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The Dragon Has Three heads.....(ADWD spoiler)


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#41 Net-Viper X

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 11:31 PM

The three headed dragon thing is foreshadowing to a future tragedy. Dany and her army are going to get massacred at a Frey wedding and they will sew all three of her dragons heads on her shoulders. Hints to the contrary are just there to mislead you.

#42 Nikos Targaryen

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 11:33 PM

He was raised by Tywin, after all. Jon spends a lot of time trying to follow Ned's example too.

Ah, but as far as we know, Jon is Ned's son. /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' /> Anyway, I find it hard to believe that Tywin would raise a bastard dwarf in his household. Now if he didn't know that Aerys was the father, that casts doubt upon aery's fatherin a child with Joanna as the cause of Tywin's disdain for Tyrion. Other factors that point against Tyrion having Targaryen blood are,

1.) No dragon dreams

2.) No known resistance to fire/ heat

3.) Complete Lannister appearence (although this doesn't count for much, Princess Rhaenys apparently looked like a Martell)

These, coupled with the other aruments I gave above, are why I think Tyrion is 100% Lannister. That's not to say he can't still be a dragon rider, GRRM said the 3 heads don't all have to be Targs

#43 DragonsHungry

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 11:55 PM

If the Tyrion Targaryen theory is true--and believe me, I am a reluctant convert, but ADWD convinced me--I don't think that means that everything that ever went wrong between Tyrion and Tywin can be attributed to that single fact. There's also Tysha, for example, which isn't directly related to Tyrion's parentage.


I don't disagree, there are hints out there, many have pointed them out in the thread, my point is more my opinion, it would be horrible storytelling, and make this series jump the shark.

Tyrion is a great character, but for the reasons he uses his mind to overcome the limitations and the prejudice of being a dwarf (getting no credit), getting some Deux Ex Machina bloodline and dragon would throw the whole development in the garbage. The whole dynamic with Tywin his father was a powerful conclusion to Storm of Swords, it sort of tosses that out and cheapens what he did in my opinion.

Jon Snow has been built up the whole series about his mother from AGoT, the various mentions and wording in Ned's flashbacks about Lyanna Stark, it was apart of the foundation of the character. If R+L = J turns out to be true, it is not a big deal, we have been setup the whole series for to lead the truth.

Not so with Tyrion. Sure there are passages, they are vague, but the powerful ending of ASoS with him invested the reader with Tyrion being Tywin's son, both skilled players of the Game of Thrones. Tyrion's father denies him love and Casterly Rock, but the truth is Tyrion is Tywin's heir, he is his father's son in many ways.

Tyrion being a secret Targ? That sort of makes killing Tywin way less powerful. It lets Tyrion's tormented soul off the hook, he just killed some Lannister lord, not his father. He is not a kin-slayer anymore. It is very emotionally powerful to kill ones own father, less so if it turns out that man was not his father.

Tyrion the mentor to Dany, I can see that. Tyrion the Dragon Rider? Uggghh.

Dany is definitely one head, Jon Snow is likely another, the third could be Aegon maybe? If GRRM is setting up a second "Dance with Dragons", a clash between Targs, then Aegon would stand to acquire a Dragon, no matter if he is Targ or Blackfyre, he still has Targ blood.

I have no idea, but I don't think Jon, Dany, and Tyrion swoop in and save the day on dragons, that is bordering "Superfriends" territory.

Edited by DragonsHungry, 10 September 2012 - 11:58 PM.


#44 Harry the Heir

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 12:56 AM

Anyway, I find it hard to believe that Tywin would raise a bastard dwarf in his household. Now if he didn't know that Aerys was the father, that casts doubt upon aery's fatherin a child with Joanna as the cause of Tywin's disdain for Tyrion.


There's a third possibility that you're neglecting, namely that Tywin suspects Tyrion's true parentage but can neither prove it nor entirely accept that it's true, so that he is conflicted on the subject. If he sent Tyrion away, that would mean that he accepted that his beloved Joanna gave birth to another man's child, and that's a step too far for him. And yet every time he looks at Tyrion the suspicion comes back. The way Tywin puts it to Tyrion is that "[M]en's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine." (Emphasis mine.) It's not a settled opinion with him, it's a cause of considerable internal turmoil.

Also, consider the public nature of this: if Ser Barristan knows about Aerys' obsession with Joanna, presumably a lot of the old timers do as well. Tywin's public position on the matter would have been that nothing happened, that rumors to the contrary were filthy lies, etc., etc. However, if he then moves to prohibit Tyrion from inheriting, that undermines his story and reopens the old wounds all over again.

No dragon dreams


From Tyrion's second AGOT chapter: "Sad, isn't it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own." ... "I seldom even dream of dragons anymore. There are no dragons."

No known resistance to fire/ heat


Not a prerequisite. Viserys wasn't immune to fire, after all.

These, coupled with the other aruments I gave above, are why I think Tyrion is 100% Lannister. That's not to say he can't still be a dragon rider, GRRM said the 3 heads don't all have to be Targs


Tyrion's not a Targaryen. He's a Lannister, like Joffrey was a Baratheon. /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

Tyrion being a secret Targ? That sort of makes killing Tywin way less powerful. It lets Tyrion's tormented soul off the hook, he just killed some Lannister lord, not his father. He is not a kin-slayer anymore. It is very emotionally powerful to kill ones own father, less so if it turns out that man was not his father.


Honestly, there's something to that objection, and it's a big reason why I resisted the theory myself for so long. But that seems like where GRRM is taking things, and I'm not sure it's quite as bad as you're making it. I don't think it's the one and only reason why Tywin and Tyrion had a fucked up relationship. And even if Tywin is actually Tyrion's first cousin once removed rather than his biological father, he's still basically Tyrion's father, just like Ned is Jon's real father regardless of what the genetics of the situation are. Tywin's the man who raised him and molded his personality more than anybody else in the world. So it doesn't change any of the emotions of that moment.

And none of this means that Tyrion, Jon and Dany are all going to be friends and save the world together. Moqorro's prophecy suggests a darker role for Tyrion, whatever his heritage is.

Edited by Harry the Heir, 11 September 2012 - 01:28 AM.


#45 DaveRoid

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:06 AM

Tyrion is not a tygaryan but takes control of a dragon with the horn and help of moroqo thereby becoming a head of the dragon. The end.

#46 Harry the Heir

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:15 AM

Tyrion is not a tygaryan but takes control of a dragon with the horn and help of moroqo thereby becoming a head of the dragon. The end.


"The end?" That sounds pretty definitive, although it suddenly seems a little silly that we have these little discussions when we could have just asked you for the answers.

#47 DaveRoid

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:36 AM

^ I have an eye for these things.

#48 Feather Crystal

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:37 AM

For the record, I just want to state that I believe Tyrion is a Lannister and that he will be one of the dragon heads. The clue is the dragon eggs, their colors, and where they were positioned in the pyre. He will ride Rhaegal, who is the green dragon. The green egg was placed near Drogo's head on the pyre. Tyrion has mis-matched eyes with one of them being green. He dreamt of dragons and is knowledgeable about dragons, which is symbolized by the egg being placed by the head. He will design their saddles and know how to train them. Likewise, the cream and gold egg was placed between Drogo's legs, which points towards Jon's sexual relationship to Daenerys, with the cream representing Snow and ice, and the gold his royal parentage.

#49 Ser Endrew Tarth

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:43 AM

For the record, I just want to state that I believe Tyrion is a Lannister and that he will be one of the dragon heads. The clue is the dragon eggs, their colors, and where they were positioned in the pyre. He will ride Rhaegal, who is the green dragon. The green egg was placed near Drogo's head on the pyre. Tyrion has mis-matched eyes with one of them being green. He dreamt of dragons and is knowledgeable about dragons, which is symbolized by the egg being placed by the head. He will design their saddles and know how to train them. Likewise, the cream and gold egg was placed between Drogo's legs, which points towards Jon's sexual relationship to Daenerys, with the cream representing Snow and ice, and the gold his royal parentage.


ok that's a pretty well thought out theory... good stuff! /cheers.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheers:' />

#50 Jay Stark

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 12:02 PM

My preferred riders: Jon snow. Dolorous Edd and either Bronn or Arya
but alas it'll be Dany as one head. Hopefully Jon a second as for the third, its all in the air, Aemon/Tyrion/A warg, or maybe it'll just be hot pie :l

Edited by Jay Stark, 11 September 2012 - 12:03 PM.


#51 Feather Crystal

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 12:49 PM

ok that's a pretty well thought out theory... good stuff! /cheers.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheers:' />


Or, maybe the cream and gold egg placed between Drogo's legs indicates that Jon is a sexy stud.

#52 Ser Endrew Tarth

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:02 PM

My preferred riders: Jon snow. Dolorous Edd and either Bronn or Arya
but alas it'll be Dany as one head. Hopefully Jon a second as for the third, its all in the air, Aemon/Tyrion/A warg, or maybe it'll just be hot pie :l


Or maybe GRRM will suprise us all and kill Dany to make room for another. I think Dany haters/lovers alike would all be shocked. I for one am shipping Dany and Jon, tho i realize it seems unlikely given their current circumstances.

Or, maybe the cream and gold egg placed between Drogo's legs indicates that Jon is a sexy stud.


or it could mean Jon has ballz! Or it could be symbolizing Stannis cuz he's "stiff" and "Crotch"-ety... Ok i'll stop now. /blushing.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blushing:' />

Edited by Ser Endrew Tarth, 11 September 2012 - 01:03 PM.


#53 Jay Stark

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:19 PM

Or maybe GRRM will suprise us all and kill Dany to make room for another. I think Dany haters/lovers alike would all be shocked. I for one am shipping Dany and Jon, tho i realize it seems unlikely given their current circumstances.


I must admit i dont hate or love Dany, shes just kind of there to me, although having to make a choice, i'd have to lean towards hate. I wouldn't be as shocked as i would have been say two books back, Dany dying could pave the way for the ending plot and pave the way for the rest of the surviving peeps. Dany and Jon seems to good to happen, Jon and val i can get behind however.
Dan+Jon all i can see there is maybe a little nookie seeing as there are not so many books left to advance it in, unless we want a whirlwind romance, and i find that thought not too appealing. Unless of course its for the good of the realm that they marry? Hmmm i could stand that

#54 Lord Liam DarkStark

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 03:35 PM

now thats a brilliant observation /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Absolutely brilliant!!! I thought about how tyrion and jon shared that I forgot dany too (: they were always my team for the dragons. Aegon just seems so fake...he's too perfect a prince to be real..

#55 Lord Liam DarkStark

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 03:43 PM

ok that's a pretty well thought out theory... good stuff! /cheers.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheers:' />

Agreed! I thike this theory. Cause killling dany would just be a shot to piss people off. She's the dragon's mother. He spent so much building it up to her first flight. I want to see her story ended more postively since she has dealt with such tragedy. All three have tyrion was always my choice for the green one. Cause a dwarf on a dragon. What a crazy notion and what is george if not crazy. And then jon snow with a snow colored dragon. Interesting. And they all had their mothers die in child bed! I also believe the possibility of aerys being tyrion's father as well. We all know about his love for Lady Joanna...but tyrion is much like tywin..or is he just like lann. I suppose the answers will come...

#56 Lord Liam DarkStark

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 03:49 PM

There's a third possibility that you're neglecting, namely that Tywin suspects Tyrion's true parentage but can neither prove it nor entirely accept that it's true, so that he is conflicted on the subject. If he sent Tyrion away, that would mean that he accepted that his beloved Joanna gave birth to another man's child, and that's a step too far for him. And yet every time he looks at Tyrion the suspicion comes back. The way Tywin puts it to Tyrion is that "[M]en's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine." (Emphasis mine.) It's not a settled opinion with him, it's a cause of considerable internal turmoil.

Also, consider the public nature of this: if Ser Barristan knows about Aerys' obsession with Joanna, presumably a lot of the old timers do as well. Tywin's public position on the matter would have been that nothing happened, that rumors to the contrary were filthy lies, etc., etc. However, if he then moves to prohibit Tyrion from inheriting, that undermines his story and reopens the old wounds all over again.



From Tyrion's second AGOT chapter: "Sad, isn't it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own." ... "I seldom even dream of dragons anymore. There are no dragons."



Not a prerequisite. Viserys wasn't immune to fire, after all.



Tyrion's not a Targaryen. He's a Lannister, like Joffrey was a Baratheon. /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />



Honestly, there's something to that objection, and it's a big reason why I resisted the theory myself for so long. But that seems like where GRRM is taking things, and I'm not sure it's quite as bad as you're making it. I don't think it's the one and only reason why Tywin and Tyrion had a fucked up relationship. And even if Tywin is actually Tyrion's first cousin once removed rather than his biological father, he's still basically Tyrion's father, just like Ned is Jon's real father regardless of what the genetics of the situation are. Tywin's the man who raised him and molded his personality more than anybody else in the world. So it doesn't change any of the emotions of that moment.

And none of this means that Tyrion, Jon and Dany are all going to be friends and save the world together. Moqorro's prophecy suggests a darker role for Tyrion, whatever his heritage is.


Agreed. I do think that tyrion is part targ though. The impact of killing tywin is still huge. He killed the man that scorned him since the day he was born and riipped his way free from joanna. Why would george hint at aerys and joanna. I think barristan will reveal that to tyrion. Since he hinted it first. But for jon to find out. I don't know. Possibly from BR. Or if he is reborn. If they are all 'reborn' too that'd be interesting. Dany in the fire. Jon being healed. And tyrion's would happen within the next book or the one after. Its all up in the air though I know never to assume when it comes to a martin tale.

#57 DaveRoid

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 05:08 PM

For the record, I just want to state that I believe Tyrion is a Lannister and that he will be one of the dragon heads. The clue is the dragon eggs, their colors, and where they were positioned in the pyre. He will ride Rhaegal, who is the green dragon. The green egg was placed near Drogo's head on the pyre. Tyrion has mis-matched eyes with one of them being green. He dreamt of dragons and is knowledgeable about dragons, which is symbolized by the egg being placed by the head. He will design their saddles and know how to train them. Likewise, the cream and gold egg was placed between Drogo's legs, which points towards Jon's sexual relationship to Daenerys, with the cream representing Snow and ice, and the gold his royal parentage.

Well stated. After reading "The ice dragon" novel recently I have this crack pot theory that one of Danny's dragons dies in battle (the white one) and Jon has to find his own dragon to become one of the heads... an ice dragon! and another super crack pot theory that the ice dragon will be bran! (with him wraging permanently into the dragons body) therebye fulfilling the promise to him that he can fly (it was a big big deal when he was promised this, I cant see warging ravens doing it as any other skinchanger can do it eventually) .

Edited by DaveRoid, 11 September 2012 - 05:13 PM.


#58 Budj

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:59 PM

If the prophecy isn't actually one person with three heads/crowns/identities (Jon Snow) then I want it to turn out that the three heads/riders are in conflict with one another rather than a unified force to save the day (Dany, Jon, and Aegon).

#59 Danelle

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 03:59 AM

First post so apologies if this has already been covered or if ive posted in the wrong place but......

Who do you think the "dragon has three heads" refers to? My theory is as follows

Dany.
We all know that she is a true targ and mother if dragons. We also know her mother died giving birth to her.....random comment but there is a point to the last comment

Jon.
I'm going to assume everyone knows of the L+A=J theory and thats why he is the second head....and to back this up his mother Lyanna also died...can you see where I'm going with this?

Finally....Tyrion.
ADWD pops up with the story of how Aerys took liberties with Tywins wife....now imagine this happend a few times and a child was conceived who killed his mother when born and we have Tyrion....another poss targ child killing his mother when born.

Now I know this is a bit of a jump and with very little to back it up but to me we have three of the main characters in the book who have a poss targ parent ( one confirmed) and each killed their mother as they came into the world...GRRM doesn't do coincidence so.......

What do you think?


I agree. For me those three are the main characters in the books. I am not saying that Ned, Cat, Jaime are not important, it is just that those three have constantly fought against all odds and proved themselves to be worthy.
Dany started as a meek child, became a khaaleesi a rebel a queen, when everyone expected her to end her days in Vaes Dothraki. Her abilities are constantly questioned.
Jon started as a bastard then became the youngest Lord Commander of the Watch. His skills are constantly questioned.
Tyrion started as a dwarf, saved KL from Stannis's fleet. His skills are constantly questioned.
All three have proved themselves worthy no matter what. Rhaella died in childbirth. So did Joanna. Lyanna, it is implied that she gave birth to Jon and then died. In GOT the mysterious events in TOJ are briefly descibed and have lead to speculation that R+L=J. In the same book Tyrion Lannister mentions that he was fascinated by dragons and even dreamed of them. Five books later, Barristan tells Dany that her father lusted after Joanna. As a true knight Barristan was too honourable to give more details about their relationship. He also mentions Ser Bonifer, with whom Rhaella was in love. He gives more about them because after Rhaella was betrothed to Aerys, their affair was over. Yet Barristan seems reluctant to offer more details about the nature of their relationship. It could be that at some point Aerys raped Joanna and she got pregnant and died while giving birth to Tyrion. Not to mention that Tyrion and Jon, despite the animosity between Starks and Lannisters, seem to get along very well. At some point Jon refers to Tyrion as his friend. And Tyrion introduces himself to Jon as a bastard. It is a theory but I like the idea that Jon is Rhaegar's, Tyrion is Aerys' just like Dany. The way I see it, Dany can fill the part of Aegon the Conqueror and the part Rhaenys and Visenya can be filled by Jon and Tyrion.

#60 Ser Endrew Tarth

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 08:50 AM

Snip... It is a theory but I like the idea that Jon is Rhaegar's, Tyrion is Aerys' just like Dany. The way I see it, Dany can fill the part of Aegon the Conqueror and the part Rhaenys and Visenya can be filled by Jon and Tyrion.


Hmmm, a reverse of Aegon the conqueror (1 male and 2 females), I like this, for some reason it makes sense.