyJAM, 14 May 2012 - 10:11 PM.

[Ser? My Lady? Ser?]

Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully, on 14 May 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Meh...

Amroth for Gondor! Amroth to Faramir!

But I think it's a rather impossible thing to settle. The armies of Middle earth don't use any armour heavier than chain mail, and riders probably don't use lances but spears instead. Tactically, the Stark/Lannister alliance has the advantage, at least at first glance.

Hmm?  In the movies (which we are using to compare as stated in the OP) the Gondor soldiers have a full suit of plate mail and good sturdy shields.  Rohan warriors don't use plate, but Gondor riders do.

Anywho, for the sieges the defenders would win, both castles are just way to supreme and the attacking force too weak as far as numbers.  Aragorn would beat Jamie Lannister (Aragorn has been in way more battles, is more experienced, and has a better blade).  Gimli would defeat Sandor (dwarves are hard as fuck).

The land battle would be a toss up, mass slaughter on both sides with probably no decisive victories.  Both sides have well equpped men, strong leaders, and experienced soldiers.

[Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully]

'sigh'

Aragorn is a quite exceptional case, and it doesn't count in this discussion. Aragorn is not a Gondorian, he is a Dunedain of ARNOR. And he is from a line who never mixed with Middle Men. Besides, he's not stronger, smarter, et, because he has Numenorean blood, but because he spent ALL HIS LIFE (from his twenties onwards) being a badass, going from North to South and East to West. It is true that because he has a longer life and keeps his strength for a longer time, he could be 'better' than normal men, but, again, his descendance does not make him a badass.

Faramir is a Gondorian, Boromir was a Gondorian. Beregond, Denethor, etc. Those dudes could not live for 200 years.

@Ser?

The OP was refering to the books. The 'both books and movie' rule is only for the duels.

[Ser? My Lady? Ser?]

Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully, on 14 May 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

@Ser?

The OP was refering to the books. The 'both books and movie' rule is only for the duels.

Ah.  Hmm, I read all the books in the LORT series myself (silmarillion and unfinished tales included) but I don't recall them saying that the soldiers during the third age didn't wear plate mail.  Rohan warriors probably, but Gondor?